Cruelty to animals MUST STOP!!!

CyberGhost

and these "people" are called doctors!

http://www.anonymous.org.il/e-mazor.htm
(WARNING! not easy to watch!)

what a hell is this world coming to...

Anima

Thats fúcked up.

What i wouldn't give for 5 mins with them and a metal bar

Ronika

me feels like crying after reading that. Its like that poor greyhoung that was found in a closed dumpster here. he'd been in there for weeks and was half dead. There was also other greyhounds that were found dead in that dumpster. Its disgusing, these people just be jailed for these crimes not just fined!!!

sionnach

thats incredibly cruel..... and the same thing is happening in several other places... and theres probably nothing we can do to stop it

CyberGhost

thats incredibly cruel..... and the same thing is happening in several other places... and theres probably nothing we can do to stop it

and that happens not only to the animals


Ronika..
did you read it or see the video?

Ronika

It was in the Irish Times sometime last week. they had a photo of the dog and it was horrible

CyberGhost

man! i have heard that doctors(students) learn to do operations on dogs then throw them away into the dumpster, later they save people's lifes but isn't there a way to learn how to operate without using a dog?, it's really heartbreaking but what can we do?

vac

My bottle of hugo boss means more to me (and the ladies) than some random monkey ever will..

koneko

vac,
If you want to go spam, go do it elsewhere. BYEBYE

Ignore above post, carry on conversation.

azezil

Whilst I would never like to see an animal being unnecessarily harmed I can't say I'm against animal testing, if the tests will benifit humanity I think its an accecptable cost. I would however never agree to the testing of cosmetic products.

koneko

I agree that to an extent it may be needed when we're talking about curing diseases, important research, but has to be controlled to make sure there is no uncessesary cruelty.

I don't mind anyone expressing opinions from either side of this discussion btw, as long as people voice opinions and discuss instead of spamming (Vac).

DapperGent

Quotes from the linked page:

Although the Mazor Farm owners repeatedly claim that experimentation on monkeys may someday lead to the development of cures to human illnesses such as AIDS, Alzheimer's and Parkinson's Disease, the truth is that nonhuman primates are unable to serve as models for these human-specific diseases. Therefore, conclusions from these experiments are not applicable to humans.

Brain research experiments are an archaic, cruel science. Today there are reliable, accurate techniques for mapping areas in the brain by non-intrusive, painless methods, which can be applied to human volunteers without jeopardizing their safety.

Are essentially bullshit. I'm all for eliminating bad practice in relation to animal breeding and experimentaion, but to claim that neural experimentation on primates is worthless science is quite simply a lie. While the farm may be a bad and cruel facility worthy of being shutdown the page seems to want to claim that all primate experimentation is wrong. It isn't.

Hellrazer

How some of you say that some animal experiments are a necessary evil is beyond a joke.

Primate and lower species experiments almost always yield results which mean absolutely nothing to Humans.Scientists use these "results" as away of getting more money for their research yet the results have no bearing on treatments for human illnesses.
As for the cosmetic industry dont get me started---For example a major sunglasses manufacturer uses rabbits in their "experiments".The rabbits are subjected to something like 50 times the power of the suns rays before and after the lenses are applied to the animals eyes.In most cases the rabbits are already blind from the first exposure and yet the "scientists" claim that the glasses stop the (already) blind rabbit from going blind.
Vac if you`re that interested in your after shave/eau de toilette maybe you should apply some of the concentrated substance to your skin for months on end and see how much the ladies find you attractive then.
Your lucky I didnt ban you for that comment.EDIT****didnt know you banned him already koneko****.

My point.
We are a different species to these animals.
And no amount of experimentation on lower species will ever change my mind that these tests can benefit humans.

If you really care that much for stopping animal testing there is a list of companies who use animals to test their products here: http://marcussternum.tripod.com/campaigns.htm

Personally I try not to buy products tested on animals but since there is no obligation on manufacturers in Ireland to display whether or not they use animals in their research this is easier said than done.


