xenophobia and irish identity

dr_manhattan

(dramatic title, but hey, maybe it'll attract attention ;-))

This is in response to a post by ray which I'll paste below:

" Do you believe as a nation we have trouble empathising with communities other than our own. By way of example, my uncle farms on the Dublin/Wicklow Border areas.

For years my dad was Garda in Ballymun during the late eighties and early nineties, these where horrendous times for the ordinary people of the city due to a completely out of control drug and organised crime problem. My uncle during this period was content to let 'Dubliners get on with it', 'no concern of his', he had very little concerns outside of farming.

Then this year Dublin has sprawled out to his community and the locals are suffering a sort of a crime wave. His complaints about the Garda doing nothing, it all being the government's fault met my bemused smile ... like are you expecting me to excited about your predicament now ?.

We where both equally at fault, do we as a nation have difficulty putting ourselves in the others position ? Is this the nature of our tribal politics"

Well, for starters, i very much agree: I've spent a lot of time explaining ideosyncracies of the way ireland works to friends of mine from abroad, and my own experiences lead me to give this type of parochial "those lads up the road are wild ****ers" attitude.

As I mentioned before, I am the only culchie in my family. My family was also borne of the marriage of a British soldier to a woman from a hardline republican family. At family get togethers, we did one side of the family at a time, they pretty much never mixed, and it never ceases to amaze me that both sides of the same problem (i.e. "provo gurriers" and "west brit bastards") would be discussed in front of both my father and mother by each side.

So having had both sides of a few divides all my life (such as being called a dub in the country and a culchie in dublin at school) it is a non-stop source of amazement to me that this country, which at its heart has a lot of ideas about unity and unification, of being separate from 'outside influences' (i.e. the brits) is, at heart, still a set of warring factions as it was before the Normans arrived.

One of the things I often explain to foreign friends is that irish people will heartily welcome those from thousands of miles away, warmly welcome people from europe, ambiguously welcome those from Britain, and actively hate those from 100 miles away. By the time the distance of origin is down to 10 miles down the road, we utterly despise each other.

And I think this is at the distressed, post colonial, slightly self hating, irish identity. We, as a recently establishjed country, don't know what we actually are. But we know what we're not. And we know what we hate, much better than we know what we love.

So without waxing any more dramatic, I'll make an exit, but there's a whole lot more I'd like to bring to this thread, if anyone's interested....?

cheers

simu

One of the things I often explain to foreign friends is that irish people will heartily welcome those from thousands of miles away, warmly welcome people from europe, ambiguously welcome those from Britain, and actively hate those from 100 miles away. By the time the distance of origin is down to 10 miles down the road, we utterly despise each other.

I don't really get what you mean by this, I've never experienced it - half my family is from Cork, the rest from Kerry but there's no animosity apart from the odd joke when the counties play each other in GAA.

The problem in Ireland is that everyone looks out for their selves and ppl they know - there's little wider civil spirit and ppl are only interested in problems that affect them directly. This is especially true in politics where TDs worry about their own constituencies and rarely try to improve things on a national level.

And I think this is at the distressed, post colonial, slightly self hating, irish identity. We, as a recently establishjed country, don't know what we actually are. But we know what we're not. And we know what we hate, much better than we know what we love.

So true, in general we're not confident about ourselves and focus too much on pointless stuff like trying not to be like the English whilst importing the worst parts of their culture (sports teams, rubbish soaps, tabloids etc).

Another example - I speak Irish and so many Irish ppl who don't get very odd when they hear this instead of just considering that it's just another language and that it's not weird that ppl should speak it.

This is an interesting topic, I hope more ppl post about it!

Specky

Actually you'd be very wrong if you thought this sort of "extreme localisation" didn't occur elsewhere.

Although there are quite distinct regional idiosycracies here in Ireland I don't think they are anywhere near as pronounced as they are in the UK.

Vastly differing accents and dialects exist side by side thoughout the country.

The Mancs (people from the city of Manchester, Salford and it's environs) hate the Scousers (people from the city of Liverpool and the county of Merseryside) , and Scousers dislike Mancs in equal amounts, despite the fact that they are seperated by only about 40 miles. In between the two are a mix of townspeople from places like Wigan, St.Helens, Widnes, Runcorn all of which have their own specific identities outside of the larger two. Fights between the children of neighbouring villages happen just because the two are different.

