1 Month in Jail

bloggs

http://www.examiner.ie/breaking/2003/09/19/story114124.html

Although i disagree with the bin-tax, i can't say im not the tiny bit smug to see Joe going to jail

Sleipnir

ah it's a bit much.
Lawlor gets a week for perjury (which I believe is as serious as treason in law?) and tax evasion.
Where he's segregated from all the other prisoners, gets to use the gym on his own, has a guard with him 24hrs and has his mobile and laptop with him.

And these guys get a month for protesting.

it's all about who you know.

mike65

A pity not cos part of me don't want Higgins to have an intimate dance with Bubba and company but because he will have become a feckin martyr to the "neverending class war cause".

I see full wheelie bins casting off thier tags and throwing themselves at representatives of the ruling classes!

Mike.

sixtysix

this bin campaign is all about getting joe higgins reelected. if he succeeds in getting the bin tax derailed it can only add to the level of direct taxation, most of which is born by the paye sector anyway.

star gazer

I think Joe Higgins is one of the most potent politicians Ireland has and it is symptomatic of the pert-time Dáil that we have that a TD has no legitimate forum to protest for half the year. It is also the case that legislation brought through this year took the power to set waste charges away from elected councillors to city managers.
Having said all that Joe H is wrong in what he is doing and should behave like the law-maker he is not a law breaker. If he has a problem with the waste charges why didn't he disrupt the Dáil when it was bringing the legislation in. It is an opportunistic stunt, that will jsut distance the socialist party from any real power (ie govt)

Villain

Originally posted by sixtysix
this bin campaign is all about getting joe higgins reelected. if he succeeds in getting the bin tax derailed it can only add to the level of direct taxation, most of which is born by the paye sector anyway.

I think you mean:

This bin tax campaign for joe higgins is all about getting himself re-elected.

The campaign for the people it's affecting (i.e. the working class people) is to stop another taxation by a government that due to its mis managment feels its just and right to tax the working class while licking the well off's arses.

The Muppet

Its disgraceful that these two should go to jail for representing their electorate. Others will pay at the polling stations next time.
I thought part of democracy was the right to peaceful protest.
BTW I pay my bin tax as I believe in the polluter pays policy. I just dont agree with what happened in the high court today.

Sand

Good.

Glad to see that finally courts are willing to hold protestors responsible for their actions. Only a pity they didnt get more.

Boston

Originally posted by Sand
Good.

Glad to see that finally courts are willing to hold protestors responsible for their actions. Only a pity they didnt get more.

hmm wonder if you would say that if you knew who was let out of prison for these two to be but behind bars. Yes lock up people for protesting, and shot people for throwing stones, thats what your into, isn't sands.

Personally coming from a high crime area i'm discussed to see anybody gettign a month in jail for such a meaningless thing while drug dealers walk my streets due to lack of resources

Villain

Originally posted by Boston

Personally coming from a high crime area i'm discussed to see anybody gettign a month in jail for such a meaningless thing while drug dealers walk my streets due to lack of resources

Well said Boston great Point

I bet you, you could beat up an old woman and get a less sentence, or sell 14 year old kids some hash.

Boston

caught selling hash, sure it wouldn't ever even get the court

Sand

hmm wonder if you would say that if you knew who was let out of prison for these two to be but behind bars. Yes lock over people for protesting, and shot people for throwing stones, thats what your into, isn't sands.

Thats right Boston.

Personally coming from a high crime area i'm discussed to see anybody gettign a month in jail for such a meaningless thing while drug dealers walk my streets due to lack of resources

Mustve been one tough case to crack. I heard they assembled a 60 strong team of detectives and 100 gardai to job of bringing Joe "Kaiser Sose" Higgins down.

The only outrage is the fact that it took such a short time to jail Higgins when there are backlogs of literally years in other cases.

Boston

Sorry Sands i must have my priorities messed up, political prisoners should allways be put before arresting actual criminals who mess real people up. you arguements don't wash with moi.

gurramok

Agree with Boston on this one.
They were very quick to jail them for a month for peaceful protest yet local thugs only get a slap on the wrist for the gravest of crimes.

What should of been done is a fine imposed rather than jail as 2 prison spaces could be opened up for the real scum that ply the streets.

