Carry your licence.

BogoBot

So I'm driving down the road and happen across a Garda checkpoint.

Guard stops me, checks tax, insurance, NCT, reg, my face, tax, NCT, face
(and so on).
Finally, gestures for me to roll down the window and asks if I have my
licence with me. I say its in the boot and I'll get it right away, popping
seat belt in the process. Guard then informs me that I'm committing an
offence for not carrying my licence.

Discuss.

RicardoSmith

Is that a true story? Or just a theoretical one? Not sure what the letter of the law is but either way its farcial. Sounds like guard was having a bad day and needed someone to pick on to be honest. Has happened to me in the past before.

Mick L

Did the Garda explain where exactly the licence has to be in order for you to have it on you? I thought that as long as you could produce it it would be sufficient.

I also hope that the Garda told you this in a 'Well technically' kind of way but didn't take it any further.

woosaysdan

Originally posted by Mick L
Did the Garda explain where exactly the licence has to be in order for you to have it on you? I thought that as long as you could produce it it would be sufficient.

yeah thats what i thought too

Big al

the gardai are just the the uniformed arm of the revenue commissioners, i dont have any time for them. more than once i have told them out straight lets see what a judge will think, and they normally back down. A bit of confidence when dealing with the guards goes a long way (and a good solicitor).

And No, i have yet to get a point or a fine

an_taoiseach

Seems more than a bit rough, still it keeps the boys in blue busy and out of trouble

I've been carrying mine around since the start of the year. Its more or less in bits now ( what will it be like in another 4 years time ? ).

What ever happened to Shamie Brennans plan to provide credit card style DLs ?

Think I saw him go to tender ( on etenders ) in the summer

No result ?

Its gonna be a big problem if we are all left with just the paper version.


An T

woosaysdan

Originally posted by an_taoiseach
Seems more than a bit rough, still it keeps the boys in blue busy and out of trouble

I've been carrying mine around since the start of the year. Its more or less in bits now ( what will it be like in another 4 years time ? ).

What ever happened to Shamie Brennans plan to provide credit card style DLs ?

Think I saw him go to tender ( on etenders ) in the summer

No result ?

Its gonna be a big problem if we are all left with just the paper version.


An T

yeah i heard about the credit card style DL and imo the sooner the better!

Riamfada

if you get stoped and can't produce your DL then you have ten days to produce it at a Garda station of your choice otherwise you face a court summons.

Our man in Havana

Originally posted by Big al
the gardai are just the the uniformed arm of the revenue commissioners, i dont have any time for them. more than once i have told them out straight lets see what a judge will think, and they normally back down. A bit of confidence when dealing with the guards goes a long way (and a good solicitor).

And No, i have yet to get a point or a fine

I would agree with you Big al. Got stopped for "speeding" a few weeks ago. Garda said I was doing around 40! I asked him for the exact speed and to see the readout on the meter. He mumbled and looked uneasy and said watch your speed in future. Turns out that there was no reading on the meter. Seems they will chance anything these days.

seamus

Click
Above is the relevant part of the road traffic act, 1994, which was only enacted this year.

You only need to be able to produce your licence. Whether this is from your pocket, your glove compartment, your boot, or out of your arse, is irrelevant. If you can produce it when asked for it, you're fine.

Probably best to print out a copy of it and carry it with your licence

(Never knew about having to carry it while accompanying provisional drivers. Now I'll have to carry 2 around with me )

the evil belly

Originally posted by Bond-James Bond
I would agree with you Big al. Got stopped for "speeding" a few weeks ago. Garda said I was doing around 40! I asked him for the exact speed and to see the readout on the meter. He mumbled and looked uneasy and said watch your speed in future. Turns out that there was no reading on the meter. Seems they will chance anything these days.

if memory serves i think you can also ask to see the calibration sheet for that device. i think it has to have been calibrated for accuracy in the last 24 hours

Borzoi

Originally posted by BogoBot
. Guard then informs me that I'm committing an
offence for not carrying my licence.

"Well gaurd if you want to tie yourself and myself up testing a point of law, go right ahead. But in the meantime can I have your number please"

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by seamus
Click
Above is the relevant part of the road traffic act, 1994, which was only enacted this year.

You only need to be able to produce your licence. Whether this is from your pocket, your glove compartment, your boot, or out of your arse, is irrelevant. If you can produce it when asked for it, you're fine.

Probably best to print out a copy of it and carry it with your licence

(Never knew about having to carry it while accompanying provisional drivers. Now I'll have to carry 2 around with me )

Why 2?

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by Borzoi
"Well gaurd if you want to tie yourself and myself up testing a point of law, go right ahead. But in the meantime can I have your number please"

True but he'll do you for dangerous driving then...