And this is not just a Liverpool/Manchester issue, it goes on all over the coutry. Lancashire/Yorkshire, Newcastle/Sunderland, North/South....

People from the town call people from the country "woolly backs", people from the country call people from everywhere else....."****" or something similar.

The "north/south divide" that is spoken about by some who discuss the socio-economic differences between towns and cities in the north of england as opposed to the south-east of england don't even begin to scratch the surface of the collective distrust, derision or outright hatred that is drummed into northern children at an early age when talking about their counterparts from the south.

The blokes are all softer, the women are ugly, the beer is weaker....I could go on.

I think something very similar has been discussed here before, probably talking about nationalism/patriotism. People seem to have this desire to say "I am one of us, you are one of them" that is all that is at the basis of national pride or patriotism, a will to belong to something...and that can be best expressed by pointing out those who are not part of this.

It is at the heart of all prejudice and is, in my view, the most distasteful aspect of the human character, holding us back from achieving our full potential as a result of our unwillingness to just get on.

Could you imagine what the North would be like if everybody would just stop all the pointless arguing and get on with their lives? So much wasted time and energy on something that only they think is important. Similarly can you imagine what it would be like for all the people who currently have to spend so much time and effort combating or avoiding the prejudices they are subjected to every day because of their age, sex, sexual orientation, colour, disability, accent, wealth, or whatever? (note I purposely missed out religion because all religions I know anything about are in themselves prejudiced and contribute more to the problem than they solve).


Back closer to the original subject I think there are some regional specifics of the Irish way of life that make it different however. I think people care a lot less for other people than they say they do. Many people are indeed compassionate, but I think they like to be seen to be doing the right thing more than they actually like to DO the right thing. It's a special kind of selfishness, I'm not well travelled enough to know if it exists anywere else in the world but it's certainly alive and well here.

gurramok

Then this year Dublin has sprawled out to his community and the locals are suffering a sort of a crime wave. His complaints about the Garda doing nothing, it all being the government's fault met my bemused smile ... like are you expecting me to excited about your predicament now ?.

My response to the uncle...Tough, get used to it.
Garda doing nothing at all is commonplace for the 20 years i've been around in my area of Dublin.
Your right about how some irish people do not know how others live a few miles down the road and might hate them for it. Some of it is called snobbery and ignorance

skipn_easy

Interestiong topic.

Originally posted by Specky

I think people care a lot less for other people than they say they do. Many people are indeed compassionate, but I think they like to be seen to be doing the right thing more than they actually like to DO the right thing. It's a special kind of selfishness, I'm not well travelled enough to know if it exists anywere else in the world but it's certainly alive and well here.

As a half english, half irish kid growing up in a small rural irish community our family was never fully accepted into the community and it was easier to see some of the things going on in the village. So many people did or said things because they were worried about what the rest of them would think or because they would be thought of as a better person. People would compete against each other to see who could be the best person - this kind of competitiveness sickens me because that shouldn't be the reason for helping other people - it shouldn't be about earning points and getting something in return.

It seems to be much more common in the country than in the city though. I'm not very widely travelled and only have 4 years experience of living in the city, but it seems to be less restricted by the above conditions. If you don't want to do something in the city you don't have to do it, cos no one will give a toss either way, which means that when people actually talk to you or help you out they will be more genuine and you can feel more secure about their motives.

I sometimes think its a shame that Irish people have got such a good name for themselves for being welcoming, friendly and caring when once you've been living here for a while you find out that its all on the surface. Foreigners rarely have anything to complain about when it comes to hospitality etc. but neighbours and family can have huge rifts between them for silly insignificant reasons that I can't understand.

Specky

We are of a similar mind on this topic skip.

Like I said, I think something very similar to this thread has gone before and I do recall recounting my belief that the majority of the time the "Land of a thousand welcomes" thing actually translates into "Land of the be nice to the foriegn gentleperson so we can screw the gob****e without them realising".

Like your experience of saving face in front of the community I think there's also a denial of truth factor that has contributed a lot to the scandals of the recent past. People in small rural communities know everything that is going on within them but they won't talk about anything that they know is wrong.

My wife's father was an out and out ba$tard, and I mean a complete and utter ba$tard. He subjected the entire family to the most severe physical and mental abuse during his life, made the family's lives a misery and did everything he could to make sure that when he died nobody could get their hands on what he'd kept from them all his life. He didn't even leave the family home to his wife and the kids ended up having to chip together to keep the house for her. Everyone knows what he was like but you still get people coming up to you in the pub and telling you what a great man he was...and you're not allowed to turn around and say "no he wasn't, he was a wanker".