Good topic BTW.
Richie.

DapperGent

Originally posted by Hellrazer
My point.
We are a different species to these animals.
And no amount of experimentation on lower species will ever change my mind that these tests can benefit humans.

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Your last sentence is completely untrue.

Every single drug or medicine you've ever taken has been tested on animals, recent breakthroughs in ameliorating the effects of stroke were only possible through animal experimentation.

Cancer drugs, beta blockers, painkillers, anti-depressants etc. Their creation was and their improvement is dependant on animal experimentation. Don't make sweeping statements on subjects you clearly have no grasp of.

Hellrazer

Dappergent read the quote you just posted.


"""And no amount of experimentation on lower species will ever change ****my**** mind that these tests can benefit humans."""


Note the MY in that sentence.

Its an opinion not a sweeping statement.
And I still believe (in my opinion) that animal experimentation does not benefit human kind.
I cant honestly believe that a totally different species will have the same reaction to a substance that a human will have.
Richie.

DapperGent

Originally posted by Hellrazer

I cant honestly believe that a totally different species will have the same reaction to a substance that a human will have.

It doesn't need to have the exact same reaction for valid scientific conclusions to be drawn. A substance found to be carcinogenic in rats will also cause cancers in humans, you don't need to have human specific cancers to conclude that the substance (or drug) is dangerous.

Originally posted by Hellrazer
And I still believe (in my opinion) that animal experimentation does not benefit human kind.

It amazes me that you can hold an opinion that so obviously false. Animal experimentation quite obviously has and will continue to be of benefit to humanity. Refusing to acknowledge something that glares you in the face a hundred times as you go about your daily business should be a source of embarrassment to you.

Hellrazer

Originally posted by DapperGent
It doesn't need to have the exact same reaction for valid scientific conclusions to be drawn. A substance found to be carcinogenic in rats will also cause cancers in humans, you don't need to have human specific cancers to conclude that the substance (or drug) is dangerous.

It amazes me that you can hold an opinion that so obviously false. Animal experimentation quite obviously has and will continue to be of benefit to humanity. Refusing to acknowledge something that glares you in the face a hundred times as you go about your daily business should be a source of embarrassment to you.

Ok Ill use an example.Thalidomide for example was tested on animals for years before it came into widespread use.Look what that did!!!Problem was the scientists DID test it on animals but not on pregnant animals.And Im sure I could drag up a few more examples of failures in this field if I looked.

And why should I be embarrassed about my beliefs???
I acknowledge that it does go on in everyday life from our toothpaste to our perfumes/deodorants etc,but why should harmless animals be the ones who suffer for our luxuries/medical advances???
Thats my point.Nothing less nothing more.
Im more embarrassed for the likes of yourself who doesnt realise what sad suffering lives these poor defenceless creatures go through and who openly support animal testing.
Richie

DapperGent

Originally posted by Hellrazer
Ok Ill use an example.Thalidomide for example was tested on animals for years before it came into widespread use.Look what that did!!!Problem was the scientists DID test it on animals but not on pregnant animals.And Im sure I could drag up a few more examples of failures in this field if I looked.

And how many thalidomide-esque events have avoided through strigent testing?

God bless your naiveté. I wonder what you'd say to people with clinical depression whose only relief from misery are drugs which could not have been developed without animal experimentation? I hope you or no-one close to you ever develops high blood pressure the treatments for which are also based upon animal experimentation. Sugical techniques such as transplants could never have been developed without the use of animals.

Humans are more important than animals. To be a member of human society and to disagree with this is an inherantly hypocritcal stance. It is important that animals do not suffer needless in experimentation nor should they be used in frivolous experiments (I'm with you on the cosmetics for the most part) but to be against them in their entirety is to approve of the future suffering and perhaps early death of a great number of people. On a long enough timeline certainly more people-deaths than the animal experiment-deaths you dislike now.