Our man in Havana

Originally posted by Borzoi
"Well gaurd if you want to tie yourself and myself up testing a point of law, go right ahead. But in the meantime can I have your number please"

Would make a story if you could get a district court judge to send it to the high court as a case stated.

LFCFan

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
Why 2?

I guess one for your car and one for your person. It's rediculous to demand you always have your license if they're not gonna give us CC styles Licenses. You'd swear it was difficult or something.

Here we have paper licenses that take ages to produce, 8 month waiting lists to get tested and no road traffic police force. In America you can do your test everyday, you get your CC style license on the spot along (and a personalised license plate for $5 if you want) and a whole force dedicated to traffic control. And people try to say Ireland is a progressive country in tune with the 21st century? My Ar$e!!!

Doctor J

Originally posted by LFCFan

Here we have paper licenses that take ages to produce, 8 month waiting lists to get tested

I sent away my test appication on the 3rd of January 1998 and had my test on the 24th December 1998. 8 months me arse, if you're lucky

seamus

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
Why 2?

Provisional bike licence, full car licence. I usually end up biking to someone's house, and having to accompany them in their car...

BogoBot

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
Is that a true story? Or just a theoretical one? Not sure what the letter of the law is but either way its farcial. Sounds like guard was having a bad day and needed someone to pick on to be honest. Has happened to me in the past before.

Yep its true.

Road Traffic Act, 2002 says it's an offence under section
40 of Road Traffic Act, 1961
(http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/gen142002a.html).

Road Traffic Act, 1961 says:

<>
40.?(1) ( a ) A member of the Garda S?och?na may demand, of a person
driving in a public place a mechanically propelled vehicle or
accompanying pursuant to regulations under this Act the holder of a
provisional licence while such holder is driving in a public place a
mechanically propelled vehicle, the production of a driving licence then
having effect and licensing him to drive the vehicle, and if such person
refuses or fails to produce the licence, there and then, he shall,
unless within ten days after the date on which the production was
demanded he produces such licence in person to a member of the Garda
S?och?na at a Garda S?och?na, station to be named by such person at the
time at which the production was so demanded, be guilty of an offence.

<>

So it would appear that the consensus in here and the law are in agreement and the guard was incorrect. Just thought that you guys might want to look out for this given the time of year that is in it.

Ironically, I've always carried my licence with me as HGV drivers are required to (and have been for years)

Bogobot.

LFCFan

Originally posted by Doctor J
I sent away my test appication on the 3rd of January 1998 and had my test on the 24th December 1998. 8 months me arse, if you're lucky

Time Travel ay!

I think 8 months is the average. When you consider you can just walk in off the street in the states and do your test anytime you want it makes a complete mockery of the Irish licensing system.

Victor

Originally posted by BogoBot
Yep its true.

Road Traffic Act, 2002 says it's an offence under section
40 of Road Traffic Act, 1961
(http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/gen142002a.html).

Road Traffic Act, 1961 says:
......

So it would appear that the consensus in here and the law are in agreement and the guard was incorrect. Just thought that you guys might want to look out for this given the time of year that is in it.

Ironically, I've always carried my licence with me as HGV drivers are required to (and have been for years)

This appears to have been amended by ROAD TRAFFIC ACT, 2002 SECTION 18 - "the Principal Act" means the Road Traffic Act, 1961.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZA12Y2002S18.html

Amendment of section 40 of Principal Act.

18.—Section 40 of the Principal Act (as inserted by the Act of 1994) is hereby amended by the insertion after subsection (1) of the following subsections:

"(1A) (a) A member of the Garda Síochána may demand of a person who is driving in a public place a mechanically propelled vehicle and is not the holder of a driving licence the production to him or her of a provisional licence then having effect and licensing the person to drive the vehicle, and if the person refuses or fails so to produce the licence and is a person falling within section 35(1) of this Act, he or she shall be guilty of an offence.

(b) References in paragraphs (b), (c), and (d) of subsection (1), and in the subsequent subsections of this section to a driving licence shall be construed, in relation to a person specified in subsection (1) who is a person falling within the said section 35(1), as references to a provisional licence.

(1B) Where a person who is driving in a public place a mechanically propelled vehicle and of whom the production of a driving licence is demanded under paragraph (a) of subsection (1) of this section or is required under paragraph (b) of that subsection produces, in accordance with the demand or request, a provisional licence then having effect and licensing the person to drive the vehicle concerned—

(a) the person shall not be guilty of an offence under the said paragraph (a) or, as the case may be, the said paragraph (b), and

(b) paragraph (d) of that subsection shall be construed, in relation to any production of the provisional licence in accordance with the said paragraph (b), as if the references in the said paragraph (d) to a driving licence were references to a provisional licence."

The option to have 10 days grace is removed.

Our man in Havana

But It dosent not specify that the licence must be on the person, or where within a vehicle that it must be. I would summise that it would be reasonable to get it from the boot of the car to show to a garda.

