Smoking botch

star gazer

He had the world in the palm of his hand, high public support, taking on the powerful publican lobby and an international first making Ireland a world leader. People were even talking about him as the next Taoiseach. But he didn't have the work done, didn't have the legal implications clarified and now the danger is the smoking ban will be challenged in the courts and be nullified. How could he get it so wrong when so many were on his side h=and he had known for months that this would come in?

Syth

What botch are you refering to? I've heard that there are/might be problems, but I don't actaully know what they are. What consititutional challenges?

ixoy

Is it a constitutional problem? I thought the problem was that he hasn't sent in the final plan to the EC and - for it to be implemented - the EC need it 3 months prior to the beginning. Since he wants it in on January 1, he's left it a little late for the 3 months. That and, IIRC, the definition of the workplace is still too vague from a legal POV (possibly).

Also I assume the poster means the way he's softening his stance on the ban - such as letting off prisons, hotel rooms, etc.

As long as pubs still get the ban then I'm happy.

Go Figure!

Originally posted by star gazer
He had the world in the palm of his hand, high public support, taking on the powerful publican lobby and an international first making Ireland a world leader. People were even talking about him as the next Taoiseach. But he didn't have the work done, didn't have the legal implications clarified and now the danger is the smoking ban will be challenged in the courts and be nullified. How could he get it so wrong when so many were on his side h=and he had known for months that this would come in?

He's a Fianna Fail politician! No further explanation necessary I'm afraid. Any other party would have done a better job implementing what was essentially a very good idea. The sooner we ditch this government the better!

Villain

He said the plan would protect ALL workers, but there are going to be excemptions for jails, rooms of b&b's and other places. There seems to be some issue about rights of people been denied.

I don't know the ins and outs thats all I've picked up so don't quote me on it.

Cork

Originally posted by Go Figure!
He's a Fianna Fail politician! No further explanation necessary I'm afraid. Any other party would have done a better job implementing what was essentially a very good idea.

Why did Michael Noonan or Brendan Howlin think of it?

I think that it is right - smoking to be allowed in OAP Homes and Hospices. Could you imagine telling a 90 year old women - If she wanted to smoke - that she'd have to leave the building?

Even Hotels - Were staff surposed to check every 15 minutes that nobody was smoking? This type of ivasion of privacy did not happen in the darkest days of Communist Russia.

If a law is not enforcable - you may as well have no law. The Minister is tieghtening up some very worthwhile legalislation.

The "I told you so" brigade are out in force - but this ban is coming & I think that a few extra weeks - won't metter very much.

Villain

Cork,

He said this ban would protect all staff, now he's changing his mind and saying some staffs health doesn't matter if you work in jail or hospice etc.

Martin has ****ed up and is going to egg on his face.

Either total or no ban.

I'd say if this is going to be challenged through the courts it could take some time before it comes in.

Surely you would think he would have got legal advice before now????

Cork

Either total or no ban.

Everything is not black and white.

Would you tell an OAP in a nursing home to go out in the cold for a smoke?

Would you tell somebody in an hospice that they cannot have a smoke?

Even hotels - were staff to knock on doors every 30 minutes to check?

If I rented a hotel room - I'd expect a bit of privacy.

Unenforcable Laws are a farce.

The Minister is making sure that this law will be enforcable.

These exemptions make sense and this law is going to be enforced. A few extra weeks won't really metter much - this law is on the way.

Villain

Would you tell a 90 years old woman sitting in her local to go out and smoke??

ronano

Originally posted by Go Figure!
He's a Fianna Fail politician! No further explanation necessary I'm afraid. Any other party would have done a better job implementing what was essentially a very good idea. The sooner we ditch this government the better!

Who shall govern us ? fine gael ? labour ? i fear that i want to vote for no one

Villain

Originally posted by ronano
Who shall govern us ? fine gael ? labour ? i fear that i want to vote for no one

A lot of people feel that way. Theres always Independents. and have a look at other parties there more than the 2 you mentioned.

Cork

Would you tell a 90 years old woman sitting in her local to go out and smoke??

Yes - I would.

The diffence between a pub and a nursing home is - a nursing home is akin to ones home.

I think that treating it as such is pretty fair to residents.

This ban is going to be workable and enforcable.

Publicians will not be allowed but to enforce it.

star gazer

originally posted by Syth
What botch are you refering to? I've heard that there are/might be problems, but I don't actaully know what they are. What consititutional challenges?

Pretty much answered by ioxy . There seems to be a slow drip of undermining exemptions coming from the Minister, the hospitality alliance is able to say it is a farce. The fact that a hotel worker is going to be deemed less important in health regulations terms than other workers. Granted the law is going to be hard to be enforceable however if you had a smoke alarm in every room you wouldn't take long to change people's habits when they get fined for emptying hotels for a false alarm.

originally posted by Cork
Why did Michael Noonan or Brendan Howlin think of it?

