Mothers Milk

Nevyn

Cow's milk to be made more human with New Zealand DNA engineering. The Environmental Risk Management Authority (Erma) has approved AgResearch's application to conduct field tests in Waikato.

Erma placed some limitations on the trials by limiting the experiments to 7.5 years instead of the 10 years which AgResearch requested.

But AgResearch chief executive Keith Steele is hailing the decision as a landmark in science.

http://onenews.nzoom.com/onenews_detail/0,1227,135639-1-7,00.html
http://www.gene.ch/genet/1999/Feb/msg00027.html


I really do think that This is a step too far.

and it seems that there are those in NewZealand that agree
http://www.madge.net.nz/news/prel/pr_1oct.asp

Typedef

Pig genes in tomatoes... Human genes in cows.

I think this is a highly unethical and dangerous form of pseudo-eugenic species manipulation, where this mindset of creating genetically modified organisms, can potentially lead to untold consequences on the biosphere at large.

In the main, (perhaps with caveats I can't think of right now), I completely oppose genetically modified organisms creation.

I personally don't think humans adequately understand nor care enough about the impact of GMOs on the environment and on our own species (both through environmental consequences and direct consequences of consumption) to be re-engineering organisms that have evolved over millions of years on this planet.

Beruthiel

Originally posted by Thaed
But AgResearch chief executive Keith Steele is hailing the decision as a landmark in science

Seriously, what is the point?
If our food has done us fine since the dawn of time, why do we feel the need to change it? The repercussions of actions like these may not been seen for a long time, but many years down the line there will be manifestations of some kind or other and it will be very difficult to fully reverse the damage we have done.

the money on this research could have been better spent

Stark

So what did they achieve? Getting cows to produce milk similar to mother's breast milk?

Sounds kind of stupid to me. For one, I think I heard before that breast milk is only suitable to babies, due to its make-up (high levels of antibodies/hormones or something like that).

That's a cool pic in the top post by the way.

Nevyn

apperntly they want the anitbodies and
claim that the cows are part of a cure for multiple sclerosis

http://www.mult-sclerosis.org/news/Oct2002/MSCowsReceiveSpecialTreatment.html

K2

As Beruthiel says, if it ain't broke don't fix it...it will end in disaster for mankind, another cjd type condition / disease introducted to our food chain.

Victor

My brother was at a conference the other night that was designed to get bio-tech (bio-medical devices and "agents" - direct therapies or GMOs) people together with funders (venture capitalists, private investors, corporate investors, banks, whatever). He has a BEng in Chemistry and deals with the pharmaceuticals and process industries (he sells filters, valves, sensors, widgets, gadgets, etc.). I have fairly decent understanding of biology & chemistry (B honours Leaving Cert)

We discussed various bits over dinner and there are two different directions that bio-tech is going. The first is the treatment of individuals, using drugs, transplants, artificial organs and the like. The second is the Mantsanto scheme of things of creating (copyrighted) super foods.

The example he gave was SCIDS (severe combined immunodeficiency disease - "boy in the bubble" syndrome) where few of the children outlive age 3. It might be possible to provide relief for these children so they can live a reasonably normal live. However, it potentially involves things like regular bone marrow transplants, which are horrifically painful (bone needs to be cut open). Other options might be a drug, but this drug might have side effects for, say, 10% of recipients. Let us say this side effect is Leukemia, which is treatable in maybe 30-60% of cases. For the individual, the treatment works. Other cases would be implanted devices that measure blood sugar for people with diabetes and would automatically give a dose of insulin (they are already trying this technology with older patients, but not young patients yet as they wan t to know the long term effects of such devices).

The second scenario he explained would be splicing a certain gene into rice, which would give rice a special property – say it’s own Vitamin A. This would prevent a large amount of blindness from Vitamin A deficiency in the third world. The risk is, you are transplanting rogue DNA into the food of millions of people. If something goes wrong, “Doomsday” comes to mind and AIDS could look like athletes foot in terms of scale and severity.

Tread carefully when you play God.

GuanYin

I think the Doomsday scenario is a little harsh. There have been problems with Genetically Engineered (GE) products in the past, but even in the last 10-15 years (most of these problems occured back then) science safety and health regulations have been drastically changed.

Now, I'm not sure where I stand (or more importantly, which way I face) on the GM food/commercial aspect of research but I am all for GE in disease research and prevention.

After all, many of the treatments we take for granted today were looked upon skeptically when they first came out (antibiotics, anesthetics, vaccines) and only the lack of todays standard of media and communications networking (if standard is a word you can use in media) stopped the same sort of reaction then as we see with GM today.

There's a thread on GM foods in the Biomedical Forum if anyones interested, including a nice little poll.

Syth

I think the link in the original post to the antiGM page was stupid. They originated the woman being milked pic and their arguments are silly. They think that because some people think it's ok for people to change cow milk to be more like human milk, then it's ok to turn women into cows! They reversing things round argument is ridiculus.