Justice system is a joke, this case proves it yet again.

Cork

Originally posted by The Muppet
Its disgraceful that these two should go to jail for representing their electorate.

People should pay for their waste. Who will pay for Mr. Higgins stay in Prison?

Many socialists across Europe support local tax. But Joe does not.

But he should respect the law. People across Ireland pay for refuse. The polluter pays. Should we start evading tax?

I think since the abolishion of rates - local services need funding.

Dampsquid

They were very quick to jail them for a month for peaceful protest yet local thugs only get a slap on the wrist for the gravest of crimes.

They were ausing a public health risk, they deserve to go to prison, and if more of them still protest, i hope they go to prison too.

secret_squirrel

Originally posted by Dampsquid
They were ausing a public health risk, they deserve to go to prison, and if more of them still protest, i hope they go to prison too.

Oh get real a few uncollected bins and bag..yea that will bring the plague back.

Anyone who doesnt think the bin tax is the thin end of a local taxation wedge is a naive fool. We pay too much in central taxation as it is with out adding local taxation too.

Im for paying for what you throw away in principle but how long before the charges go up to pay for some local councillors vanity project?

And 4 weeks is a joke compared to what that scumbag Lawlor got

The only problem I have with the anti-bin tax campaigners is that it seems synonymous with the socialist party..(especially that loon Clare Daley) which Im sure has put a lot of people off. I live in a relativly well off area...only about 10% of the bins are tagged. If we could get those sort of people protesting to there would be a chance of beating the tax.

AngelofFire

i think its an absolute disgrace. The likes of Liam Lawlor and michael Lowry can get away with swindling millions of pounds worth of tax at a time when the country had no money but Joe higgins has to go to jail for protesting against a tax that doesnt need to exist during a time of considerable prosperity.

Joe is a true marytr im not a socialist party supporter but i have always admired joe higgins. Many cynics say he is trying to get himself relected. I disagree i remember when he came in for a talk at my school he discussed a variety of international issues such as the cost of HIV treatment Drugs in the 3rd world. He is genuinly intersted in every issue he persues.

The bin tax is a farce. We pay n uff income tax as it is why should we have to pay for something that is a necessity like garbage disposal. In 5 years time we`ll have to pay for drinking water maybe even oxygen.

If the authorities are short of money they should go after the rich farmers and bussiness men instead of putting more cost on the overburdned Paye sector.

Éomer of Rohan

I'm not even getting into an argument on this; the double taxation is preparation for the Irish government to farm out the collection of waste to private companies who will in turn try to break the union involved in the collection thereof, reducing standards of work and more than likely wages nothing more.

That ANYONE can sit and say that a peaceful, non-violent form of protest deserves anyone arrested is outrageous and I will be joining hundreds of my comrades in Dublin tomorrow for the protests to make the point clear.

I emailed Sean Dolphin about the whole charade - needless to say he was less than helpful and more than a little sarcastic. Bastard.

One other thing, Joe Higgins and Clare Daly could not care less about re-election - I know both personally and that's more than the rest of you can say. They want what is best for the working class (and in many cases middle class!) people of Ireland, whether in the Fingal area or out of it.

I have nothing but disdain for anyone who can sit and say that they s****** or look down on what we are trying to do because most of those people haven't the intelligence or the balls to do it themselves - to stand up for those poorer than themselves who, while they sit and s******, might not be able to afford this new tax.

Éomer of Rohan

Why is s_n_i_g_g_e_r a blocked word?

Éomer of Rohan

Northern trade union leaders call for protests at jailing of Bin Tax campaigners

The jailing of Socialist Party TD Joe Higgins and Cllr Clare Daly for one month for their refusal to cease campaigning against the bin tax in Dublin is an attack on working class peoples rights to protest against injustice.

Both Joe and Clare were elected to the Dail and Fingal County Council respectively with a mandate to oppose the introduction of bin charges and to represent the thousands of families who are opposed to bin charges. Bin Charges are a form of double taxation.

Under the present Southern Government, more than 80% of all income tax is collected from the working class under the PAYE system. PAYE workers do not object to paying for the service but certainly do object to paying twice.

