IRMA trying to close down cd wow

IRMA are going to court today to get a date for a hearing to close down cd wow dot ie.

Their spokesperson was on morning Ireland on RTÉ radio one this morning claiming that cd wow's "illegal" activities was costing Irish record stores their business.

The cd wow spokesman pointed out that all they were doing was giving value to Iris consumers in that you can buy a cd for €13.95 from them or go to a record store here and get the same thing for €20.

What are peoples views on this here??


The interview can be heard on the RTÉ site.

mm

Kali

Have you a link for that interview? can't find it on rte.ie at all..
Bloody ridiculous proceedings though, what happens after cdwow? the hundreds of other internet cd/dvd shopping sites going to be next? I can't see how its going to stand up in court at all without setting such a precedent

yellum

Levis tried this before with a retailer in the UK (was it tesco ? ) who were importing cheaper Levis from the states or asia. I believe Levis lost.

Seems like a good campaign for RipOffIreland.org to run with.

ixoy

Oh how wonderful. We're told - in a bloody condescending advertising campaign - to be aware of prices and how it's "up to us". How is it up to us if the ba5tards are preventing us from being price aware and getting the cheap option?

Attention should be drawn to IRMA's policies of limiting our choices and, if anything happens to cdwow, I urge action to be taken to boycott them and their tactics.

Kali

Originally posted by ixoy
Attention should be drawn to IRMA's policies of limiting our choices and, if anything happens to cdwow, I urge action to be taken to boycott them and their tactics.

IRMA aren't exactly the most "boycottable" of organizations.. what do you plan to do? not go into any shop that plays music and has paid IRMA rights to do so? not listen to the radio? not watch any irish tv programmes that include music?

I doubt its IRMA alone who have made this decision.. more likely they have been pressured into it by large retailers (*cough* HMV).

Sleipnir

Tell the IRMA what you think about this here

echomadman

Their spokesperson was on morning Ireland on RTÉ radio one this morning claiming that cd wow's "illegal" activities was costing Irish record stores their business.

So are they going to sue apple next May when i-tunes europe is launched?

whosurpaddy

no they wont.
From my understanding of this, the root of IRMA's case has to do with the fact that cdwow are based in hong kong, and its unlawful to ship copyrighted material into the EU without the permission of the copyright owner.

complete cnuts they are

ixoy

Originally posted by whosurpaddy
no they wont.
From my understanding of this, the root of IRMA's case has to do with the fact that cdwow are based in hong kong, and its unlawful to ship copyrighted material into the EU without the permission of the copyright owner.

complete cnuts they are

What's the legal precedent for this? I mean if say Westsh1te have an album in Hong Kong surely they're getting royalties anyway? What difference does it make to them where their albums go, as long as they get their money per album? Why is it unlawful from a copyright perspective?

seamus

Originally posted by ixoy
What's the legal precedent for this? I mean if say Westsh1te have an album in Hong Kong surely they're getting royalties anyway? What difference does it make to them where their albums go, as long as they get their money per album? Why is it unlawful from a copyright perspective?

Because they can tailor the price to the market. Artists can choose how much they wish to charge for a copy of their works in any country. Since they charge retailers in Hong Kong less than Ireland, then cdwow are bypassing their money making schemes.
If they are successful, basically what they are saying is, "because you live in Ireland, you must pay the higher price for our recordings, that we have set".

It's greediness, pure and simple.

FWIW, I think IRMA will lose. Cd-wow aren't shipping goods into Europe for sale, they're selling them in Hong Kong, before posting them to Ireland. That's if the server that the transaction takes place on is in Hong Kong. Which I suspect it is.