People don't seem to be able to put themselves in anyone else's shoes. That's why rules are so flagrantly ignored in Ireland. Anything from wear a seatbelt, to keep inside the speed limit to don't smoke in the pub to form an orderly queue....forget it, I'm going to do what suits me and bugger what the consequences are for anyone else.

If I don't give a $hite about the person sitting next to me in the pub why the feck should I care about anyone in another county?

:mad: with a touch of verging on

skipn_easy

I'm curious to know why we're like this in ireland and if its the same in other countries but we just don't notice it because we don't live there. I think religion might well have something to do with it. The local priest telling them thats what they should do, not admitting when wrong things are happening, flaunting the law because its ok as long as you repent afterwards, rebelling against authority....

i really hope these kind of attitudes disappear soon or i'll be looking for somewhere else to live.

Specky

Well the catholic religion particularly seems to be built on guilt and shame. Make the lowly populace believe they're constantly in the wrong, force them to tell you everything you consider to be wrong in a little wooden hut once a week then tell them how evil they are and how ashamed they should be of themselves.

Repression through which was achieved control.

You expect to find chanting, ritualised hand waving, bell ringing and thought control...all of which are state sponsored...with the national broadcaster sending out signals to remind the masses of their places twice a day in some Orwellian novel, not in a 21st century western country.

dr_manhattan

aha, cool, some good responses here:

first off, specky, you make some good points, but I have to say, that first post about it being the same in the UK - I am so tired of this. Any time anyone in ireland talks about our worst traits, this whole "but sure they're the same in the UK" thing comes up.

Personally, I don't care, because I was looking to discuss Irish traits, and not what traits we share with the english. The main way in which Irish people show themselves up again and again as utterly post-colonially fixated is to reflexively point the finger at the UK.

Fact is, the UK and Ireland, due to a common system of government up until 80 years ago, are pretty much a case in point (unpopular as the idea is that the two countries are similar socially, unfortunately if you add/remove video gambling from the pubs we're damn similar) as regards social attitudes which come from a feudal, divide-and-conquer regime.

The lack of civic spirit, the levels of alcoholism, the self hatred (manifested in such areas as spousal abuse, high suicide rates, a sprinkling of racist subtext, public facilities vandalism etc etc.) the intense regionalisation: these come from an 800 year parochial history. Except from the 1900s onwards, the UK has been absorbing some of its colonial legacy in the form of mixed asian, indian, arab and caribbean immigration, which has taken the edge off a bit, where we have not.

Or so I say, anyways ;-)

Specky, you also say -

" People don't seem to be able to put themselves in anyone else's shoes. That's why rules are so flagrantly ignored in Ireland. Anything from wear a seatbelt, to keep inside the speed limit to don't smoke in the pub to form an orderly queue....forget it, I'm going to do what suits me and bugger what the consequences are for anyone else."

Exactly. I have worked with people in a number of countries in europe, and never seen the blind contempt for everyone else that people in Ireland develop: but the strange thing is, *everyone* here has it.

Even when I've worked freelance, people won't even ****ing PAY you if they don't have to - yet if you don't pay them they cry holy murder and you are treated to a list of wrongdoings they've had.

Rich or poor, irish people have an idea that everything has been set up to trick or trap them: any new social ideas are assessed for any idea that they might 'come from england' or somehow 'think they're great' - People from a mile away, just because their needs affect ours, become gob****es in a few minutes, and within hours the reasons for their gob****ehood has been given: they 'think they're great' or something childish like that.

In fact I'd go even further and say most irish people think the world revolves around them, in a way that most inhabitants of financialy supported island backwaters rarely do: I can recall occasions where friends of mine have been asked "what they mean" when they've mentioned where there from: examples include "whaddya mean you're from ****ing denmark?" - and if that'\s not self centered, I dunno what is...

Another aspect of this irish me fein-er attitude comes in terms of irelands other notorious export: social problems such as addiction, violence, etc.

In the pub: if someone won't have a drink, they're somehow suspect. If they drink excessively, they're great fun, until they develop a problem, in which instance nobody wants to know: but nobody will ever tell them they have a problem until it's way out of control. As someone posted above, ireland has all the social customs to grow its own monsters, but no mechanism to deal with them once they're up and running.