The agenda of the establishment is to defeat resistance to the bin tax, make the tax collectible, reintroduce the hated water charges and bring local taxation up to the 1000 euro a year mark.

The Government and the Councils try to portray the tax as an environmentally friendly measure based on the principle that "the polluter pays". However, the point is that the polluter manifestly does not pay in the southern State. A couple of years ago total national waste came to 80 million tonnes. Of this, a mere 1.2 million tonnes was accounted for by household waste. Most of the rest was accounted for by big business and agriculture. Yet ordinary householders were hit with service charges and big business was rewarded with the lowest corporate tax rates in Europe.

The jailing of Joe Higgins and Clare Daly for fighting for the rights of working class people is been met with outrage throughout the country. This is at the same time that millionaire tax dodgers have been found to have cheated the tax man of a small fortune by hiding money in offshore Ansbacher bank accounts. Not a single Ansbacher Man has seen the inside of a prison cell.

The defeat of the bin charges in the South would also be a victory for working people in Northern Ireland. Campaigns are presently being built across the North to organise non-payment of the planned water charges which are also designed to financially cripple working class people even further.

We are calling for workers throughout Northern Ireland to protest and show solidarity with Joe and Clare and with the working class people of Dublin fighting the bin tax.

Yours,

Carmel Gates, NIPSA President (personal capacity)

Padraig Mulholland, NIPSA General Council member (personal capacity)

Brian Booth, NIPSA General Council member (personal capacity)

Kevin Lawrenson, NIPSA General Council member (personal capacity)

Paul Dale, NIPSA General Council member (personal capacity)

Mary Cahillane INTO Executive member

Gordon McNeill,

Madan Gumpta,

Chris Bowyer, sacked airport shop stewards

Jim Barbour, FBU Executive Committee

Jim Quinn FBU, Chairperson NI

Tony Maguire, Belfast Trades Council

Anton McCabe, Omagh Trades Council

Mickey Duffy, NIPSA Fermanagh & Tyrone Health Branch

Harry Hutchinson, Secretary T&GWU Mid-Ulster & West Branch

Peter Hadden,

Gary Mulcahy,

Ciaran Mulholland,

Northern Regional Executive Committee, Socialist Party

bugler

Why is s_n_i_g_g_e_r a blocked word?

It isn't, but take away its 's' and you get a word that is.

These jailings show that politicians are not above the law in Ireland. I nearly typed that with a straight face.

Éomer of Rohan

It shows that politicians who are not a willing prostitute to the ruling class are not above the law.

The Muppet

They were very quick to jail them for a month for peaceful protest yet local thugs only get a slap on the wrist for the gravest of crimes

This point was perfectly illustrated to anyone who saw that little girl from tallagh on the Late late Last night.

Initally posted by cork

People should pay for their waste. Who will pay for Mr. Higgins stay in Prison?

I said in my inital post that i agreed with the polluter pays principle. I dont agree that anyone should go to jail for the henious crime of peaceful protest.

Sand

Sorry Sands i must have my priorities messed up, political prisoners should allways be put before arresting actual criminals who mess real people up. you arguements don't wash with moi.

Hey Boston, Im in favour of locking up lawbreakers full stop. Whether you think its okay to commit certain crimes or not. Higgins willfully broke the law. The court can then decide to punish him or we might as well abandon law and order and tell everyone to go home as you only have to obey the law when you feel like it.

Just because youre on a protest doesnt mean you can suddenly decide the law no longer applies to you.

Theres no either/or here. Punishing Higgins did not significantly hinder the Gardais chances of catching other law breakers.

Villain

Originally posted by Dampsquid
They were ausing a public health risk, they deserve to go to prison, and if more of them still protest, i hope they go to prison too.

Well if you get robbed or have your child beaten up and then have the DPP say they they won't proceed with the case you might look differently.

Politicians have done a lot worse in this country and got away with it.

Lawlor only got a week for gods sake

oneweb

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
Why is s_n_i_g_g_e_r a blocked word?

Hyper-sensitive censor.

Anyway, it is a disgrace that it comes to this. That Mr. Higgins has had to go to such lengths to express his and the views of much of the average householder - and still be ignored.

