ADD COMMUNITY - Irish Skeptics

davros

Board Name: Irish Skeptics
Description: Online forum of The Irish Skeptics Society
Private Y/N: N

The Irish Skeptics Society was started a year ago to challenge the many extraordinary claims of psychics, astrologers, practitioners of alternative medicine, etc.

The Society organises public lectures every two months, publishes a newsletter and has represented the rational viewpoint on programmes such as The Marian Finucane Show. The Society was recently profiled in the science pages of The Irish Times.

Please see the website for more details on Society goals and activities.

A Boards forum would be a wonderful outlet for discussion on topics of enormous interest to many people.

Thanks!

ecksor

This sounds interesting. Mind you, I didn't think you came across terribly well on the Marian Finucane show at the time.

These sorts of threads crop up quite frequently on the Science boards though.

DeVore

No problem with it being a community board though... if you can show sufficent support for it.

Of course I dont believe you will. [1]

DeV.

[1]Geddddit!?

davros

Originally posted by ecksor
This sounds interesting. Mind you, I didn't think you came across terribly well on the Marian Finucane show at the time.

See, if there had been an Irish Skeptics board, you would have had somewhere to make that observation (Incidentally, Society reps have been on that particular show 3 or 4 times so far.)

These sorts of threads crop up quite frequently on the Science boards though.

Part of the point would be to comment on the society itself - suggestions for speakers, whether there should be an annual "bent spoon" award, that sort of thing.

So how does this thread get moved to Feedback so I can canvass for members' votes?

Originally posted by DeVoreOf course I dont believe you will.

Aha, a new recruit!

ecksor

Originally posted by davros
Part of the point would be to comment on the society itself - suggestions for speakers, whether there should be an annual "bent spoon" award, that sort of thing.

Still a certain amount of cross-over. There are threads on the science forums discussing the crazy beliefs that persist in certain parts of the world.

When you say want to set up a 'community' board, do you mean you have a community behind this ready to use it, or do you mean that you want somewhere to promote your society, or both?

DeVore

This should really be on feedback/suggestions but I'd be happy to give them a forum and see how it goes.
Its for organising their community and for talking about things that they want to talk about.

DeV.

davros

Originally posted by ecksor
When you say want to set up a 'community' board, do you mean you have a community behind this ready to use it, or do you mean that you want somewhere to promote your society, or both?

'Yes' to the first part anyway. This is a real society with paid membership. 130 people turned up to the last meeting.

These meetings only happen every two months however, so there is limited opportunity for discussion. And they are not so convenient if you live outside of Dublin.

I don't know how many Society members have Boards IDs. I don't know how many will sign up and post. But it will be a completely open forum so anyone with an interest or who happens along to one of the lectures is just as likely to wade in online.

Regarding promotion of the society, it's not really my aim here. I imagine most people would find the forum via our newsletter or website rather than idly thumbing through the list of community boards (though I do that myself from time to time :-)

Apologies, DeVore, for having a discussion on the Admin board

ecksor

I never get a damned apology around here.

davros

What happens next here? The sticky says the admins will move the thread to Feedback if the request has merit. But it hasn't been moved or rejected yet.

Thanks!

davros

This thread is now open for feedback. So, if you would like to see an Irish Skeptics forum (under Community/Public), please say so below. We need only 5 votes to make it happen.

Thanks!

Mercury_Tilt

This post has been deleted.

Crash

I'd be interested in this. My Girlfriend and I had a nice chat with the woman who was at DCU at the open day - stuck right in between the UFO nuts and the raelians there - good positioning

Neil

Redshift

What does this have to do with astronomy? your answer will dictate whether this stays here or goes to the recycle bin.

GuanYin

I'm afraid no matter how relevent it may be, the place to do that is the feedback/suggestions board in the admin section and not here as the people who ultimately will make the decision will want to monitor the feedback and support the suggestion gets.

As such, I'm moving this thread.

