Community Service & Prison

K2

Going off topic from the "should murderers go to jail" thread....what do you think should be done with criminals when they are found guilty? I don't want to start another death penalty debate, but rather how should society deal with the guilty. I believe we should be making more and more use of community service for the petty and non violent criminals. Get the shoplifters, pickpockets and the like to help clean up the place. As for the guys and girls who need to be kept under lock and key, eg John Gilligan, should we spend millions on thearpists to reform them or should they be put to work in chain gangs or work shops within the prison? The funding for theapry could come from savings made in not imprisioning the community service people, and it can hardly be seen as a waste of money if it prevents people reoffending.

The current system doesn't appear to be working. Republicans held in Loughrea have their own private houses, Liam Lawlor can continue his business while in for a few weeks b&b. People are going back to prison again and again. Simply locking them up doesn't appear to be enough. Even the threat of it doesn't bother some sections of society, the joyriders and thugs roaming the streets day and night don't ask themselves if breaking the law is going to land them in mountjoy for a few months.

I've never been to prison and I'm sure its no holiday camp, but can it be made such an unpleasent place that you would not want to go back?

sionnach

i think community service should b compulsory for all criminals unless they've got some sort of disability. I forget how much it costs the taxpayer per year to keep some1 in prison but its a pretty big figure and i think we should get something out of them to help cover it.

K2

I'd have no problem with a pwd doing community service as long as it was appropiate eg you couldn't have a blind man picking up litter. But they should be treated as equals in all possible matters and breaking the law should be no different. I think you are right about the cost factor, it would be an effective way of keeping the prison officers overtime bills down and Joe Public would see the bad guys putting something back into society.

chill

I believe we should establish a one year penal law reform project to review all criminal penalties from the ground up.

Non violent offenders should be automatically sentenced to house arrest except for travelling to and from work - unless there are special circumstances.

Community service should also be compulsory during this period whether they have a job or not.

Breaking house arrest should lead to a compulsory custodial before returning to the original sentence.

Violent offenders should receive custodial sentences where work should be extensive and compulsory, and probationary periods should be spent under house arrest with compulsory community service.

In my opinion these principles should underlie all sentencing with some leeway allowed t o judges in special circumstancs.

Ivan

Originally posted by chill
I believe we should establish a one year penal law reform project to review all criminal penalties from the ground up.

Non violent offenders should be automatically sentenced to house arrest except for travelling to and from work - unless there are special circumstances.

Community service should also be compulsory during this period whether they have a job or not.

Breaking house arrest should lead to a compulsory custodial before returning to the original sentence.

Violent offenders should receive custodial sentences where work should be extensive and compulsory, and probationary periods should be spent under house arrest with compulsory community service.

In my opinion these principles should underlie all sentencing with some leeway allowed t o judges in special circumstancs.

The cost of enforcing house arrest would be prohibitively expensive.

K2

I thought that initally too but do they not have a tagging system in the states for young offenders who have to comply with a curfew? Sorry, I'm going from memory here but I'd have thought the technology was there and it may not cost as much to administrate. But putting somebody under house arrest is not much of a punishment if they have all the mod cons ie playstations, tv, music, pc / internet. Okay you are taking away some of their freedom of movement but its not productive punishment. Oh, and I'd disagree with violent offenders going under house arrest, they should spend their time in prison imo.

chill

Originally posted by Ivan
The cost of enforcing house arrest would be prohibitively expensive.

Why is that ? Modern technology can easily supply electronic tags that are clamped to the prisoner's ankle and tracked with satellite technology. They are used in other countries so why not here ?

It would be a tiny fraction of the cost of keeping them in prison.

chill

Originally posted by K2
I thought that initally too but do they not have a tagging system in the states for young offenders who have to comply with a curfew? Sorry, I'm going from memory here but I'd have thought the technology was there and it may not cost as much to administrate.

They are used in the US and other countries very successfuly and when tied in with satellite tracking they can be used very effectively for keeping people where are supposed to be.