Similar to me actually flying to Hong Kong, buying the CD and mailing it back to myself (but without the cost of a flight to Hong Kong).
About all that could happen is that cdwow will be asked to place customs & excise (ie VAT) on all products sent into Ireland. Which, as someone said, is no problem, it'll still work out miles cheaper for us.

whosurpaddy

cant remember for the moment where i read that, but i read it this morning somewhere, one of the news sites i think. if i can find the article again ill put it up

Kali

realplayer interview from this morning...

http://www.rte.ie/news/2003/1127/morningireland/morningireland7a.smil

Doctor J

IRMA can stick it up their ass. I saw a Ween cd, manufactured in the USA, on sale in HMV for €44.99 last night.

CD Universe - €14.99
HMV.co.uk - £17.99
Tower.co.uk - £9.41

Are IRMA seriously suggesting it is in the interests of the Irish consumer to be ripped off by almost €30???

Do your own research and send it to IRMA. Find CD's cheaper elsewhere and demand they fight on our side, not the corporation's!

Shred

Man this is really after pissing me off, the f*cking c*nts:mad:

This country just gets better and better

Beruthiel

god damn them to hell!
I just discovered cdwow a few months back and now they want to take it away from me!!
I'm off to give IRMA a roasting

seamus

/me senses that there will be a large protest outside IRMA headquarters quite soon.

The Irish are surprisingly militant when it comes to f*cking with their music. Even if IRMA win, I'd say it'll do far more damage than they'd like.

yellum

Originally posted by ixoy
What's the legal precedent for this? I mean if say Westsh1te have an album in Hong Kong surely they're getting royalties anyway? What difference does it make to them where their albums go, as long as they get their money per album? Why is it unlawful from a copyright perspective?

Its probably to do with self-preservation too, I think I remember U2 having war with IRMA or one of their ilk about live performances. U2 had to pay IRMA to perform their own songs in Ireland where 4 months later they'd get their money back minus an administration fee.

Doctor J

Make sure you use the link above to let them know what you think.

They're supposed to be there to support Irish musicians and Irish music.

As an Irish musician I think the more Irish cd's that are sold, from wherever, is a good thing. Are they purposely driving people towards Kazaa, etc?

whosurpaddy

Originally posted by Kananga
Tell the IRMA what you think about this here

i really think everyone should use this link and voice your opinion to them. a couple of thousand emails will at least let them see the weight of public opinion

Ste.phen

Yeah, I'm in agreement with Doctor J on this one,

to cite an example; I was looking to buy Eve 6s new album. It hasnt been released here as far as i know so its probably an "import" in HMV, tower, etc, costing anywhere from €22-€40?

I bought the album from Cdwow for HK$94.99 (about €10.50 i think), if the CDwow option wasnt available to me, i'd probably have downloaded it all from some P2P service.

Stephen

oh no, my fingers seem to have slipped and accidentally typed out a "fúck you in your stupid fúcking asses" type message to IRMA. Woe is me.

whosurpaddy

Originally posted by Beruthiel
I'm off to give IRMA a roasting

i hope u mean in a non newcastle united kinda way :eek:

ixoy

With regards to the site, surely it's best to use the e-mail address copyright@irma.ie rather than anything else? After all it's a copyright issue that they're suing over. I reckon rather than insulting them people point out a reasoned argument.

Their response is - I assume - along the lines of having to protect the interest of the artists they represent. The way to combat this is, I reckon, to point out that if you give a customer a cheap solution, and then take it away, you severely irritate said consumer. Said consumer is NOT going to go back to the HMV rip-off pr1cks but instead likely to try and give a big "fcuk you" to IRMA and instead turn to cheaper alternatives - such as P2P software.
So with cdwow they might get a smaller royalty for their artists but without cdwow they're likely to get none at all. That sort of logical thinking - appealing to their bulging purses of the rich fat cat scum who run the operation - should surely get them to notice more.

Doctor J

I wonder if CDwow could just open a teeeny tiny office here, register it, and still ship in from Hong Kong? Then they'd be based within the EU and IRMA can go F**K themselves.

ixoy

Originally posted by Doctor J
I wonder if CDwow could just open a teeeny tiny office here, register it, and still ship in from Hong Kong? Then they'd be based within the EU and IRMA can go F**K themselves.