Isn't it amazing that Brian Cowen isn't in that list?

sceptre

Originally posted by Cork
This type of ivasion of privacy did not happen in the darkest days of Communist Russia.

I invoke Godwin's law by proxy.

Villain

so let me get this right Cork, If I work in a Bar I'm entilted to work in a smoke free enviroment BUT if I work in a nursing home or jail I'm not????

People who had commited a crime and are serving time are allowed to smoke where ever they like once in Jail, but a OAP can't go into his local and smoke???

Cork

Originally posted by star gazer
The fact that a hotel worker is going to be deemed less important in health regulations terms than other workers.

Bar Staff & Restaurent staff will not have to put up with fag smoke.

Room Attendants probably won't either as the smoker will probably have departed.

I invoke Godwin's law by proxy.

No. You cannot expect to police smoking bans in people's bedrooms!

Is anything sacred?

Cork

Originally posted by irish1
so let me get this right Cork, If I work in a Bar I'm entilted to work in a smoke free enviroment BUT if I work in a nursing home or jail I'm not????

People who had commited a crime and are serving time are allowed to smoke where ever they like once in Jail, but a OAP can't go into his local and smoke???

Prisons and nursing homes are people's homes.

Pubs & Restaurents are places of business.

Villain

Originally posted by Cork
Prisons and nursing homes are people's homes.

Pubs & Restaurents are places of business.

THAT EMPLOY PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!

They are still workers, god damn it theres more people working in prsions than there is locked up.

Have these workers not got rights too??????

Cork

Originally posted by irish1
THAT EMPLOY PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!

I agree. But in fairness - nursimg homes should be exempted as they should be as close as possible as "homes" to the OAPs.

I would prefer a total ban - but a law that cannot be enforced is a joke.

It is much better - to be fair to those in nursing homes and prisons.

Hotel,B+B, & hostels should be like rooms we rent for the night. We really should have the same rights in these rooms as we would in our own bed rooms.

I again - would prefer a complete ban.

sceptre

Originally posted by Cork
No. You cannot expect to police smoking bans in people's bedrooms!

Is anything sacred?

I've no idea how that refers to my brief post above.

In case you're unaware, my comment was related to the idiotic "this never even happened in comunist Russia" (in place of the more usual "Nazi Germany"), a clear case of taking some extreme case and trying to wrangle it into the argument in an attempt to bolster your position that truthfully just makes your thesis look silly. Godwin's law (named for Mike Godwin) refers to the eventuality and idiocy of bringing up Nazis in threads - it takes very little effort to include "communist Russia" in that definition.

I've visited communist Russia (or the USSR as it was then). I know people from Bulgaria who grew up in fear and terror. You don't know jack about it apart from what you've seen in Bond movie reruns and old RTE shows so stop exaggerating.

Villain

Originally posted by Cork
I agree.

Good,

I also agree that a total ban isn't workable.

I also believe the ban with even these excemptions will be very hard to enforce.

If the Guardai were to enforce it with heavy fines then maybe it might work.

This is not going to be easy, not at all. It will create a hell of a lot of problems and if not enforced, which I can't see it been its going to be done by the health and safety people.

Buses are meant to be smoke free but are they???

SkepticOne

Originally posted by irish1
Buses are meant to be smoke free but are they???

Maybe you were never on one before the ban?

Qadhafi

Guardai

who the fcuk are they:)


here i think the what is going through now is the best option. If some mento starts loosing the plot who is going to tell them that they cant have a fag. Same with the fellas in the slammer. There would be too many problems.

There is going to be a lot of tourists pretty pissed off so a compromise of letting people smoke in their own rooms in fine.

No other country in the EU has tried to put in a ban like this before, not even Sweden or Finland who seem to have everything sorted. So you have to give some credit to the government.

If it comes in around or before March it will be great.

However the minister shouldnt be just talking about the smoking ban. There is 130 people waiting on beds in hospitals around Ireland!!!

star gazer

originally posted by qadhafi
who the fcuk are they

the new smoking police maybe?

Why was it so hard for the minister not to know all the exemptions that would be neceassary five months ago, why has he not coordinated with health and safety officers and their department, enterprise and employment? this is going to turn from a national achievement to an international embarrassment.

Villain

Originally posted by SkepticOne
Maybe you were never on one before the ban?

I was and nothing has changed!!