Violent bastards become eulogised as "big men" - women (girls, children) die behind grottoes or whilst attempting to give birth, alone. Children are abused (and sexual abuse is not the only form of abuse in a society where 'go on ya bollicks' is supposedly a term of affection) and then when they develop problems they are discarded...

Triabl isn't the word: I think ireland's bloodyminded self righteous 'oh but we had so many woes for so long so we can act whatever way we like' bull**** needs to be called, bigtime, and we all need to start taking the responsibility for our own actions and trying to understand our supposed brethren....

dr_manhattan

Incidentally...

seeing as most of this post is anecdotal, here's some stories of mine / my mates:

A well known case in the north east of a head teacher who was physically terrorising his pupils: a good friend of mine and his brothers were eventually moved out of the school by their mother, a teacher in the school who tried to combat this headmasters brutality. Unfortunately he was protected in his position as scumbag abuser. At once stage in her campaign, she had a huge petition signed by locals, which was thrown in the fire by a fellow teacher, on the grounds that it would 'bring adverse attention' to the school (the injuries inflicted on the kids were rgularly extreme: the psychological damage, as always much deeper)

Years later, having effectively ostracised the family, the same schoolteacher approached their mother saying she 'had to help'.....? with the issue of removing this man. He was removed eventually, but without the help of my friends mother who by then had enough on her hands.

For my own story, I was brutalised by a national school teacher in my childhood in the south east: to be quite honest, I have actually contacted people through the web to check if my memories of the brutality were correct, cos sometimes they just seem so over the top I think i must have imagined them...

Either way, this vindictive bastard played a daily game by which the person who got in his bad books that day had to go get his briefcase from his car. This involved a trek out of the school grounds and across a main 4 lane road to his car and back again. One rainy, windy day, the kid in question, the headmaster's son, was hit by a car (somehow, his 6 year old sense of perspective failed him in the low visibility ;-)) and severely injured (broke and arm, a leg, 5 teeth gone and fractured his skull, as I recall)

Despite this, his alcoholism, repeated violent episodes in and out of school, and a drink driving record as long as your arm, that bastard has, until recently, continued to work in his job. Nobody in that town spoke out about this violence, least of all my folks who felt intimidated due to my Da's ex-UK-army status (yeah, there was lots of that **** too)

...so anyways, just to underline, this country does have a sickness in that sense. Somehow, post feudalism and mistrust of our fellow islanders has lead us to a society where nobody will stick their head up for anything.

And although this **** is more *obvious* in rural areas, I see it a lot around me in central dublin, too. I recently was burgled and got my stuff back in the same day, thanks to some well placed bribery of local kids and some footwork.

The kids who did my house over were 14 and 13, and everybody knew who they were when I asked ("oh them? They're little bastards they are") yet nobody gave the slightest **** about them - I'm not being bleeding heart about this, but it was suggested so many times that they should be shot (not by the cops who I must say were more understanding than I thought) that it began to make me sick to hear it: "they should be shot, them two"

Yet half the people saying this had bought some of my stuff from the kids: as long as the kids are bringing them low cost gear, then it's fine, but as soon as the idea of taking care of them and seeing what they're at comes up, then they should be shot?

As some of my friends from the states would say, "that's cold, man"

Anyways, just ranting on again ;-)

cheers

Specky

first off, specky, you make some good points, but I have to say, that first post about it being the same in the UK - I am so tired of this. Any time anyone in ireland talks about our worst traits, this whole "but sure they're the same in the UK" thing comes up.

Actually I wasn't trying to say "sure they're the same in the UK"...because they aren't. The only element of the point that I was trying to illustrate was that the regionalisation of people is at least the same and possibly worse. The disregard for other people, I would say, is not the way it is here.

People in the UK are generally law abiding (not perfect, not calm peaceful angels that wouldn't say boo to a goose, but they generally obey the law reasonably unquestioningly).

What I sometimes find quite shocking here is that even the most innocent seeming members of the community will openly break laws/rules without hesitation if they think they can get away with it, and if they're caught then they either just act dumb or get annoyed.

