Dublin and Congestion Charges

Qadhafi

Dublin ‘well placed’ for traffic charges
By Niamh Connolly

Dublin is better placed to introduce congestion charges than London, as electronic Eazypass is already widely used as a payment system on toll bridges, according to the former managing director of Transport for London.

Derek Turner, the consultant responsible for implementing Lord Mayor Ken Livingstone’s controversial anti-congestion policy, said he believed charges would deal effectively with Dublin’s problems

Dublin should create its won scheme and develop beyond what London has achieved, Turner said. The Easypass system used on Dublin’s toll bridges gave the city “a head start” over London.

“I have no doubt that there is an efficient congestion charges scheme waiting for Dublin that will deal effectively with the problem of congestion. The Easypass system with electronic tagging would make a better system for congestion charges,” he said.

Congestion is costing Dublin businesses about €1.3 Billion a year in lost business, productivity and output, according to estimates from the Small Firms Association’s Pat Delaney.

While the London Scheme was initially greeted with scepticism, it is now widely welcomed and Livingstone’s popularity has soared is result has scored as a result, Turner told the National Traffic Summit organised by the Sunday Business Post and iQuest.

There had been a 20per cent drop in traffic, a 10-15 per cent increase in bus speeds and a 14 per cent increase in bus passengers to central London in the morning rush hour.

The scheme will net €70 million yearly for public transport reinvestment when operating costs, repayment of capital costs and enforcement costs are taken into account.

Revenue of up to €130 million yearly had been expected, based on a traffic reduction of between 10 and 15 per cent. However, the success of the scheme in reducing traffic meant an overall reduction in revenue from the charges. “This scheme is not intended as a revenue making exercise but a reduction in traffic,! Said Turner.

About 100,000 private motorists pay the flat fee of Sterling£5 if they enter the charge area Monday to Friday between 7.30am and 6.30pm. The charge which can be paid daily, weekly, monthly, or annually, rises to £10 if paid between 10pm and midnight on the day of travel.

Car registration number are observed by 688 fixed camera linked to a database and vehicle owners face a £80 fine if they haven’t paid the toll

Last week, Labour Roísín Shortall welcomed Turners statements that Dublin shouldn’t follow the example of London, which she said echoed her belief that “Dublin should not follow the example of London, which she said echoed her belief that “Dublin’s gridlock cannot be solved by these charges”

“In fact, I was saying the exact reverse,” said Turner. “I said a more appropriate scheme need to be adopted for Dublin. Congestion charges as a principle will you but it does not have to be exactly like London.”

Congestion charge still an option, says Brennan

Minister for Transport Seamus Brennan has not ruled out congestion charges for Dublin, following publication of figures showing 600,000 cars registered in the capital –almost one car per adult.

The minister said he would be keeping congestion charges under consideration but no decision would be made until major public transport project including Luas, the Dublin Port Tunnel, and the M50 were completed and quality bus corridors had doubled to 18 according to a spokesman.

“The minister accepts that the major infrastructure projects under way will have a major impact on traffic in Dublin, but congestion charges will remain an option if car ownership continues to grow at the rate its going” the spokesman said.

The Dublin Transportation Office is conducting a study on the feasibility of congestion charges in Dublin.
“Once the major transport projects – including the Dublin Port Tunnel are up and running, we will see how effective these are. We then have to look at the car population, and retain congestion charges as an option” a spokesman said.

Whats everyone's thoughts on a congestion charges? Its pointed out that post Luas,QBC etc it could be introduced. I think its a good idea,"600,000 cars registered in the capital –almost one car per adult." it would make travel that bit easier

gurramok

Congestion charges only work if there is viable alternative like public transport for journeys and the size of the area to be charged is a factor.
At the moment if one were to avoid the initial area that was spoken about (between the canals), the traffic would have to go onto the canal ring which is gridlocked as it is in rush hour.
London is different as the charge was implemented in a smaller area than above plus they do have good public transport system.

However, as they say a congestion charge wont come in until all the projects are finished, it could be several years before it happens

Qadhafi

we should have twice the amount of bus corridors then, the luas up and running (joke),the port tunnel (i really am making this hard for myself) and increased capcaity on DART/Arrow.

There is a huge amount of singe people in their cars, and the money generated could be put straight back into something tangible like more buses etc

It was noted that the congestion charge would have to suit Dublin however I think there are alot of advantages in the scheme.

Johnmb

Well, I will tell you this, I will never pay a charge in order to drive in my own city. If they want to get traffic moving, then they should hire a competent director of traffic. I also won't be the only one refusing to pay to drive into my own city, so if anybody (whether national or local government) tries to implement such charges, they better be ready for some major legal challanges, and a lot of possibly not-so-legal ones too.