What really pissed me off was Aherne calling non-payers spongers :mad: Er, I seem to recall generous self-payrises, massive purchases (another jet, anyone?), personal projects (millions spent, nothing material to show for it) et al, sponging off taxpayer's hard-earned money, which is supposed to be used for the running and improvement of the country's infrastructure and services to benefit 4 million people, not 40. :rolleyes: But I digress.

Shambles. At least some people have the guts to stick to their beliefs and not be scared out of them.

Cork

Originally posted by secret_squirrel

Anyone who doesnt think the bin tax is the thin end of a local taxation wedge is a naive fool. We pay too much in central taxation as it is with out adding local taxation too.

We are not heavily taxed compared to EU tax rates. People expect to pay for the waste thay produce. The government is surposed to dispose of it.

Waste disposal costs money. The polluter does have to pay. Joe Higgins should have been fined. How much will it cost to keep this individual in prison?

Many socialists across Europe back local taxation. How much does it cost to rent a refuse truck for a week? If a lorry is held up - the protesters should pay for it.

The IFA got a massive fine for protesting in front of meat factories - I think J Higgins got off pretty light.

What really pissed me off was Aherne calling non-payers spongers Er, I seem to recall generous self-payrises, massive purchases (another jet, anyone?), personal projects (millions spent, nothing material to show for it) et al, sponging off taxpayer's hard-earned money, which is supposed to be used for the running and improvement of the country's infrastructure and services to benefit 4 million people, not 40. But I digress.

The government is not buying new jets. But is it acceptable people not to pay for charges for items they consume? There is a seperation of powers of politics & the courts. Who pays Mr. Higgins salary? The people of Cork are paying refuse charges for years. Most accept these charges.


Yet, when charges are imposed in sections of our capital - there is outcry.

Biffa Bacon

I agree. People who break the law should not be punished. The authorities should always turn a blind eye to flagrant law-breaking if it's politically convenient for them to do so. After all, from paedophile priests to tax-dodging Taoisigh, that's what's made this country great.

RainyDay

Higgins wasn't locked up for a peaceful protest. He is, of course, quite entitled to protest peacefully & democratically on this matter. He is not entitled to obstruct bin lorries which are collecting waste from those who have chosen to pay their tax and create a health hazard for many communities.

Comparisons with Lawlor, Lowry, paedophiles are irrelevant. The judge didn't have a choice of Higgins or Lowry yesterday. He had the choice of jailing Higgins or not jailing Higgins. He chose to jail Higgins.

SkepticOne

I disagree with bin charges. I think it should be paid out of general tax revenue.

I've not problem with Higgins going to jail if he broke the law.

Cork

Originally posted by SkepticOne
I disagree with bin charges. I think it should be paid out of general tax revenue.

I've not problem with Higgins going to jail if he broke the law.

Prior to 1977 - Irish people paid rates and local tax - so local taxes in Ireland are no way new.

In West Cork - your rubbish bill is based on the wieght of your rubbish in your bin. It is encouraging people to cut down on the amount of refuse they put into their bins.

It is encouraging people go go to bring sites. It costs alot to operate landfill sites. People should be encouraged to recycle. Having flat or no waste collection charges hardly encourages recycling.

In a country where schools and health need resources - people who expect their rubbish to be collected for free need to get away and accept responsibility for the rubbish they produce.

I wish they was a magic wound that could make it disappear - but landfill costs many €. There is nobody asking people to put out bins every week. It is up to these people to seperate and recycle their rubbish. They will also need to pay a collecter to dispose of what remains.

Expecting the state to pay for peoples rubbish is OTT.

secret_squirrel

Originally posted by Cork
Prior to 1977 - Irish people paid rates and local tax - so local taxes in Ireland are no way new.
......
Expecting the state to pay for peoples rubbish is OTT.

Yea so that means for the biggest part of 25 years we havent had to pay local taxes (and presumably national taxation increased at that time)

Why its just as OTT as expecting the state to pay for roads, water etc. That is - not at all OTT.

There is no reason why rubbish collection couldnt be paid for at the national level. Instead its yet another example of the govt taking our tax money to piss up the wall on their pet projects whilst we also get bin taxes as the thin end of a wedge of new local taxation.