Do you think otherwise?

ixoy

My bus route is generally smoke free - even upstairs ('cept for the Nitelink at times). Are my bus people just polite folk or something?

sovtek

Face it. If it wasn't (perceived to be) threatening the pockets of millionaire members of the Vintners Association, none of this big stink would be made.
It's happening and seems obvious to me to be enforcable with some exceptions, which have been made.
This is the one thing since I've been living here that looks like it was done right.
If the Vintners Association beleives that there are other safety issues in the workplace as well as health hazards in the environment, they are quite welcome to use their strong political power and their millions to do something about it.

star gazer

The smoking ban will happen in public houses IMHO. It's not just the publicans that are resisting, it is hard to believe that the huge tobacco industry would not be heavily involved by proxy to defeat this, Europes first attempt at a total ban of smoking in the workplace. The majority voice will win out in the smoking ban struggles. It's a pity Micheal marin couldn't bring it in a little more smoothly.

Cork

If publicans don't want to risk changing their public houses into....well houses - they'll enforce the ban.

Publicans will have to operate within the law. I work with the public & there is massive public support for this ban.

There was an expert on the radio this morning who described this ban with exemptions as "comprehensive".

The end is nigh for unwanted fag smoke. It is high time IMO.

Villain

What about this loop hole which classes dwellings as excempt but 70% of Pub Licences cover the whole premisies including dwellings??

It was discussed on Questions and answers last night??

Cork

I did not see Questions & Answers. But pubs need to abide by the law of the land.

Every pub has to renew it's liecence. The Licence is up for renewal every year.

If they cannot enforce the law on their premises - do they deserve a licence to sell licqor?

Villain

Cork, I agree with the ban, my problems lie with the implementation.

There are problems I have already mentioned but watching Q&A last night I heard another one.

The Barrister that was on the panel said he could see there been legal challenges, which will mean this ban will be delayed.

So Martin has fecked up again.

ArphaRima

This new law is a joke and i do not support it. But it will happen. Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves. They have passed the point of no return. Senior politicians have staked their careers on it happening. So it will. With or without the best legislation in place.

Villain

Originally posted by fluffer
This new law is a joke and i do not support it. But it will happen.

Yea but due to bad managment it will more than likely be delayed now, could be held up for years like the angel dust thing.

Thats the example the Barristor gave on Q&A last night.

Government fools, couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery

Cork

Here, I disagree. Exemptions will make this law fair. Not exempting say bedrooms was inevitable. Policing a ban in bedrooms is unworkable.
But - what has been done was to look at the practicality of enforcing it. They have considerate to those in OAP homes.

What they have came up with is a that smoking will effectively be banned in most workplaces.

This has been welcomed by Mandate and the General Public.

I really could not care less about the Vintners Association.

Smoking is not allowed when you go the pictures.

So, I hope the bill is challanged.

It is about time bar/restaurent workers will now be able to work in a smoke free environment.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by irish1
I was and nothing has changed!!

Do you think otherwise?

Yes. The upstairs of busses used to be a haze of smoke, particularly noticeable on cold mornings when the windows would be shut. Half the passengers would be smoking at any one time.

Smoking still goes on, but it is largely confined to night busses. Very rarely would you come across someone smoking during the day. You are certainly aware of it when they do.

Imposter

wrt pub licences covering the entire building of public houses and the connected dwelling, I think it's quite simple. Allow an exemption for the part of the dwelling that is not open to the public or staff. If the public is allowed in there it's no smoking. If it's off limits ot public and staff it's the same as any private dwelling. Most pub licences cover at least part of the outside of the buildings also and perhaps part of the neighbouring street not owned by the publican but you won't see smoking being banned there.

This is just another attempt by publicans to be awkward.

Villain

Imposter your 100% correct such clarification would help.

But it doesn't look like this will work.

I'm surprised at Cork saying he hopes this is challenged considering Legal advice seems to think this will delay the issue, maybe by a year or 2!!!!!

gazzer

Yes. The upstairs of busses used to be a haze of smoke, particularly noticeable on cold mornings when the windows would be shut. Half the passengers would be smoking at any one time.

Smoking still goes on, but it is largely confined to night busses. Very rarely would you come across someone smoking during the day. You are certainly aware of it when they do.





I dont know what buses you use but every single time i get a bus from where i live (Dublin 15) into town and back there are at least two/three people smoking... more in the morning when the kids are going to school... there is a unreal smell of hash... Not a word of a lie... i have yet to get a bus where there is no body smoking on it.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by gazzer
I dont know what buses you use but every single time i get a bus from where i live (Dublin 15) into town and back there are at least two/three people smoking... more in the morning when the kids are going to school... there is a unreal smell of hash... Not a word of a lie... i have yet to get a bus where there is no body smoking on it.

I'm kind of surprised by this, but I don't doubt you. It may be an issue on some routes more than others. I have certainly been on busses where people were breaking the rules, but in my experience it was fairly uncommon, maybe once every couple of weeks.