Also, I may be wrong, but I think such a forum already exists.

albertw

Originally posted by davros
I'm asking here because I reckon some of you astronomers already know of the society through recent links with Astronomy Ireland

Yea we frequently have threads wondering if we actually believe in the existance of `Astronomy Ireland` or whether its just a marketing name for a company. As you can probably already guess I'm skeptical of anyone who has links with A&S Ltd. ;-)

- The Irish Skeptics Society (ISS) was represented at Astro-Expo 2003

Luck you. Im still pissed off that my local astronomy society (and all other astronomy socieities inthe country for that matter) was not only not invited, but was excluded from having an exhibit at this event.

David Moore and Paul O'Donoghue of the ISS appeared together on the Marian Finucane show to debunk astrology

So? Sounded more like he appeared to promote himself and insult the other panel members. Something which I felt anyway left the listener feeling sorry for the astrologers with the critical (not skeptical) abuse they recieved! Poor old Fergus!

The forum will be for society members to discuss society matters and for anyone at all to ask questions about or discuss the extraordinary claims of astrology, alternative medicine, psychics, etc.

Your society already has a fourm of sorts on your webpage so why bother? Promoting yourselves this way will surely just detract users from your own webpage I would have thought?

Finally, you seem assume that we would be interested since you asume that we are interested in David Moore which isn't reflective of eveyone here. Furthermore I refer you to copies of the `Journal of Astronomy Ireland` from 1992 which carried articels on UFO paths across Ireland, so perhaps Astronomy & Space Ltd. are no as sceptical as you would assume :-)

since there are the links between our societies.

This is not a society nor represesentative of the views of `Astronomy Ireland`, just want to be clear on that :-)

You have establised that you have links with AI/A&S Ltd., I don't see any link between you and any of the other 10 or so Astronomy Soceities in the Country. Though if you have speakers who would be interested at talking or having exhibits at Astronomy events around the country then let me know and I can give you the emails of the organisers, and perhaps they could suggest some people that you may be interested in having to talk, particularly in the broad topic of `aliens`.

Apologies if I come across harsh, I usually do when people assume that if you are interested in astronomy in Ireland then you subscribe to A&S :-)

Good luck!

Cheers,
~Al
--
www.irishastronomy.org

ecksor

Merging these threads ...

Kold

Im fairly sure it's spelt sceptic





im 17 btw :P

davros

Originally posted by Kold
Im fairly sure it's spelt sceptic

You are absolutely correct - the local spelling is 'sceptic'. But there is a sort-of convention that sceptic organisations take the 'k' spelling. The Aussies went the same way, as did the European Council of Skeptical Organisations (ECSO), for example. So it's just for international consistency.

I wasn't involved in the naming of the society, BTW.

davros

Originally posted by albertw
Your society already has a fourm of sorts on your webpage so why bother? Promoting yourselves this way will surely just detract users from your own webpage I would have thought?

We have a weblog on the home page and people can attach comments to each entry. But I don't think there is any comparison between that and a properly threaded forum like this board. To take only one example, there is no way for someone to start a new topic.

The core of the society should be discussion and argument but we are really not offering the "space" for that online currently. I also hope that a board would attract a much more diverse audience, more critical and not composed solely of supporters or members of the society.

Finally, you seem assume that we would be interested since you asume that we are interested in David Moore...

Well, yes, it did come across like that. But I was really trying to appeal to your reputations as rational observers of the universe, rather than to your various (non)affiliations.

Though if you have speakers who would be interested at talking or having exhibits at Astronomy events around the country then let me know and I can give you the emails of the organisers, and perhaps they could suggest some people that you may be interested in having to talk

Excellent! I'll pass that on.

Apologies if I come across harsh

No, not at all. It has all been very enlightening :-)

GuanYin

We get a good bit of traffic on the science boards that would probably cross over into this, creationism, John Titor etc etc.

That said, I like the idea of the forum alot and have seen it work well on other forums (anomilies have a good website) but really I don't know if it would get much posting traffic.