But putting somebody under house arrest is not much of a punishment if they have all the mod cons ie playstations, tv, music, pc / internet. Okay you are taking away some of their freedom of movement but its not productive punishment.

I don't agree. Would you volunteer to spend three or five years under house arrest ? Spend 24/7 in your house except for approved trips, possibly to work or to community service ?
I wouldn't ! And I hasten you remind you that in prison they have tv, music, computers, internet and libraries........

Oh, and I'd disagree with violent offenders going under house arrest, they should spend their time in prison imo.

This is what I said:
"Violent offenders should receive custodial sentences where work should be extensive and compulsory"

Victor

Originally posted by K2
eg John Gilligan, should we spend millions on thearpists to reform them or should they be put to work in chain gangs or work shops within the prison? Republicans held in Loughrea have their own private houses, Liam Lawlor can continue his business while in for a few weeks b&b.

These are bad example and represent a very small proportion of the prison community. At his age, status and length of service rehabilitating John Gilligan is unlikely.

The Republicans in Loughrea don't have "private houses" - it is a low security prison with 6-8 man bungalows used for reintegrating prisoners into normal life. Liam Lawlor could do with 5-10 in general population, but is likely to only get at most 3-5.

Most prisoners do work in prison - they have to cook, clean, etc, for the entire prison and most attend classes (many are under-educated and / or have psychiatric problems). Other than Prison Officers, the Prison Service employs relatively few staff.

http://www.irishprisons.ie/

Tagging could work if you did something like they do with Superquinn supermarket trolleys - if it leaves the car park the trolley wheels lock. Put something like this on the offenders knee / ankle so they can't walk if they leave the house.

chill

Originally posted by Victor

Tagging could work if you did something like they do with Superquinn supermarket trolleys - if it leaves the car park the trolley wheels lock. Put something like this on the offenders knee / ankle so they can't walk if they leave the house.

Prisoners can wear tags where alarms go off if they go more than X yds from a base station installed in their home. They can also be tracked by GPS satellite. They can also be required to answer a computer generated phone call at random intervals and speak a word which is matched by voice print. All have been used in the US and other countries.

K2

Victor, the examples I've used had to be known names, theres is no point in me mentioning joe bloggs who robs cars every saturday nite is there. And I would have thought it fair to compare the housing in loughrea with private housing as its a far cry from the cells in mountjoy or portlaoise. I know someone in Loughrea who has access to all mod cons sky tv, pc, games rooms etc but the housing for ira inmates is, imo, not what prison accomendation should be.

Chill, Yes, I would rather spend my days locked into my own home that share a cell in a prison. Without a doubt. My home is a nice place, prison, I can only imagine, is not.

And what you said was "probationery periods should be spent under house arrest" I disagree, imo violent offenders should do their sentence in prison, every last day of it. No probation, no time off for good behaviour, their victims don't get it why should they.

The civil rights people would have a field day with the tagging system, but it seems like a good idea, esp if it was applied to young offenders who should be home after a certain time or instructed to stay away from certain areas.

bonkey

Originally posted by K2
And what you said was "probationery periods should be spent under house arrest" I disagree, imo violent offenders should do their sentence in prison, every last day of it.

But if we take that probationary periods are a given, then what - in your opinion - would be the right way to implement them?

No probation, no time off for good behaviour, their victims don't get it why should they.

Which leads to the classic - and unanswerable - discussion of Punishment vs Rehabilitation.....

Victor

Originally posted by K2
No probation, no time off for good behaviour, their victims don't get it why should they.

So they can get up to all sorts of stuff (legal but dubious or just not get caught) in prison and not suffer the consequence.

chill

Originally posted by K2
And what you said was "probationery periods should be spent under house arrest" I disagree, imo violent offenders should do their sentence in prison, every last day of it. No probation, no time off for good behaviour, their victims don't get it why should they.

But now you are changing the subject ! We were discussing the 'principle' of community service and how prisoners should serve their time.