Victor

Originally posted by Qadhafi
we should have twice the amount of bus corridors then,

http://www.dublincity.ie/traffic/city.htm - current
http://www.dto.ie/fig2.pdf - eventual

Originally posted by Qadhafi
the luas up and running (joke),

www.luas.ie

Originally posted by Qadhafi
the port tunnel (i really am making this hard for myself) and

http://www.dublincity.ie/porttunnel/index1.cfm

Originally posted by Qadhafi
increased capcaity on DART/Arrow.

www.dash.ie

DadaKopf

Originally posted by Johnmb
Well, I will tell you this, I will never pay a charge in order to drive in my own city. If they want to get traffic moving, then they should hire a competent director of traffic. I also won't be the only one refusing to pay to drive into my own city, so if anybody (whether national or local government) tries to implement such charges, they better be ready for some major legal challanges, and a lot of possibly not-so-legal ones too.

So exactly what measure do you suppose would be strong enough to urge people to leave their cars at home? A slap on the bum? Look, congestion charges are an effective way to discourage people from driving in congested cities. I'd honestly love it if people here were sensible enough to take the responsibility on themselves and car pool etc. but they won't because nothing's stopping them and, frankly, they have pitiful attitudes like yourself.

In the interests of mobilising some civic responsibility in solving a problem to which we're all involved (but one which I'm not responsible for because I don't drive), I can't see the harm in introducing congestion charges in the next five years, transport infrastructure or not (I think there'll have been enough investment to make it viable by then anyway).

Here's a plan: there's one car for every three people in the city. The Council introduces congestion charges, encouraging more drivers to car pool, increasing the amount of people per car per square meter. Then you drivers can split the costs and, since you're all so attached to your cars - because you equate it with freedom or value for money, or something - can split the cost between you, which shouldn't come to more than a bus/train/tram fare anyway.

Then all that money you guys generate is pumped into the public transport system and everyone's happy.

Simple.

Johnmb

So exactly what measure do you suppose would be strong enough to urge people to leave their cars at home?

Why should we urge people to leave their cars at home? Are people truely that incompetent in this country that they can't try to come up with a way to keep trafic moving, thus allowing car owners to drive to their destinations?

A slap on the bum? Look, congestion charges are an effective way to discourage people from driving in congested cities.

And that way of thinking I consider quite pathetic. If you think it is too difficult to do something constructive (or allow common sense to prevail in some cases) to solve congestion, then don't look for the job, and let competent people with good ideas run the show.

I'd honestly love it if people here were sensible enough to take the responsibility on themselves and car pool etc. but they won't because nothing's stopping them and, frankly, they have pitiful attitudes like yourself.

I think the pitiful attitude belongs to you. All you can come up with is to make things as difficult as possible for drivers? One easier way to encourage car pools would be to allow them to use bus lanes.

I can't see the harm in introducing congestion charges in the next five years, transport infrastructure or not (I think there'll have been enough investment to make it viable by then anyway).

That's the kind of short sighted thinking that has lead us to where we are now. Let's just push ahead, regardless as to whether the infrastructure can handle it or not. Yeah, great idea. :rolleyes:

Here's a plan: there's one car for every three people in the city. The Council introduces congestion charges, encouraging more drivers to car pool, increasing the amount of people per car per square meter. Then you drivers can split the costs and, since you're all so attached to your cars - because you equate it with freedom or value for money, or something - can split the cost between you, which shouldn't come to more than a bus/train/tram fare anyway.

Why should we? We already pay ridiculous amounts of tax in order to drive, and very little of it is reinvested in the roads, so why should we pay even more just for you?

Then all that money you guys generate is pumped into the public transport system and everyone's happy.

Why should us drivers by forced to finance your public transport on top of all the other things that we already finance that have nothing to do with driving our cars?

Victor

Originally posted by Johnmb
Well, I will tell you this, I will never pay a charge in order to drive in my own city.

Yeah and they won't let ye drive the bus into the pub (i.e. PUBLIC house) either. :P

Originally posted by Johnmb
Why should we urge people to leave their cars at home? Are people truely that incompetent in this country that they can't try to come up with a way to keep trafic moving, thus allowing car owners to drive to their destinations?

Because there are too many cars at the same time and too many junctions on too few streets.

Originally posted by Johnmb
And that way of thinking I consider quite pathetic. If you think it is too difficult to do something constructive (or allow common sense to prevail in some cases) to solve congestion, then don't look for the job, and let competent people with good ideas run the show.

So what are you suggesting? What are your "good ideas"?

Originally posted by Johnmb
One easier way to encourage car pools would be to allow them to use bus lanes.

It doesn't work. Bus lanes are already at a strech inplaces because of taxis. Secondly people who would car share are ex-bus passengers, not ex-car drivers.

Originally posted by Johnmb
very little of it is reinvested in the roads, so why should we pay even more just for you?

Only about €1,500,000,000 this year on road construction (not including maintenance, policing, etc.).

Originally posted by Johnmb
Why should us drivers by forced to finance your public transport on top of all the other things that we already finance that have nothing to do with driving our cars?

Because every bus on the road means 50-100 less cars in front of you.

Qadhafi

The congestion charge is a good idea because of the huge amount of 1 person per 1 car in Dublin and other cities in Ireland. a good theory I heard about the market was this:

anything free gets used up to the max. if its free everyone will use it even if they dont necessarily need it. Once you put a price on the commodity its value rises. The only question is, what price should the congestion charge be to cut down the amount of cars in Dublin?