Still wouldn't work I believe. The problem is the CDs come from Hong Kong and there's a copyright issue as a result. The pricier EU countries give an artist - and IRMA - a bigger take per CD than Hong Kong. So if we funnelled it through an Irish branch they'd still have the same copyright problem. They could only - maybe - get away with it by charging an additional payment then to satisfy IRMA and also including VAT.
It'd probably still be cheaper than the cnuts at HMV though.

BaZmO*

This issue really annoys me. And I mean REALLY!!!
Since I discovered CD WOW a couple of years ago I only buy new CDs from them or Play.com rather than HMV, who are rightfully getting slated for their high prices but I think Virgin have to answer to the same charge too.

The only time I actually buy CDs in shops in Ireland are when they're on sale and I have to say that HMV aren't "that" bad for bumping up your back catalogue, not great mind you, but not as bad as Virgin!! I was in both shops today at lunch time and it's the same old sh1te "2 OLD CDs for €35" like c'mon, that's not a sale!!
And as for the DVD offer "Buy one Get one Free" Yeah right!!! Let me rephrase that..

"We'll increase the cost of the DVD to a ridiculous price to make sure that we're covered for giving the second DVD away for Free!! And sure you're only a dumb customer who won't even notice this.....SALE" :rolleyes:

Somehow I don't think I could see the advertising department running with this!!

Another thing that bothers me is, and somebody might be able to help me out with this one. Is IRMA there to protect the commercial interests of Irish Artists?? Well if so, do a search on CD WOW and see how many Irish Artists you'll find!! Apart from the usual big boys like U2, Westlife, The Coors and Van Morrison you won't find too many others! You certainly won't find many if any up and coming Irish artists!! So it seems to me they're only protecting established artists and Louis Walsh!!.

The thing is though, even if you wanted to get an a CD from an established Irish artist you'd find it cheaper from play.com which is an English company so that blows the Irish record stores argument of "It's the tax that puts Irish prices up" out of the water.
At the end of the day, if IRMA want to protect Irish Artists they would make sure that Irish music was easier to purchase at reasonable prices and they'd be trying to stop Fat Cats like HMV, Virgin and major record companies from giving us the proverbial shafting!!!

VOTE WITH YOUR FEET PEOPLE!!

B.

Mossy Monk

is it only the CDWOW.ie they are after or all of CDWOW. the HK version of the site is cheaper than the .ie version but still the same company

whosurpaddy

Originally posted by Mossy Monk
is it only the CDWOW.ie they are after or all of CDWOW. the HK version of the site is cheaper than the .ie version but still the same company

surely if they shut down the .ie version of the site then its curtains for any cdwow shipping into ireland

BaZmO*

Actually, just out of interest. Can anybody get onto the CD WOW HK site??? I used to be able to, but now it just keeps re-directing me!! Hmmmm.....strange!!

B.

sunbeam

Yes, I was redirected to http://www7.cd-wow.com.hk/ which seems to be working fine.

BaZmO*

Originally posted by sunbeam
Yes, I was redirected to http://www7.cd-wow.com.hk/ which seems to be working fine.

Spank you very much!! That seems to have done the job!! I was getting re-directed to the American site!

Cheers.

B.

shabbyroad

Here's the mail I just sent IRMA :


I read with great disappointment today about the action to be taken by IRMA against cdwow.ie

No doubt I'll receive a carefully worded statement explaining how this is all in the interest of preserving the Irish music industry.

I respectfully suggest that IRMA would serve the industry better by dealing with the cartel and closed-shop that prevents independent Irish artists from selling their CDs in retail outlets. Your organization would also better serve the industry by dealing with the disgraceful treatment of independent Irish artists by our indigenous distribution companies.

Somehow I don't think that's going to happen though - today's news only confirms what I have always suspected about IRMA.

The only people that will benefit from this will be UK-owned multiples - that's your friends in HMV and Virgin.

I'm a commercial recording studio owner and I run an independent record label.
I'm an artist too - I don't see where IRMA is supporting me in this action.