The national income tax rates are already obscene without adding local taxation into the mix. Giving local coucilors or worse city managers carte blanche to raise local taxes is just creating an environment where they can rob us as well.

Does any one believe that the money raised by bin taxes is going to be used only for that. Before you know it, it will be being used for every pet project going.

dudara

i personally believe that if you generate waste, then you pay to have it taken away. Simple as that.

On the other hand however, the government aren't doing enough to enocourage waste reduction through recycling etc.

Higgins was obstructing the waste collectors, which isn't the most pleasant of jobs I'd imagine. He was preventing civil employees from carrying out their duties.

This is a tricky one, no one wants to pay more taxes, but there is a lot of hyprocrisy going on here, especially in his jail sentence, considering he wasn't defrauding the country like so many others.

Boston

Actually waste collection and street sweeping are very nice jobs, i know several people doing these jobs, the basic rates, the overtime, and all the little jobs make it very worth while. A friend of mine comes out with close to 600 euros a week for street sweaping around town. wouldn't have believed it if i hadn't seen it.

Sands, won't disagree with you that all law breakers should be punished, but imprisoned, i think not. Don't tell me you have broken even the most minor of laws. ITs all about the real world, and in the real world a man who stabbed another man 30 times was out on a thousand euros bail afew months ago. I guy i know, his brother was stabbed to death, person who did it got 38 months in prison. I'd rather that guy go two more months then these protestors got a month each.


To the person who argued that they caused a health hazzard by block bin trucks from picking up rubbish, don't forget that it was the intension of these bin men not to collect rubbish from certain areas, is that not a major health hazzard. what are people for whome their bins are not collected meant to do? store their rubbish in their gardens, dump illegaly, burn it?

PhilipMarlowe

Higgins et al. were jailed for deliberately being in contempt of a court order…
Lawlor was jailed for failure to co-operate with a tribunal (not for his dodgy dealings…yet).

If you believe that Higgins shouldn’t have been jailed for his obstreperousness, then you’d also agree that Lawlor shouldn’t have been either?
No?

Boston

lawler got a week for what he did, which was contempt, for lieing and perveting the course of justice. higgins was jailed for not bending to the powers that be, agenda. Question is, do you think lawler will ever serve any more time

Also it had taken years of contempt before he was sent to jail, higgins was there within a week. hmm seems like two systems going.

mike65

Originally posted by secret_squirrel
Yea so that means for the biggest part of 25 years we havent had to pay local taxes (and presumably national taxation increased at that time)

The national income tax rates are already obscene without adding local taxation into the mix.

Income tax rates are now the lowest they have EVER been
since this state became vaguely modern.

Back in the era just after local rates (and car tax) were abolished the standard rate of Income tax was around 35% with the top rate in the 60% area, whatsmore you went off the standard rate at a very low income.

Mike.

Sparks

We are not heavily taxed compared to EU tax rates.

I'm not even sure that that's true in the first place, but in the second place, goodbody's have been pointing out to anyone that reads them that the song is coming to an end in terms of the Irish economy because in a few years we are expected to start contributing to EU funds on the order of a billion euro plus per year.
So you can't just point to the tax level now and say "erra, sure and 'tis grand". Our house must be in order when that first bill arrives, because there won't be any way to get it in order after that, the money won't be there.

Now I've got no problem with local taxation - for some services, like bin collection, it makes the most sense and is the fairest means. But we've already paid for it in income tax, so lumping another local tax onto the bill without tax relief on the income tax is simply out of the question.

And to forestall two obvious responses:
1) I'm not in Dublin, and we've been paying a private company for waste removal for years,
2) The tax relief you do already get on local services amounts to 38 euro and it covers water taxes, not bin taxes.

This whole episode is highlighting the fact that Local Authorities are a shambolic setup in this country, treated as mushrooms by central government, and that has got to stop.

Éomer of Rohan

Quoted from Biffa Bacon
I agree. People who break the law should not be punished. The authorities should always turn a blind eye to flagrant law-breaking if it's politically convenient for them to do so. After all, from paedophile priests to tax-dodging Taoisigh, that's what's made this country great

Well, let's see now, Joe Higgins, TD who was bloody elected for his promise to the working peoples of Dublin West that he would help them in their struggle against the increasing tax burden that the government was readying is arrested for doing exactly what the people gave him a mandate to do.