I really thought someone said we had some sort of private X-files community board (although it may have been an ironic comment in retrospect) but as a community board or an add-on to the science sub-catagory, I endorse

Myksyk

Sounds like a great idea. Badly needed.

Calibos

It gets my vote too!

Myksyk

Sorry thread killer...can't let you have the last word. Was at the Skeptics' talk tonight in Wynn's hotel after their appearance on the Marian Finucane show this a.m. Over 100 people at it. Excellent. Stimulating brain-food ... you don't have to agree with everything ... just think!!

ecksor

That chap from NUIG on the radio this morning didn't help the self-righteousness image. He's very fond of that word 'placebo' though

Calibos

Tis a great word! I used it quite a lot in the Homeopathy thread on P.I. :D

davros

Originally posted by ecksorThat chap from NUIG on the radio this morning didn't help the self-righteousness image.

I've just gone back and listened to the show again via the Net. I have to say I just can't hear the "self-righteousness". On the contrary, he sounded very calm and reasonable and he gave plenty of credit to alternative medical practitioners for taking time to make patients feel relaxed and understood (conventional medicine is truly awful in that regard and it really does have a negative impact on health).

Anyway, it was no harm to hear the word 'placebo' a few times on that show because we don't hear it anywhere else in the media.

But I'd be happy to adjourn this discussion to a sceptical Community Forum I notice there is more than the requisite 5 votes now for an administrative decision from your good self and your fellow admins. Or do we need to garner more feedback still?

amp

I doubt this forum will ever be created. <- loL

Vader

do you or do you not believe in the force?

ecksor

Unbelievable.

CuLT

Vader, to be honest, you do come across as a religious freak.

It is comparable to someone posting "Do you believe in the power of Christ?" after every post. It's irrelevant, and highly annoying.

I don't thrust my beliefs in the face of any other boards user, and I don't expect any of them to either - unless it is a debate about religious beliefs or moral issues.

Calibos

Cult, you forgot to put smilies in your post mate! Someone will think you're being serious! You don't know the power of the darkside........You really shouln't piss Vader off!

As to the issue at hand.

I have 'Faith' that we will get our skeptics forum. :D:D:D

Myksyk

Re 'self-righteousness' and the other term heard on the show - arrogance. I can't understand these criticisms. I think they smack of middle-of-the-road extremism - i.e. don't hold a firm position on anything! The nuig guy seemed neither arrogant or self-righteous to me, he merely holds an opinion which he is happy to rigourously defend through rational debate and argument. In my book that means you're going to annoy some people. So be it. It seems some people are unable to reply with cogent argument regarding the issues.

ecksor

Originally posted by Myksyk
Re 'self-righteousness' and the other term heard on the show - arrogance. I can't understand these criticisms. I think they smack of middle-of-the-road extremism - i.e. don't hold a firm position on anything!

I said 'self-righteous', but I have actually been known to have a firm position on an issue occasionally.

However, if I'm of the opinion that he's not doing the aims of the society much good through the image he projects, and others are of the same opinion (that he presents such an image), then perhaps my opinion has some basis? That's a simple examination of the situation that justifies you having a good sceptical examination of whether he projects a good image of the society, in my opinion.

To be clear, he was an million times better than some of the previous spokespersons I've heard and I couldn't fault his assertions or his dogged determination to consider the hard evidence available. Also, I didn't say he was 'self-righteous', I commented that he didn't help that image.

For example, it doesn't seem consistent to criticise bio-healing (mis-remembering that bit perhaps) purely on the basis that there isn't a scientific explanation for it. The aims of a campaign to raise awareness about such issues should emphasise why scientific methods are considered important. And I have nothing against the word 'placebo', but again while he seemed to dismiss the effectiveness of certain treatments on the basis of the placebo effect, he never really made a clear argument as to why anyone should care why something is effective or appears to work.

And finally, he never really gave the impression that he would admit the possibility that some therapies might actually work, even if the scientific evidence wasn't to his satisfaction. (Note: Again, I'm talking about the impression he portrayed, not his own views).