Capt'n Midnight

Time for the rat poison rant.

Rats are intelligent animals, that share many behavorial characteristics with humans.

Rat poison is designed to kill slowly through internal bleeding, due to the loss of blood over time it becomes thirsty and should leave the building and head for water. So when it dies it will be outside and there won't be any neast smell from the rotting corpse.

I've never heard of anyone complaining about inhumane treatment of poisoned rats - but it would probably be the biggest preventable cause of animal suffering....

CyberGhost

Rat poison is designed to kill slowly through internal bleeding, due to the loss of blood over time it becomes thirsty and should leave the building and head for water. So when it dies it will be outside and there won't be any neast smell from the rotting corpse.

Wow, i didn't know that!

btw i read that some lab guys attached transmitters and mind control devices to it's brain, and could control it with a laptop

trilo

i have to say..... ****I NG BASTA RDS

when i got to the part in the video clip when the girl says that the monkey wasnt fully under anesthetic and they were using anesthetic that had expired 6 years earlier i had to turn it of..

jesus the bas tards...

errrhhh
:mad:

lacuna

Originally posted by DapperGent
It doesn't need to have the exact same reaction for valid scientific conclusions to be drawn. A substance found to be carcinogenic in rats will also cause cancers in humans, you don't need to have human specific cancers to conclude that the substance (or drug) is dangerous.

i dont know an awful lot about this but in my somewhat limited knowledge of diseases with regard to other species i would have thought that this statement was utterly false. isn't AIDS a disease that monkeys get and effects them much in the same way a flu infects humans???

this would lead me to believe that disease effect different species in different ways and there is no defininte way that a scientist could predict, through experimentation on animals, the effects that things have on humans.

i dont like the idea of experimentation on animals...in many cases i feel it is wholely unnecessary. also im completely against the testing of cosmetics etc on animals.

DapperGent

Originally posted by lacuna
i dont know an awful lot about this but in my somewhat limited knowledge of diseases with regard to other species i would have thought that this statement was utterly false.

It seem that you don't and no the statement is not false, it's utterly not false.

SARS was a virus that also jumped from animals to humans, a vaccine has just been developed using rhesus monkeys that works for rhesus monkeys. Using this development a vaccine effective for humans is not far way, apparently only a matter of time. It will probably come in handy if another SARS outbreak occurs and then develops into a pandemic. A prospect scarily possible. The imminent development of a human applicable vaccine would have been impossible without the rhesus monkey experiments.

Originally posted by lacuna
isn't AIDS a disease that monkeys get and effects them much in the same way a flu infects humans???

There is a drug treatment called the AIDS triple cocktail which ameliorates the effect of the virus, particularily in delaying or even preventing the transition from HIV to fullblown AIDS. It has saved many lives and is probably the only hope Africa has of not turning into Golgotha.

It's development would have been impossible without animal testing.

clipper

i am a scientist, and i feel obliged to explain a little about the how difficult it is to use animals for research. to begin, the legislation protects all animals from mammals to birds,amphibia, fish, reptiles and even the octopus.

ALL procedures which 'may' cause distress to these animals MUST go through an extremely strict process before a license is granted for this work. an experimenter must prove that there is absolutely no alternative way to do the work (for example using a computer model, or cell cultures), that it has NEVER been done before(i.e.no-one has ever published similar data anywhere, ever), and that the smallest possible number of animals are used. in the uk at least, these applications are submitted to a board of highly qualified scientists, lawyers, politicians and members of the clergy.

every person that works with one of the above animals for scientific research undergoes intensive training in historical background legislation, ethics, current legislation, codes of practice, recognition of well-being and distress in animals, practical handling techniques, humane procedures, animal diseases, health monitoring and pharmacological treatment of animals(for example pain relief). a license for research is granted only by successful completion of both written and practical exams (not easy to pass!).
breach of contract of either type of license will result in at least never being able to get another license, and most likely in imprisonment.
in every part of life there are people who will flout the rules, but i believe that we are doing the best that we can in terms of legislating against possible crimes. the work science does for all humans is incredibly important, but i concede that we should always be looking for an alternative to animal experimentation.