I take as a really simple example double parking. Who, with the slightest sense of courtesy to the remainder of the human race would park their vehicle blocking one carriageway of the main road through a town in the middle of ruch hour so they can nip in somewhere to do "da lotto" and have a quick chat with Paddy? Who? As far as I can tell, pretty much anyone...but sit in a the traffic jam caused by such a selfish tw@t with the same person driving and just listen to the curses....

Laws are great, and the prospect of someone breaking them is totally outrageous to the average Irish citizen....unless the same outraged citizen can get away with the same thing themselves. "Cute whore" syndrome. People are actually admired for it.

A Gard I spoke to about this a little while ago described the Irish citizen as having "a healthy disrespect for the law". I'm not sure if the post colonial argument is a good enough excuse, it does indeed get held up as a reason for an awful lot of the crap that goes on here. I think you're right that there is a fair degree of self pity fueling some of the problems, I also think there are some very unrealistic attitudes kicking around.

It doesn't seem to matter what you talk about but someone will pipe up that "the Irish one is the best in the world". Education system, police force, judicial system, system of governance etc etc when it clearly is not the case. I'm sorry but how come everybody harps on about Paddy building all the world's railways, roads, canals etc etc but we can't even build one little 2 lane motorway in this country without screwing it up?? If we can't build a road how can we claim to have got our act together on the eminantly more sophisticated task of developing our legal and policing infra-structure or our educational system? Sure, it's not perfect elsewhere but people elsewhere are making the same claims to greatness that the Irish do.

I'm ranting a little too now I think so it's probably time to shut up.

By the way, even here on Boards I have been told to shut up in the past (by moderators no less) for expressing my opinions. No reasoned argument, no extended debate, just told to "shut up". Indemic within Irish society then it would seem that if you don't agree with what you're hearing you stifle the debate.

simu

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this country has many problems.

But, does anyone have any idea how these attitudes could be changed, even a little bit?

How long will it take?

dr_manhattan

change wha? how long? Ah wait a minute, I thought we could just bitch and moan here, i didn't know it was required that we propose solutions...? lol

Specky, I get your points and I wouldn't worry about ranting, i just dropped two consecutive windy posts there... so here's another rant ;-)

As regards a post colonial issues, allow me to explain: the irish mentality never struck me as especially postcolonial until I got to know other countries that suffer the same syndromes: as an example, let's take african americans, and let's talk in the same endemic stereotypes as we talk about the irish:

the african american community in the states, just like the irish community worldwide, has earned a reputation for familial irresponsibility, domestic violence, substance abuse and criminality: and their community still struggles to deal with both these issues and the stereotypes that result from them.

And IMHO, the root cause is the same: the black experience in the US is much more extreme than ours, and we have had control of our own for 80 years now, whereas it's arguable that, even 40 years after civil rights, most people of colour in the US have really much authority at all over their own lives: But it comes down to disenfranchisement, and the mechanics of not owning your own life or making the choices that control your life fully.

it's the same reason why people who get slung in low income housing and forgotten about wind up vandalising and destroying their environment: logically speaking, they should take care of the 'little they have', but actually, frustration and misery will out somewhere, it cannot be contained.

And in this same way, we abuse our own bodies with ridiculous drinking levels (alcohol the colonial control device, AKA crack 0.1b), we allow a society to exist where nothing is respected except priests robes, we allow thieves to govern us, and we (almost subconsciously) place ourselves last in the equation every time. Even our public works people insist on destroying our cities, for crying out loud.

And it is simply because we have only had our own country for 80 years and we are too collectively immature to deal with it. This is why colonialism, and the indenture and slavery that comes from it, is a bad thing, and it is also why colonial countries, when 'freed', rarely jump to excellence immediately, and have a period where they (we) simply fight each other as the most contemptible enemy available.

Now, don't get me wrong, I am not blaming 'the brits' for our worst tendencies, FAR from it, but i am saying that people, when they see themselves as unimportant (and to be irish up until the 70s and 80s was very much that: 3rd world residence) , and see themselves as hard done by, refuse to abide by ideas of civic cooperation and they simply look out for their own ass. It seems to me to be a global phenomenon. parents pass on their contempt for their surroundings to kids with their mothers milk.

The reason we can't get our act together to behave is because only 100 years ago, 'behaving' was a form of collaboration with the colonial 'enemy', and we are still breeding this idea out of us: any time someone suggests anything different we sneer, like teenage kids when someone tells them to behave. Our entire society is structured like a schoolbus, with the only real comment being from the back seats.