I await with interest your next step in supporting the Irish music industry - mandatory miming and dancing lessons ?

Sincerely Yours,


take a look at their membership list (they have 39 members).
If you want to you could email these members and indicate how you won't be supporting their business.
I note that they state on their site (although contradicted elsewhere !) :
Membership Criteria:Only Irish record companies can become members of IRMA.

and at least one (Record Services) of the members listed is not a record label - they're a distributor.
Nice cosy cartel they've got going there.....

honru

Originally posted by Doctor J
IRMA can stick it up their ass. I saw a Ween cd, manufactured in the USA, on sale in HMV for €44.99 last night.

Yeah, I saw that same CD and I just walked out of the store.

This is really ridiculous: it just screams greediness, and I bet HMV persuaded the IRMA to do this. Does this mean the end for anything I order from non-EU countries? For Gods sake.

On a side note, seeing as this has come to the attention of the IRMA, I'm really glad that CDwow (and Play) have become this successful and that Irish people feel the same way about the high street prices. I had lost all faith in buying music until these two websites came to my attention; I would have mostly stuck to online downloading.

BigEejit

Something that struck me (bong!!! ) about this is that cd-wow sell a variety of items, and IRMA dont represent those copyright holders .... so would cd-wow have a case against IRMA if they were closed down?? (unfairly stopping their legitimate sales of games and DVD's)

secret_squirrel

There are similar copyright issues against DVD's unfortunately

secret_squirrel

Im sending this email to all my mates. what do ya think?

Subject : Music Industry trying to shut Down CD-WOW (no more cheap cd's)

Hi,

Just thought Id mail you and see if you knew about what the Irish Recorded Music Association (IRMA) is trying to do to one of the best websites for buying cheap cd's, dvd's and games - WWW.CDWOW.IE . IRMA are suing cd-wow in Ireland in a bid to stop them shipping cheap cd's in from abroad, thus forcing us consumers to pay the extortionate prices of their friends in the music retail business. This is just the tip of the iceberg - it could happen all over Europe.

Well I don’t know about you but I think this stinks, if they are allowed to get away with this we will either be forced to pay rip-off prices or use software like kazaa to download music illegally. I am sending the below mail to the IRMA (info@irma.ie) or pasting it at http://www.irma.ie/contact.asp and also to my local TD and to my MEP - Can I suggest you do the same?



TO IRMA
info@irma.ie
or
paste it at :
http://www.irma.ie/contact.asp

Dear Sir/Madam

RE : IRMA actions against cd-wow.

I would just like to share my anger and outrage over the actions the Irish Recorded Music Association (IRMA) are taking against the website www.CDWOW.ie If the IRMA are allowed to get away with this it will usher the yet another example of the consumer being ripped off.

The IRMA have seem to have forgotten that it is because of us consumers that your members make all their profits - if IRMA's members stop attempting to rip us off we wouldn't feel the need to use a website that is massively cheaper than the retail stores (and their websites).

I suggest you put your resources to better use and actually try to get your members to lower their extortionate prices - after all that would be better in the long run for Consumers, Artists and the Record Industry.

Please halt this abuse of your industry position.

If you succeed in your action against CD-WOW I shall do my best to make sure I never buy music in Ireland again.

Yours Sincerely


Secret squirrel.


To your local TD/MEP/MP

Dear Sir/Madam

RE : IRMA actions against cd-wow.

I would just like to share with you my anger and outrage over the actions the Irish Recorded Music Association (IRMA) are taking against the website www.CDWOW.ie If the IRMA are allowed to get away with this it will usher the yet another example of the voting public being ripped off.

IRMA are suing the website www.CDWOW.ie to prevent them from selling cheap cd's to the Irish market. This is just another case of the Irish consumer being ripped off.

I would ask that you contact them and ask halt this abuse of their industry position, before it results in the Irish music buying public boycotting the music industry completely in this country. It is a case of the music industry trying to maintain an outdated monopoly at the expense of the Irish consumer. Please join your voters and help us express our anger at IRMA.