The same argument could be used against eating meat, saying if you think you are allowed eat cows, cows are allowed eat you! You could imagine the billboards with cows tucking into humans. Their reasons are laden with emotion which can be used to prove anything. I think they and other antiGMers should come up with some better arguments than Franken-foods.

Also about the whole 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' argument, that's stupid. Why can't we improve the quality of life for people, and increase happiness while decreasing discomfort and toil?

I think GM is OK in principle, why do we have to have extremes? Why are there only 2 camps, one saying "change nothing at all, let's get back to nature" and one camp saying "lety us change any thing and everything we want, when we want, and whenever we want". Where is the voice of reason?

Stark

I guess if the strong anti-GM feelings still presided then diabetics would still be injecting themselves with pig insulin.

K2

how quickly some kids are to say something is stupid just because its does not agree with them. We were talking about gm foodstuffs at the time, and you would encourage the risk of damaging the fragile food chain we enjoy for what exactly? So some multi nationals can make a bigger profit by growing "new products" or square fruit to fit better into packaging (the isralies have already done this), or as is more commenly the case, to increase the crop yield to increase profitability (no doubt somebody is going to argue that we can eradicate famine using gm foods but that is for another thread). Foods already exist which provide everything our bodies need, so why for example do we have to grow rice which will give us all the goodness found in oily fish? Syth, you are being naive if you think GM is about making the world a better place, its all about making money. Its business pure and simple, dress it up anyway you like, roll out all the statements about how it will save the sick kids with cancer, women who can't have babies and men who cannot operate washing machines . But in the end the only reason companies and goverments invest in its research is to make more money.

GuanYin

Originally posted by K2
how quickly some kids are to say something is stupid just because its does not agree with them.

Warning will Robinson, Irony alert!!!

Originally posted by K2
But in the end the only reason companies and goverments invest in its research is to make more money.

Totally, so we should stop all vaccine and medical research because, its not for the good of the people, its just to make money, and sure, people have been dying of those disease for ages, man why can't we just leave the world the way it is.....

As for the food chain. There is no evidence to suggest that carefully regulated GM crops would have a dramatic effect on the food chain, of course there is no evidence to suggest that it wouldn't. Which in my view is the only real issue with GM, lack of hard evidence as to what it can or can't do. Unfortunately, [cue professor fink] chaos theory suggests [/professor fink] that no simulated model will really give us an indication of how the actual full scale production would behave.


The rice is an issue as it is the only food source for alot of poorer people in some eastern regions (why this is the case is another matter) and rice doesn't contain all the food suppliments they need to be healthy. If they "GM" the rice so that it does contain all the suppliments (without generating adverse effects), the people are healthier, live longer and the GM people make more money... everyones happy.

K2

HAHAHAH you are a funny guy/girl Sykeirl. I love the get out clause "If..blah blab blah without generating adverse effects". Its those effects I am worried about. We don't know what they are, if indeed they even exist, maybe you know as you seem to be quite educated, professer but putting gm crops into fields beside other non gm crop fields increases the risk of cross contamination. Of what we don't know, but hey lets just stick our heads in sand and hope for the best! CJD is not a product of gm foods but it does show how ill thought out actions can have a hugh impact on the food chain. Feeding animal meat to herbivores is such a dumb thing to do but some bright sparks went ahead and did it, probably in the name of progress, I'm sure it had nothing to do with money. (thats sarcasm by the way!)

And please note, at no stage did I mention medical research so please don't try and prop up your arguments in such an obtuse manner, I'm sure you can do better than that.

GuanYin

Originally posted by K2
HAHAHAH you are a funny guy/girl Sykeirl. I love the get out clause "If..blah blab blah without generating adverse effects". Its those effects I am worried about. We don't know what they are, if indeed they even exist, maybe you know as you seem to be quite educated, professer but putting gm crops into fields beside other non gm crop fields increases the risk of cross contamination. Of what we don't know, but hey lets just stick our heads in sand and hope for the best! CJD is not a product of gm foods but it does show how ill thought out actions can have a hugh impact on the food chain. Feeding animal meat to herbivores is such a dumb thing to do but some bright sparks went ahead and did it, probably in the name of progress, I'm sure it had nothing to do with money. (thats sarcasm by the way!)

And please note, at no stage did I mention medical research so please don't try and prop up your arguments in such an obtuse manner, I'm sure you can do better than that.

Firstly, its not a get out clause. Every single drug you have ever used is tested for adverse effects. So are most food suppliments. If GM foods can be shown to pass to the same level, why not use them. Incidently, I assume you use antibiotics and vaccines (or would if required) nearly all of these are GM produced.

If you bother to check out the link I posted, you will see that cross contamination experiments have shown that regulation *seems* possible if measures are put in place. But again, we don't know what will happen in a wildtype macro environment. For this reason I would feel better if only certain crops were GM'd (such as those in glasshouses).