Your point is different though valid imho. However I would say to you that whether or not a prisoner services 80% or 100% of his time in prison it is important that they get a probationary period after that to serve as a transition to the real world.

My discussion of tags is simply my view as to how prisoners should be treated during that probationary period for violent ofenders and for non violent offenders.

The civil rights people would have a field day with the tagging system

I don't believe so. In fact they would be in favour of it.

K2

bonkey, I think if a person is found guilty of a crime, they are given a sentence which covers a period of time. They should serve all this time in whatever factility the goverment provides for them. While in there I think it would be good if councilling and education were provided to these inmates but also that the enviroment is not a comfortable one ie no sky tv, computer games, access to mobile phones and the like. My hope is that when they leave prison they are more capable in dealing with the world outside and in trying to stay out of crime.

Victor, sorry I not sure if I understand your post. Is it that time off for good behaviour is a carrot for inmates to behave? Is so, I would disagree, we should all behave in a civilised manner without looking for reward. In the context of prison life good behaviour should be expected not rewarded, with some form of punishment given for bad behaviour (eg removal of visting rights, access to reading material). The original sentence given by the court should be done in full.

Chill, sorry I wasn't trying to change the subject only reply to your post. Personally I don't have any probs with tagging but I cannot see it being accept by all, the big brother conspiracies theorists would have fun with it for starters. You are correct about having to reintergrate people back into society after a spell in prison but I would not like to see this done at the expense of reducing their sentence (sorry guys I know I keep repeating this but I really believe that it should be done to the day).

Victor

Certain things like suitable food, bedding, washing, security, medical care, legal advice, reading material (specific or general), correspondence and personal possessions are absolute basic rights that cannot be taken away.

Other things like education and prisoner's allowance (<€10/week to allow purchase of "necessities" - personal hygiene, snacks, cigarettes, phone cards - a reward for doing prison work (cleaning, cooking, maintenance, teaching) are less necessary. They reinforce the societal norm of "do the work and reap the reward".

Other things like TV, radio, socialising, visiting rights, temporary leave and other things are not quite luxuries, but are the things that can make prison so much more unbearable if withdrawn.

Originally posted by K2
Victor, sorry I not sure if I understand your post. Is it that time off for good behaviour is a carrot for inmates to behave? Is so, I would disagree, we should all behave in a civilised manner without looking for reward. In the context of prison life good behaviour should be expected not rewarded, with some form of punishment given for bad behaviour (eg removal of visting rights, access to reading material). The original sentence given by the court should be done in full.

Then what incentive does a life prisoner have to not kill a prison guard?

K2

why should you need an incentive not to kill somebody?

You've picked an extreme example, I don't know what % of the Irish prison population have life sentences, and how many are actually carried out, but I would guess that the answers to both could possibly be counted on the fingers of one hand.

Cork

Community Service is probably under used. Eletronic tagging equipment could be used.

But Prisons are probably necessary for serious crime.

chill

Originally posted by K2
bonkey, I think if a person is found guilty of a crime, they are given a sentence which covers a period of time. They should serve all this time in whatever factility the goverment provides for them.

Not a point I would disagree with - but not really relevant to the subject at hand. The question here is one of whether community service etc. could be used more and whether prison conditions are too good.

Personally I don't have any probs with tagging but I cannot see it being accept by all, the big brother conspiracies theorists would have fun with it for starters.

Tagging has already been tested here and there have been no such problems. Same in the UK. Being restricted to one's house has no conspiratorial implications.

You are correct about having to reintergrate people back into society after a spell in prison but I would not like to see this done at the expense of reducing their sentence (sorry guys I know I keep repeating this but I really believe that it should be done to the day).

Neither I nor others have suggested such a reduction.
But no matter whether a prisoner completes his term or not it is important that they have some length of probation as a transition period.

You are again confusing the comments I made above. Violent offenders should go to prison. Non violent offenders should be restricted to their homes using tagging systems. Violent offenders undergoing probation (whether or NOT they serve their full term) should do so using a tagging/monitoring system