Now, I don't really have time to cover all aspects of this, and one thing I certainly don't want is to be misread as saying "the irish are the blacks of europe, we've been done wrong, we can't be expected to..." yadayadyada: to be honest, I think we've had it ****ing easy the past 15 years, and it's time for us to grow up and start acting our age. And comparison with the plight of *any* enslaved ethnic group is stupid - all I'm trying to show here is that there are parallels.

I think one of ther biggest problems is we're so immature that we want to think we act like ****ers because we *choose* to - like an addict in denial who pretends he likes the taste of booze - and so therefore we resist thinking of our culture (and what else do we identify ourselves with except booze and anger) as a syndrome...

but i do believe it's the case: not so evident now (and I do believe within 40 years or so we'll have bred it out of us and be able to respect our surroundings) but rooted in a past where the phrase "what did anyone ever do for me" had no answer around here.

So maybe that's my answer as far as 'how can this change' - but I'm not sure. maybe if I stopped just ranting i might be able to propose some solutions ;-)

no chance o that though ;-)

Specky

That's an interesting and very plausible bit of analysis there Doc.

Touching on something you said and addressing Simu's question do you think that it will happen in 4o years?

There was an interesting point I heard on the radio the other day regarding this issue of the GAA renting out Croak Park to the government so that they could use it for soccer, rugby and Britney Spears...someone from the GAA objected to the idea saying that under this scheme it could be that the English soccer team could be there playing against Ireland on the same pitch where British troops rode in an shot spectators only 80 years ago...

...someone else then pointed out that in 1966, just 21 years after the German airforce had bombed the crap out of London, Germany played England in Wembley and no-one raised an eyebrow....ok, actually I think a lot of people raised eyebrows but no-one actually tried to stop it from happening just because they were the Germans.

I agree that Irish culture is likely to dilute rapidly over the next 40 years and I would dearly hope to see an improvement in things during my lifetime (and I have to point out that in 40 years I will have had more than my alloted three score years and ten) for the sake of my kids, but I can't help but be pessimistic given the boost to selfishness the celtic tiger economy has provided over the last few years.

dr_manhattan

Funny ya know specky, I was having a conversation about this the other night -

(PS before I continue that is such an excellent point re: the GAA's "it's our field" routine and the UK/germany match - though i was fully compus of both sets of facts, I never thought of how they work as an argument like that - I'm sure the GAA would argue though that the massacre was conducted by an occupying force, yadayada, but I bet there's been a lot of cricket matches in india in much shorter order after much bigger massacres... either way, good point)

Anyways, with regard to my somewhat arbitrary '40 years' idea.. well, it's like this: the progress we make as a species seems to be accellerating in all areas, my general soap box of 'look at what we've accomplished since 1945' comes in handy here, but with a specific focus on Ireland:

first off, "look at the progress we've made since 1945" ;-)

Seriously though, *none* of the social changes (women in the workplace, liberated ideas of social interaction, progressive ideas of national identity, etc.) that are characteristic of the postwar period have any origins in ireland. Not the turn towards a global rather than secular view. Not the feminist/post feminist agenda. Not the new languages of international design and communication. Not the technological innovation.

All these postwar things have happened somewhere else, and yet we have absorbed them to such a degree that in the past 5 years we have come to a point where we almost resemble our neighbours, which if you think about it, have nothing in common with us historically. We are moving towards the kind of social maturity that our 1000 year olf, nation state, imperialist european neighbours have, from being a third world country 15 years ago - this is no mean feat, though it is easy to forget.

Much as we resisted change, much as condoms were still illegal in 1988, much as the church has held on as a blindfold in every aspect of our society, much as we retain bigotry which shocks other nations, and hard as it has been to establish common ground in the north, our progression has been phenomenal - it's all very well to joke now about prods having eyes too close together or lesbians having horns on their heads but people used to BELIEVE this ****e, which is important.

I can clearly recall a time when no gay friends of mine could show affection in public, where people were assaulted for being english (and once, german) or just funny lookin' where the priest's word counted for everything and most of all, where everyone in this country was a 100% ugly whiteperson, and nobody had any need for or interest in anything more - and yet a huge amount of this has disappeared in just 5-10 years.