Yours sincerely


secret squirrel.

TacT

*long sigh*

This country is run by the bloody mafia as far as I'm concerned, **** em in the goat ass.

Only thing I see happening on a daily basis anymore is the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer, mainly because FAT CAT CORPORATES keep ****ing us for every penny we're worth and as soon as we find an alternative to save a few penny's from FAT CATS, they catch on, slap us on the wrist and do everything within their power to revert or convert us back to the old ways.

Guess what? It's not gonna happen and I'm nearly considering getting a billboard and going out to stand in front of HMV/Virgin shouting "VISIT WWW.PLAY.COM or CDWOW.IE and compare the prices for yourselves, don't support english companies ripping us off to fill their own greedy pockets and a few greedy Irish ones that are comparable to thiefs.

We are all being ripped off left, right and centre and it's just gone beyond sickening at this stage, in fairness, wtf can we do against these pricks?

IRMA - you got mail and NO, it is not about love.

eth0_

My god. How many CDWOW threads must we have?!?? Why aren't the mods merging and closing the excess ones?
Think of the signal to noise ratio.

viking

Why, in the interview on Morning Ireland, was IRMA's Head of Anti-Piracy Operations, Sean Murtagh representing IRMA's views?

Surely this isn't a piracy issue since CDwow sell genuine legitimate cds?

viking

MarkR

And my little contibution...

Hello,

I think it's terrible that you are bringing a lawsuit against cdwow for selling cd's originating in Hong Kong, even though the recording artists have received their fair share of the profits, as these are legitamate cd's.

If the cost of cd's and dvd's wasn't so grossly inflated in this country then you might start making some decent album sales in bricks and mortar stores. I've just bought two DVD's from a similar company (play.com), The Lord of The Rings extended versions (Fellowship of the ring and Two towers) Cost me 60 euro incl shipping, as opposed to near 50 euro for one of them here. I'm sure the artists / copyright holders aren't the ones getting the extra money, so i've no sympathy for you saying that cdwow are egaging in profiteering. If you do succed in shutting down cdwow i'll go to their replacement, and then their replacement.


Mark

Darn spankers of monkeys....

Sleipnir

I just can't understand why the IRMA in particular are against this.
They represent Irish artists right?

The artist get's the same amount of money from the retailer (HMV, play, CD-Wow) regardless of how much the end-user pays.
So why are they up in arms about it?

If I go into HMV and but one U2 album for 25 euro, U2 get 3 euro for that.
If I go onto CD-wow I can buy two U2 albums for the same cost.
But, U2 get twice the money.

So why are they so pissed off?

Of course, it the HMV's of the country that are pissed off really.

viking

From ENN on the 15th Sept 2003:

The paper also says that the Irish Recorded Music Association (Irma) has blamed a decline in recorded music sales on piracy. The association, which represents the Irish music industry, says sales in the first half of 2003 are down from the same period last year, although official figures will not be published for another three weeks. "It's almost entirely attributable to piracy, between people downloading off the Internet and people burning CDs," said Sean Murtagh, Irma's head of anti-piracy.

So in two months Sean Murtagh has decided that it is no longer piracy that is mostly causing a decline in record sales but in fact CDWOW's "importing" of genuine legitimate CD's which is causing the decline in sales.

I have a feeling that IRMA and the members it represents got a bit peeved at the European Consumer Centre's survey which showed big savings to be had when shopping online. The survey was published in all the major newspapers and highlighted the fact ten random CD's could be purchased on CDWOW for €128.50 whereas these CD's would cost €213.90 at Virgin and €187.90 at HMV.

Good man Sean! By the way, you came across rather arrogant and patronising on the radio, that won't do your cause any good. I for one wont let this issue lie.