And if he/she wasnt happy with that I would let a judge decide. And if nesscessary have the case stated to the high court for their opinion.

Peace

No it doesn't say that the licence must be on the persons possesions so technically i would say that the Gard was wrong telling you its an offence to have it in the boot.

Also that speeding catch is a god thing to remember....ask to see the readout and or the calibration sheet for the radar unit. Might get you out of some tight spots.

Victor

Originally posted by Peace
No it doesn't say that the licence must be on the persons possesions so technically i would say that the Gard was wrong telling you its an offence to have it in the boot.

I concur, whats the difference between "let me reach into the glove compartment" and "let me reach into the boot"?

LFCFan

the garda was obviously just being a pr!ck. Wouldn't be the first time

dogs

Originally posted by the evil belly
if memory serves i think you can also ask to see the calibration sheet for that device. i think it has to have been calibrated for accuracy in the last 24 hours

Heh. If only...

That may be the case in the UK but most certainly isn't here. Infact the law specifically states:

21.—(1) The onus of establishing prima facie proof of a constituent of an offence committed after the commencement of this section (including the speed at which a person, whether the accused or another person, was driving) .... discharged by ... electronic or other apparatus (including a camera) ... and it shall not be necessary to prove that the electronic or other apparatus was accurate or in good working order.

From http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZA12Y2002S21.html


Scary stuff. There is no analogy I can give that is worse than the text of that act :eek:

Our man in Havana

Originally posted by dogs
Heh. If only...

That may be the case in the UK but most certainly isn't here. Infact the law specifically states:



From http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZA12Y2002S21.html


Scary stuff. There is no analogy I can give that is worse than the text of that act :eek:

So that the act says that a garda can do you for doing say 60 in a 30mph by using a device that is out of calibration and you can not do a thing about it.

What I read from this is that they (Gardai) dont have to give evidence of accuarcy or calibration in court to prove an offence but an accused person can use evidence of non calibration or accuracy as a defence to a charge of speeding. Therefore you can ask them for the information ie calibration sheets, name of device and serial number.

Otherwise that section of the act would be found to be unconsituional and we would be living in a country akin to Nazi Germany.

Victor

Originally posted by Bond-James Bond
So that the act says that a garda can do you for doing say 60 in a 30mph by using a device that is out of calibration and you can not do a thing about itt.

The legal presumption is the equipment is calibrated, consequently onus of proof of non-calibration lies with the defendant.

Seth Brundle

Originally posted by Bond-James Bond
Otherwise that section of the act would be found to be unconsituional and we would be living in a country akin to Nazi Germany.

I think thats the way M. McDowell would like it

originally posted by Victor
The legal presumption is the equipment is calibrated, consequently onus of proof of non-calibration lies with the defendant.

That is the typical situation of our legislators being removed from reality.


Does anyone know how frequently they are calibrated?

DMC

Originally posted by kbannon
I think thats the way M. McDowell would like it
That is the typical situation of our legislators being removed from reality.


Does anyone know how frequently they are calibrated?

Every 5 years or so....

No. Wait, you are talking about speed guns..... No idea then!

/me gets his coat...

an_taoiseach

LOL @ DMC

I'm sure the cabinet are looking at ways of extending the 5 year recalibration ( for the sake of efficient government )

( not that I have any inside knowledge )


An T



( DMC, is your avatar King Dog ? / Top Dog ?. Hope you dont run in to http://www.dfcom.freeserve.co.uk/hbw/images/top_cat_comic1.jpg )

Emboss

Originally posted by BogoBot
So I'm driving down the road and happen across a Garda checkpoint.

Guard stops me, checks tax, insurance, NCT, reg, my face, tax, NCT, face
(and so on).
Finally, gestures for me to roll down the window and asks if I have my
licence with me. I say its in the boot and I'll get it right away, popping
seat belt in the process. Guard then informs me that I'm committing an
offence for not carrying my licence.

Discuss.

How do they define carrying it ?

surley holding it in your hand while driving would be under dangerous driving ?

Our man in Havana

Does anyone know how frequently they are calibrated?

Depends on the device used,

Radar Speed Guns are calibrated every day.
Laser Speed Guns are calibrated every 6 months. There is a tag on them to indicate the date and place of calibration.

Seth Brundle

Originally posted by Bond-James Bond
Depends on the device used,

Radar Speed Guns are calibrated every day.
Laser Speed Guns are calibrated every 6 months. There is a tag on them to indicate the date and place of calibration.

Are these figures the manufacturers recommendations or the Garda implementation of them?
How do they calibrate them? Is it the garda that does it or are they left in with qualified technicians?

Our man in Havana

Originally posted by kbannon
Are these figures the manufacturers recommendations or the Garda implementation of them?
How do they calibrate them? Is it the garda that does it or are they left in with qualified technicians?