by the way, mammalian species in particular are remarkably like us - from the cellular level right up to their emotional responses. so, they do respond in a remarkably similar way to many drugs for humans.
and, you can do neurosurgery even on a human while they are awake - once you put a local anaesthetic on the scalp you can drill in and poke away at someone's brain and they won't feel pain.

koneko

Let's keep this on topic, minus insults and digs at eachother.

Hellrazer

Thread split on request from Dappergent.
Richie.

Hellrazer

Originally posted by clipper
i am a scientist.

ALL procedures which 'may' cause distress to these animals MUST go through an extremely strict process before a license is granted for this work.

every person that works with one of the above animals for scientific research undergoes intensive training in historical background legislation, ethics, current legislation, codes of practice, recognition of well-being and distress in animals, practical handling techniques, humane procedures, animal diseases, health monitoring and pharmacological treatment of animals(for example pain relief). a license for research is granted only by successful completion of both written and practical exams (not easy to pass!).
breach of contract of either type of license will result in at least never being able to get another license, and most likely in imprisonment.
in every part of life there are people who will flout the rules, but i believe that we are doing the best that we can in terms of legislating against possible crimes. the work science does for all humans is incredibly important, but i concede that we should always be looking for an alternative to animal experimentation.

by the way, mammalian species in particular are remarkably like us - from the cellular level right up to their emotional responses.

Procedeures which "may" cause distress to an animal---Come on any of the animal welfare groups against this testing will say that these "experiments" DO cause distress to animals.

And if the people who you say sit exams are trained etc to recognise this distress in animals are so well trained why do they not stop the "experiment" when they recognise this distress and therefore treat the animals suffering.Because they dont have one bit of compassion in their bodies for the creatures they are torturing and because at the end of the day it all comes down to a "breakthrough" which requires more grants/funding to confirm the results of the previuos round of testing.

Mammalian species are NOT remarkably similar in their responses to humans--Again I have to argue that we are a different species and some drugs which work on rats etc are of no benefit to us.

The only part of your post I agree with is the point you make regarding the search for alternative methods to animal experimentation.Why not use rapists/murderers whose results from such experiments could actually be guaranteed as correct as they are the SAME species as us and any results would be 100% correct without doubt for the difference in species type.
Richie.

Thorbar

Originally posted by Hellrazer
Procedeures which "may" cause distress to an animal---Come on any of the animal welfare groups against this testing will say that these "experiments" DO cause distress to animals.

And if the people who you say sit exams are trained etc to recognise this distress in animals are so well trained why do they not stop the "experiment" when they recognise this distress and therefore treat the animals suffering.Because they dont have one bit of compassion in their bodies for the creatures they are torturing and because at the end of the day it all comes down to a "breakthrough" which requires more grants/funding to confirm the results of the previuos round of testing.

Mammalian species are NOT remarkably similar in their responses to humans--Again I have to argue that we are a different species and some drugs which work on rats etc are of no benefit to us.

The only part of your post I agree with is the point you make regarding the search for alternative methods to animal experimentation.Why not use rapists/murderers whose results from such experiments could actually be guaranteed as correct as they are the SAME species as us and any results would be 100% correct without doubt for the difference in species type.
Richie.

I honestly don't know what to say to your statement of lets use fellow humans to test new drugs instead of animals. Would you really rather see a person be tested and experimented on over an animal? How do you know that animal in the video didn't rape or kill another monkey? Or if rapist/murderer you wanted to experiment on wasn't wrongfully convicted. I can sorta understand someone wanting to stop these kinds of experiments because they don't think any benifits from the research outweigh the pain and suffering caused by them. But to say its ok to do them on humans because they'd done wrong in the past, jesus that's cruel.