It was pointed out that in New York, lots of people live and die, without every taking a driving test. Public transport is far from perfect here but thats the way to go.

Anyone who tries to argue that the car is at the top of the pyrimad of transport is living in 1960. Its a huge contributor for traffic, for such a small number of people it transports. The government is spending HUGE sums of money on motorways primarily for the private car. - WHY ?

Any road built is just going to fill with traffic, any motorway built can expect huge traffic jams in future years. We already have as many cars as we do houses, cars are only really acceptable in rural areas.

Johnmb

Originally posted by Victor
Because there are too many cars at the same time and too many junctions on too few streets.

So you are saying that the current people are too incompetent to come up with any original ideas to keep traffic moving.

So what are you suggesting? What are your "good ideas"?

Fire the people who currently make the decisions, and hire people who have the intelligence to come up with actual ideas (not just rehashes of what the British do) and who use common sense. Yet another example of common sense not being used off the top of my head was a few years back when the Luas works meant diverting all northside bound traffic from the Four Courts up O'Connell Street. At the same time the idiots in charge halved the capacity of northbound O'Connell Street by widening the path at the GPO (one lane gone) and allowing preliminary work for the spike to take up half another lane. It only requires a minute bit of common sense to put off closing half the capacity of the road until after you are no longer diverting extra traffic along that route.

It doesn't work. Bus lanes are already at a strech inplaces because of taxis.

Where?

Secondly people who would car share are ex-bus passengers, not ex-car drivers.

Well if that's the case, then it is a failing on the part of Dublin Bus.

Only about €1,500,000,000 this year on road construction (not including maintenance, policing, etc.).

The amount of money spent by the Irish government on Irish roads does not come close to the amount of money that they earn from Irish drivers, from duty on fuel, road tax, VRT, VAT (on top of the duties, meaning taxing the tax), etc.

Because every bus on the road means 50-100 less cars in front of you.

No it doesn't, it just means another bus in front of you, taking up a perfectly good lane on the road. The last time the buses went on strike, and cars could use the bus lanes, the traffic moved a lot better, and there was no large scale absenteeism. The fact is that there are not that many cars in Dublin, considering the size of the city. Just look at other cities around the world. All it takes is a little common sense, and some forward thinking, to keep things moving. But unfortunately, thinking in general seems to be something the current people in charge don't do much of.

DadaKopf

Face it Johnmb: you're just arguing against congestion charges because you're a driver and you don't like the idea of paying to drive through the city centre.

You're like the people who protested against the introduction of no parking zones and traffic wardens in 1960. When they were introduced (like congestion charging), people didn't actually mind. You're inconvenienced by a measure to tackle not just a concenience problem but an economic and social problem (business and people are suffering as a result of congestion).

Like traffic wardens, and clamping companies, these are the best methods currently available to the state to discourage, as you say yourself, incompetent and irresponsible drivers from blocking the streets of Dublin.

As already mentioned, congestion charges are just one element being considered as part of a larger, integrated strategy to solve Dublin's traffic crisis. The imaginative component comes in the form of a workable strategy.

Qadhafi

For those intrested...
London Congestion Charges

Those car drivers that first think of congestion charges and immediately think negative thoughts should take a look. Not everyone would be liable to pay the charge, the campain can be specifically focused.

Typedef

Originally posted by gurramok
Congestion charges only work if there is viable alternative like public transport for journeys and the size of the area to be charged is a factor.

Catch 22.

Viable public transport only happens when there is a demand for it!

Yes Congestion charges worked for London (at least until it becomes congested with motorcycles and bikes), so it will work for Dublin too, if implemented.

gurramok

You're inconvenienced by a measure to tackle not just a concenience problem but an economic and social problem (business and people are suffering as a result of congestion).

Its not the car driver fault why that this problem exists in the first place. If there is adequate public transport to get me to my destination circa the same time it would take at present, i for one would avail of it.
At the moment it would take 2 hrs by 2 buses for a 45 min journey in car and thats stuck in jams, buses have the bus lanes
Imposing a congestion charge would just move the problem elsewhere like onto the outer suburbs as a detour to avoid the charge. I would not pay the charge, i would have to divert to another area to get to my destination hence causing more tailbacks and harming the environment with more car pollution.

Because there are too many cars at the same time and too many junctions on too few streets.

Dont forget to remember those parents in their SUV's who drop their kids to school, 16 yr olds and all !
Traffic was free-wheeling all summer until the schools got back, it added 35 min(doubled) to my daily journey when i left the house at 8pm.
Now i leave at 7:15pm to get 45 min journey rather than at 8:15am in summer when it took a mighty 35 min journey time.
Why on earth dont they have school buses to take the kids to school in absence of public transport like in usa ??

Traffic sequencing is a also a big factor why jams occur alot, since the buses got the power to alter the sequencing, things have gone haywire with tailbacks.

as you say yourself, incompetent and irresponsible drivers from blocking the streets of Dublin.

and..

We already have as many cars as we do houses, cars are only really acceptable in rural areas.

How do ye get to work\college\whatever ?
Do ye have public transport available ?