If I've mistakenly used the word 'representative' or 'spokesperson' here then please let me know.

It seems some people are unable to reply with cogent argument regarding the issues.

I don't think that's entirely fair. He stood his ground very very well, but he did get some knowledgeable and intelligent comments and arguments from callers.

davros quizzed me about the comments I made at the start of this thread, so I'll repeat the response I made to him here:

In response to the question of why some earlier representatives on the radio made the society look bad

The stated aims are fine. However, when I heard your representatives I didn't think they were doing much to promote critical thinking or rational examination of the evidence (which is sorely lacking in society, I agree). I felt they were just ridiculing and belittling the point they were brought on to be a counter-example too. Amongst a group of fellow sceptics, this wouldn't have sounded so harsh btw, but in a setting where it was supposed to present the group's viewpoint to the public, it didn't sit very well

People shouldn't be encouraged to confuse scepticism and cynicism. In the grand scheme of things, your members and scientists in general don't know much more about the state of the universe than the astrologers and politicians and they should appear to examine their own views and assumptions with the same critical thought if they are to promote those practices amongst others.

Calibos

D'ya See Admins! This is the kind of lively, well balanced, intelligent debate we'll get in the skeptics forum. It'll also be a great place to move religious, homeopathic, astrology, psychic, Pyramid, Faith Healing, UFO, Conspiracy etc etc threads. Hell, you'll even be able to move threads about the merits of €2000/metre speaker cable from the Home Entertainment forum!! :D:D

davros

Originally posted by ecksor
If I've mistakenly used the word 'representative' or 'spokesperson' here then please let me know.

Dr. Brian Hughes, Marian Finucane's guest this week, is not a spokesperson for the Irish Skeptics Society. But his views are entirely consistent with the society's. And he was the speaker at this week's meeting.

However, if I'm of the opinion that he's not doing the aims of the society much good through the image he projects, and others are of the same opinion (that he presents such an image), then perhaps my opinion has some basis?

I'm sure you are well able to separate the medium from the message but I strongly suspect that, for many people, it is the message itself that leads people to form a negative opinion of the society.

I understand that there are good reasons for that. The conventional medical profession often treats patients with condescension and rudeness. The natural reaction is to say "who are these self-appointed keepers of medical know-how anyway? There is so much in this mysterious world that they cannot understand." Even without opening their mouths, sceptics get associated with the arrogance of medical consultants and are seen to defend that attitude. It's something we have to overcome. Image is very important and ecksor's and others' feedback is very valuable.

For example, it doesn't seem consistent to criticise bio-healing (mis-remembering that bit perhaps) purely on the basis that there isn't a scientific explanation for it.

It's not purely on this basis. There is no scientific explanation AND there is no evidence that it works. There are plenty of medicines and treatments that are not fully understood. But they have been shown conclusively to work through double-blind clinical trials.

If someone proposes a bizarre method of treatment like bio-healing and offers no evidence that it works, well they should at least have a plausible explanation as to why it works. If they have neither then what should we say?

he never really made a clear argument as to why anyone should care why something is effective or appears to work.

You are right, he didn't and he should have. The problem arises when society confers credibility on alternative medicine (which we do through the media, VHI, BUPA, Boots, etc.). If someone with undiagnosed cancer goes to an alternative practitioner, assuming they genuinely are an "alternative", and receives a placebo, they will not get better, their cancer will progress and the opportunity to treat them properly will pass.

If you suspect, as the Skeptics Society does, that there is no basis in fact for most of alternative medicine, then you have to start raising questions in public so our health system does not go backwards and start killing people instead of saving them.

they should appear to examine their own views and assumptions with the same critical thought if they are to promote those practices amongst others

I couldn't agree more.

Originally posted by Calibos
you'll even be able to move threads about the merits of €2000/metre speaker cable from the Home Entertainment forum!!

ecksor

Originally posted by Calibos
D'ya See Admins! This is the kind of lively, well balanced, intelligent debate we'll get in the skeptics forum.

Flattery will get you everywhere.

ecksor

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