The high court order was ridiculous. In an establishment that is probably as conservative as the UK at it's worst, what chance has Joe Higgins and, every so often, Gregory Taylor? Joe got out on the streets like the activist he is - and let me just point out that while Bertie spends his wages on big house, fancy attire etc, Joe Higgins pays thousands of Euros to the SP AND to the various campaigns NOT run by the Socialist Party on behalf of the working class people of Ireland.

That the tax has been voted on at the bracket which was declared the lower bracket in the initial government planning stage was due to the objections of the Socialist Party and other left wing groups.

If you wish to sit and pay the tax, fine, that's your prerogative, but damn anyone of you that condemns Clare Daly, a women who is now separated from her child for a month, for standing up for her beliefs and her constituents beliefs in the only feasible manner that was open to them. Damn anyone of you who condemns Joe Higgins, one of the few remaining TD's who spends his time not in the bureaucratic centres of Dublin but making damn sure he is representing his constituents.

This is not ultimately about some stupid tax - the government of the Republic has introduced so many taxes in the last four years that I have lost count. The creation of a double taxation is preparation for a privatisation that will make no dent in the governmental coffers while at the same time, farming out the public sector waste collection to a private company who will cut workers wages and deplete the service.

Make snide comments all you will, and know that this is a fight that more than likely the Socialist Party and the people of Dublin and especially Fingal cannot win, despite the two hundred people that turned up to a Socialist Party march in Swords and the many more that turned up to the other marches but we are damned if we will allow an attack on the representatives of our party to go unanswered when clearly both the initial High Court order and the arrest were political gestures made by the establishment, a function as old as democracy itself.

irishman_abroad

Quick question


How many people here are directly affected by the bin tax? ie actually have to pay not parents etc

I am and I just want to have my rubbish collected, its been three weeks now that the protestors have blocked the trucks in my area(Blanchardstown), what makes it worse is

1. I saw a bin truck stopped on the way out of another estate, ie they had let them take thier own rubbish and then stopped it. And

2. Some w@nker actually went around ripping up the tags of people who had paid. Now theyre just lucky I wasnt there, coz one of us was gonna get arrested.

Éomer of Rohan

Quoted from irishman_abroad
How many people here are directly affected by the bin tax?

Everyone who owns a bin and has what the government deems to be the resources to pay the double tax.

Quoted from irishman_abroad
Some w@nker actually went around ripping up the tags of people who had paid. Now theyre just lucky I wasnt there, coz one of us was gonna get arrested

Nothing to do with us - I agree with your assessment; they were scum out looking to cause trouble - but the slogan stands with respect to the stopping of Bin Trucks - All or None. As for the stopping of a bin truck after it had picked up rubbish - did it occur to you that the people stopping it were those who had not had their rubbish collected? That would make a good deal more sense.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
Make snide comments all you will, and know that this is a fight that more than likely the Socialist Party and the people of Dublin and especially Fingal cannot win, despite the two hundred people that turned up to a Socialist Party march in Swords and the many more that turned up to the other marches but we are damned if we will allow an attack on the representatives of our party to go unanswered when clearly both the initial High Court order and the arrest were political gestures made by the establishment, a function as old as democracy itself.

It is fine to protest against the Higgins jailing provided such protesting is within the law, imo. Ultimately, of course, the thing that matters is votes, not marching.

irishman_abroad

I meant here in this discussion

Éomer of Rohan

Quoted from Skeptic One
It is fine to protest against the Higgins jailing provided such protesting is within the law, imo. Ultimately, of course, the thing that matters is votes, not marching

We protested against the Higgins jailing and and my demonstration anyway, it was within the law certainly. However, I fail to see why people are not accepting that the Courts are no place to fight a political battle and therefore that the ruling against the protestors who I insist on pointing out were not all or even mostly socialists is unfair and wrong.

SkepticOne

But Joe Higgins chose to block those trucks. He chose to bring his protest into the court system.

Éomer of Rohan

Joe blocked the trucks as the only possible effective measure of halting the bin tax and mobilising the working class against an attack on their rights and (some section) of their jobs. It was Fingal County Council and the delightful Mr Dolphin who took the steps to court.