Finally, anyone sending emails to IRMA should also CC them to the editors at Irish-Times and Independent - no harm in letting them know the volume of emails being sent to IRMA about this

viking

ixoy

What are the legal issues with handing out fliers showing cdwow prices over HMV right outside HMV's door? Do they own that piece of pavement? If it's done quietly then it's hardly a crime. I would live to post a banner right there - be better than picketing IRMA HQs...

Richieh

Just listened to the interview. How arrogant is that p*i*k Sean Murtagh! Let's hope they leave court today with their tails between their legs!

whosurpaddy

where can i listen to that interview? presuming its on the interweb

Doctor J

Originally posted by ixoy
What are the legal issues with handing out fliers showing cdwow prices over HMV right outside HMV's door? Do they own that piece of pavement? If it's done quietly then it's hardly a crime. I would live to post a banner right there - be better than picketing IRMA HQs...

Now there's an idea

Of course a small sticker on each cd saying "You could get this at www.cdwow.ie for €xxx" might also work



not that I'd propose anyone do that though

whosurpaddy

just heard the interview. he may as well have just come on an said. "hello im a cnut, im being bent over by hmv at this very moment and im determined to do everything i can to make sure the irish consumer continues to pay higher prices "


he had a great arguement when presented with the cdwow guy making a lucid sensible arguement: "its absolute rubbish" "its a red herring" "we have anicdotal evidence".


just out of interest. what sean hughes said was that high street business is down. so what. this does not affect the musicians? i thought that irma were there to protect the musicians not the retailers?

Richieh

Originally posted by whosurpaddy
where can i listen to that interview?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2003/1127/morningireland/morningireland7a.smil

BaZmO*

Right!, I’m extremely pissed off now. I went to buy Ray D’Arcy and Today FM’s new CD that was released today, “Even Better Than The Real Thing” (Great CD btw, it’s worth buying if only for Rosey’s version of Blu Cantrell’s “Breathe”)

I work around the corner from the Square in Tallaght so on my lunch break I went around to HMV to buy it. I was surprised to see that it was priced at €16.99 which I think is a bit expensive for a covers CD but it’s for charity so it’s for a good cause. Before I bought it though, I thought that I’d go into Virgin just to see how much they were selling it for and was absolutely gobsmacked to see that they were selling it €19.99!!! The robbing bastards!!!

Now don’t get me wrong, I’m not a penny pincher or anything like that, after all the CD is for charity, but it really annoys me when you can see blatant profiteering like this and in the name of a good cause too. How can they justify charging €3 more than their nearest rival for the same product when both shops are in the same location, the CD is an Irish CD which means the same suppliers and it’s released on the same day!!

The really ironic thing about all of this is that the charity that the money is going to is The National Children's Hospital Tallaght which is within walking distance of Virgin!!! Nice to see that they're supporting local causes!! :rolleyes:

B.

Are these the people that you’re trying to protect IRMA????
:rolleyes:

seamus

Originally posted by whosurpaddy
what sean hughes said was that high street business is down. so what.

High street business is down because of the deterioration of the quality of music, the cost of music, and the attitude of the larger companies towards consumers. The internet is a red herring, being blamed for their shortcomings.

Sure, what was it said, only 30-odd% of Irish people had actually ever used the Internet, and only a further 50-odd% of them use it for any sort of online shopping? How many of them shop at cdwow is a mystery, but it could hardly be any noticeable impact on music sales.

:rolleyes:

whosurpaddy

Originally posted by seamus
High street business is down because of the deterioration of the quality of music, the cost of music, and the attitude of the larger companies towards consumers. The internet is a red herring, being blamed for their shortcomings.

Sure, what was it said, only 30-odd% of Irish people had actually ever used the Internet, and only a further 50-odd% of them use it for any sort of online shopping? How many of them shop at cdwow is a mystery, but it could hardly be any noticeable impact on music sales.

:rolleyes:

but my point is, it shouldnt be any corcern of irma's if high street sales are down as long as the same revenue is being generated overall for artists. so what differance does it make to an artist if this revenue is generated via high street or internet?