And really, all the stimulus we've required for this change is a couple of playstations and some decent TV, heh - cos I certainly don't see our governments uplifting us to new social levels: if anything, it seems to be the job of the irish to uplift their ****ing government ;-)

Now given the way that things work, and the fundamental resilience and adaptability of people, I think 40 years will see a vast change. 1945 - 1985 happened with no internet, no immigrant population, no social mix, no interest in or from the outside world and yet still we've managed 1993-2003 after a preceding 40 years of **** all progress.

I really think that once people start to adapt in this manner they don't slack off or slow down, the progress is inevitable.

And I think that with the catholic church / fundamentalists of all types off our backs to a degree, this process can only speed up. It's just very easy (and very irish) to look forward and say we're all ****ed: as I have said above, we should by NO means be patting each other on the back, but we are definitely moving, I'll say that.

(and maybe in doing so I'm directly contradicting something i said above, i dunno, heh)

And I also believe that one of the greatest crimes of our society is to constantly assure us through communication media, education and general bull****, that people are the weak, dumb portion of society while rules and institutions are the strong, complex side which holds everything together: actually if you look objectively, people are much faster leaners than institutions and, when given the chance and the raw materials, always make great things.

Note the words *chance* and *raw materials* are key here ;-)

I do believe that there'll be as much problems as there are now in 40 years, fair enough. But I also firmly believe that, in one way or another, they will be new problems, replacing problems from today that we've dealt with.

My essential point being that we've only finally managed to loosen the grip of the church and the civil war on our collective way of thinking - and with those two influencesa gone, and no more lunatics trying to convince us the De Valera was jesus or that Ann ****ing Summers is the antichrist our potential, like the potential of all nations, is limitless - selfish celtic tiger **** or not.

'cos after all, pick a society to aspire to, and you'll find they have to tolerate the greedy just like we all do, and that even carrying the fattest filthiest pigs on our backs like parasites, the human race is still, however slowly, moving forward...

Here endeth the early morning rant, ahem ;-)

simu

I think Irish society will change too. For example, at the moment, most Irish politicians are not very well educated which is not surprising when you consider that few people went to uni when they were growing up. So, I hope ppl who get into politics from my generation (20s) will be better-educated and more open to new, complex ideas. Then again, when I take a look at the ppl involved in Young Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael at uni, I despair of this ever happening unless those two parties are overtaken by others.

We might come to be more open about sexuality when parents will no longer be able to say that for their generation, the norm was to remain virgins until marriage.

You're right, outside influences will continue to have an effect on this country - I hope it's a good one though and that we don't become Sky-adicted eternal consumers. I also think the current practise of relegating poorer sections of society to ghettos in the cities where poor education and life-long unemployment are the norm is very worrying and the present government dosen't seem to care one bit - being pesimistically optimistic, maybe people will realise that such areas inevitably produce criminals and that it would be in their own best interest to call on politicians to set up schemes to minimalise this.

Exit

Going back to a point made earlier...

The word that most frequently enters my mind when I think of Irish society is 'lawlessness' (if that is an actual word) Nobody wants to follow any laws or rules. When is the last time you went upstairs on a bus, and there wasn't somebody smoking? Nobody has any respect for their own areas (littering, etc. This year, a nice new Civic Centre building was built in a very bad area near me, and within weeks it had graffiti on it. You'd think these people would be happy that somebody was investing new infrastructure in their area.) and if they don't have respect for the areas they live in, how can we expect them to have respect for the 'snobby pricks' down the road?

simu

This year, a nice new Civic Centre building was built in a very bad area near me, and within weeks it had graffiti on it. You'd think these people would be happy that somebody was investing new infrastructure in their area.) and if they don't have respect for the areas they live in, how can we expect them to have respect for the 'snobby pricks' down the road?

Having been downtrodden for decades they don't know how to respond when something positive actually happens.

dr_manhattan

I'll agree with simu on the answer to that: I think on a larger scale, the whole country is recovering from being a larger version of oneof those 'bad areas' being discussed: our own inability to deal with respecting our environment is a more general version of graffiti on public buildings.

But i have to say, a latin translation of rudolph the red nosed reindeer is the classest thing I've seen this xmas, props to simu for that as well.

Now, as my girlfriend has recently been hopitalised with a lifethreatening illness (NOT kidding) I'll bid this thread adieu and perhaps return in the new year with good news and a fresh aspect.

Happy xmas to all of yz, and take it from me, DON'T argue with your loved ones over christmas, from a perspective of hospitalisation it just isn't ****ing worth it.

peace and goodwill