Éomer of Rohan

....and more to the point, the action was taken specifically against Joe and Clare above all others simply because they already have a high political profile. Several pther protestors were jailed and the final proof that this was a political tactic of using the courts will come on Monday when we see the action the Garda don't take against the protests minus pertinent political and community figures when they come to collect the Bin trucks as no doubt they will. This, despite the fact that they have an order to arrest ANYONE interfering.

RainyDay

Originally posted by secret_squirrel
Yea so that means for the biggest part of 25 years we havent had to pay local taxes (and presumably national taxation increased at that time)

Check the facts, secret_squirrel. I'm old enough to have paid income tax rates of 56% in the mid/late 1980's. Rates have been gradually dropping to the current level of 42%.

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
what the government deems to be the resources to pay the double tax

Enough already of the 'double tax' myth. There is no double taxation. There is full tax relief available on waste charges.

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
for standing up for her beliefs and her constituents beliefs in the only feasible manner that was open to them.

So there was no option available to Joe/Clare other than stopping the bin collections? How about trying the approach of other democratic politicians and gathering support from a majority of the population for their ideas, or would this be out of the question?

Originally posted by Sparks
I'm not even sure that that's true in the first place [...]
so lumping another local tax onto the bill without tax relief on the income tax is simply out of the question.

Congrats, sparks - two factual errors in one post.
Income tax rates in Ireland are one of the lowest in Europe. Check out this PriceWaterhouseCoopers report

A single person earning €35,000 in Ireland brings home a higher net income than his counterparts in the UK, Germany, France and Belgium, after adjusting for the cost of living differentials between the various countries.
A single person earning €75,000 in Ireland is also generally better off in after-tax terms than his EU counterparts, with the exception of the UK. This Irish worker is currently bringing home 65% of his earnings after tax/social security (again adjusted for cost of living), which compares favourably with Germany (51%), France (61%), the Netherlands (60%) and Belgium (47%).

Also, note that tax relief is (and has always been available) on wast charge payments.
But don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant.

Sparks

Originally posted by RainyDay
Congrats, sparks - two factual errors in one post.

Last time I checked, saying that you weren't sure something was true didn't count as a factual error, but as critical thinking.

Income tax rates in Ireland are one of the lowest in Europe. Check out this PriceWaterhouseCoopers report

An Irish worker with this level of income is paying around 23 cents out of every euro that he earns in tax/social security. On the other end of the scale, a worker in Belgium who is earning the same salary is paying more than 40% of his earnings in taxes, although admittedly almost one-third of this is represented by social security charges, which deliver significantly greater benefits than the Irish equivalent.

*ahem*
In other words, we take home more, but they get better quality of life.
Plus, nowhere in there do I see reference to the fact that our inflation is twice the eurozone standard (the highest in the eurozone at present and well ahead of even the nearest competitor), our living costs are high enough to be silly, and morgages eat up massive amounts of take-home pay. Well. Not till the last paragraph, which reads:

Personal tax rates should not, however, be looked at in isolation - other factors such as cost and availability of housing, the level of indirect taxes (e.g. VAT, local service charges, wealth taxes etc.) must also be considered when making such comparisons, as these will impact on an individual's overall disposable income and purchasing power. Also, there are certain differences in the way in which countries fund for medical and pension benefits, which make it difficult to conduct an entirely accurate comparison.

In other words, you cannot take that report and use it to justify the bin charges by saying we have lower income taxes.

Also, note that tax relief is (and has always been available) on wast charge payments.
But don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant.

Care to reread my post? I said tax relief was available, but only 38 euros worth, and that pays for water rates. So you are being double-taxed.
Why is it that I can specifically state I'm trying to forestall an argument, state the response, and still it get's ignored and I wind up writing this kind of post anyway?

And now, where were those two factual errors in my original post again?

RainyDay

Hi Sparks - The two errors were;

1)

I'm not even sure that that's true in the first place

in relation to the comment "We are not heavily taxed compared to EU tax rates."
It is true.

2)

But we've already paid for it in income tax, so lumping another local tax onto the bill without tax relief on the income tax is simply out of the question.

There is tax relief on the waste charges.