Finally, CJD has nothing to do with feeding meat to herbivores. it has to do with brain or nerve cells (where the prions live) entering the food chain. The risk and effects are the same for canirvores and omnivores eating brain or nerve cells as the people of New Guinea will testify. Yes it was wrong, yes it was probably money based but it was borne largely out of ignorance and is in no way a reasonable analogy.

K2

You obviously work in the parmacutical industry (as does my wife) , for the last time I have not mentioned or tried to compare gm foods with medicine. I know all too well the values of treatments and vacines that have been produced. I don't want to get into a debate about testing on animals either. All I am doing is expressing an opinion that meddling with the food chain can have a negative effect. The cjd is, imo, a good anology, how in gods name do you think it got into humans in the first place? It was common in the 80's for farmers to feed their cows a feed which included, amongst its tastly ingredients, the brain matter and spinal cord of other animals including sheep. People eat the cows and hey, cjd suddenly appears.

The point you raise about the New Guinea people is a good one, I assume you are talking about the practice of eating their dead? It was only the women and children who did this as the men considered human flesh unmanly, ie it was only good enough for the women not the men. But that practice has been stopped for a least 25 years, thou it may still be going on out in the bush. I cannot remember the problems this practice had on the health of the people but it wasn't good.

Oh, and I think you are still using get out clauses "*seems*"

GuanYin

Originally posted by K2
You obviously work in the parmacutical industry (as does my wife) , for the last time I have not mentioned or tried to compare gm foods with medicine. I know all too well the values of treatments and vacines that have been produced. I don't want to get into a debate about testing on animals either. All I am doing is expressing an opinion that meddling with the food chain can have a negative effect. The cjd is, imo, a good anology, how in gods name do you think it got into humans in the first place? It was common in the 80's for farmers to feed their cows a feed which included, amongst its tastly ingredients, the brain matter and spinal cord of other animals including sheep. People eat the cows and hey, cjd suddenly appears.

I cannot remember the problems this practice had on the health of the people but it wasn't good.

Oh, and I think you are still using get out clauses "*seems*"

No I am not in the pharmaceutical industry.

You are wrong about CJD. There are three major forms of CJD: sporadic, acquired, and heriditary. Acquired CJD has a sub-catagory called varient CJD.

Sporadic we do not know what causes it, it occurs even though the victims have no known exposure to risk (vegitarians and vegans have died of this). Heriditary is passed on to progeny and this is the type still occasionally raring its ugly head in New Guinea. Acquired is from eating brain and nerve tissue and varient is the type you are referring to which is supposedly BSE related.

Now, all other types of CJD have been evident long before varient CJD came on the scene, and despite what you may have read in the press the actual fall out due to varient CJD is very low, and even then because some of the recent varient attributed deaths have been sporadic CJD (as they were in a vegan and a vegetarian) the actual picture is somewhat fuzzy. Now again I say, varient CJD is the result of stupidity, but the point of GM crops is that the homework has been done and there haven't been anything like the fears of cross contamination that anti-GM lobbiers are claiming. Varient CJD was a result of ignorance, the same cannot be said about GM research.

Medicines are a very relevent arguement because they introduce alien compunds to our population that have undergone much teh same process as some GM foods. If you take the high moral ground on GM foods then you must take the same highground on GM based medication, as the risk factor there is much greater. That is why the FDA exists.

Now again, I don't think we should just turn anything and everything GM... but in cases like the GM rice, there is a strong case for it and very little hard evidence or fact that gives a reason not to.

Victor

Providing medication to small populations is one thing as that population can be tracked and monitored, altering the food supply of millions (or billions) is another. Remember the WHO campaigns in the 1960s and 1970s to treat public health diseases and the like? They are likely to have been one of the greatest contributors to the early spread of AIDS through dirty needles and improper procedures. That is the low end of the scale of the potential for GM products.

In creating GM products, the take up of the "new improved" gene can be as low 1 in 100,000 or there abouts. So one of the ways of isolating the "new improved" gene is to splice it to a "bad" gene, for which we have an antibiotic cure. So you grow a culture of a few million cells, treat it with the anti-biotic and you are then left with nearly pure "new improved"-cells. This process is repeated twice (two "bad" genes, two anti-biotics).

You now have cells that are resistant to two anti-biotics. Bacteria, being the nasty little buggers they are have the habit of transferring anti-biotic resistance. You then potentially have any infection under the sun resistant to the anti-biotic used to treat it.

K2

I bow to your superiour knowledge of cjd, but you must realise that it is accepted if not proven 100% that BSE has been aquired by humans thro beef meat and products. This was my point in mentioning cjd. We do not know what diseases can jump from species to species if we change their diet (as in bse) or introduce changes to their biological makeup.

It worries me that these experiements are not being held under controlled conditions, apart for the fact they are being held at all. Waste matter is not stopped from entering the water table by fences for example.

You have given me food for thought on the gm foods and gm medicines (apologies for the pun )