Radar guns are done by tuning forks daily by the patrol. There are specialy made tuning forks for eg 40mph and the device is tested against these.

Lasers and Cameras have to be tested by the manufactuer every 6 months. See links below for calibration certs for the South Africa police.

Laser
Camera

NETKING

I am a garda and well can offer what the garda position is. The law states that you must carry your D/L at all times but sure this is not always the case. If a person has not got it on them they have 10 days to produce it at a station they pick. If they don't the summones they get are failing to produce a d/l, failing to produce an insurance cert, no D/L no insurance and failing to carry on them a valid D/L thay are nasty ones to get but we never would do a person for not having it on them as long as they produce within the 10 days. As for the speeding you may ask to check to see if the speed gun is calibrated but thats only if you contest it in Court and its not wise they are always calibrated lol. So if your done best smile and admit cos in court its an extra 2 points

jamesd

So if you get caught for speeding you may ask to see the speed you done on the camera/radar and hopefully then they may might not be able to show you the speed and let you off ?

Our man in Havana

Yes that is the case. But how many Gardai actually take the certs to court is another thing.

Sleipnir

it looks pretty clear to me.

if the person refuses or fails so to produce the licence

The point here is that you only have to be able to PRODUCE it when stopped and asked by a member of the Gardai.
It does not state that you have to produce it from a particular place (which would be just plain stupid)
So the Garda in question was wrong in saying that you have to be carrying it on your person.

the evil belly

Originally posted by Victor
Amendment of section 40 of Principal Act.

18.—Section 40 of the Principal Act (as inserted by the Act of 1994) is hereby amended by the insertion after subsection (1) of the following subsections:

"(1A) (a) A member of the Garda Síochána may demand of a person who is driving in a public place a mechanically propelled vehicle and is not the holder of a driving licence the production to him or her of a provisional licence then having effect and licensing the person to drive the vehicle, and if the person refuses or fails so to produce the licence and is a person falling within section 35(1) of this Act, he or she shall be guilty of an offence.

(b) References in paragraphs (b), (c), and (d) of subsection (1), and in the subsequent subsections of this section to a driving licence shall be construed, in relation to a person specified in subsection (1) who is a person falling within the said section 35(1), as references to a provisional licence.

(1B) Where a person who is driving in a public place a mechanically propelled vehicle and of whom the production of a driving licence is demanded under paragraph (a) of subsection (1) of this section or is required under paragraph (b) of that subsection produces, in accordance with the demand or request, a provisional licence then having effect and licensing the person to drive the vehicle concerned—

(a) the person shall not be guilty of an offence under the said paragraph (a) or, as the case may be, the said paragraph (b), and

(b) paragraph (d) of that subsection shall be construed, in relation to any production of the provisional licence in accordance with the said paragraph (b), as if the references in the said paragraph (d) to a driving licence were references to a provisional licence."
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZA12Y2002S18.html

The option to have 10 days grace is removed.

Originally posted by NETKING
I am a garda and well can offer what the garda position is. The law states that you must carry your D/L at all times but sure this is not always the case. If a person has not got it on them they have 10 days to produce it at a station they pick. If they don't the summones they get are failing to produce a d/l, failing to produce an insurance cert, no D/L no insurance and failing to carry on them a valid D/L thay are nasty ones to get but we never would do a person for not having it on them as long as they produce within the 10 days.

from what i see here we have the statute book telling us we no longer have a ten day period to hand in our licence and a garda telling us we do.

explanation, theories anything? anyone? some explain this to me

BrianD3

from what i see here we have the statute book telling us we no longer have a ten day period to hand in our licence and a garda telling us we do.

On one side, you have some anonymous guy posting on an internet forum who claims to be a Garda.

On the other side, you have a government website which gives details of Irish legislation.

Work it out

BrianD3

MadsL

And what is the penalty for failing to produce (or forgetting to bring!!) - another money-making scheme perhaps??

Imposter

Originally posted by MadsL
And what is the penalty for failing to produce (or forgetting to bring!!) - another money-making scheme perhaps??

Why is it a money making scheme. All drivers (should) know that that if they want to drive, they carry their licence. It seems quite simple to me.

sceptre

Originally posted by MadsL
another money-making scheme perhaps??

Ah I wouldn't say that (and as you well know I'd be one of the first on that complaining bandwagon if I thought it was so). We've all known since the start of the year that carrying licences was compulsory (all the news bulletins carried it and lots of people seemed to be talking about it (having said that a straightforward advertising campaign might have been good too))

I like the idea that the cops can check quickly that the person driving a vehicle is in fact licensed to drive that vehicle in the location it's in and a few other advantages to making licence carrying compulsory. With the Irish lax attitude towards any kind of rules there are plenty of people driving around in vehicles they aren't allowed to drive (and I'm not implying that it's even a significant minority but it is a large enough minority to cause problems)