[Article] Mussolini wasn't that bad, says Berlusconi

Turnip

Sigh. More evidence of the rehabilitation of fascism. No doubt, flaming Berlusconi for defending one of the 20th century's most stupid and twisted men will draw accusatory bleats of "political correctness" from the usual slightly unhinged and ideologically dodgy quarters. I thought it was just Gianfranco Fini and his party's venal supporters who were adorers of Mussolini, but apparently not. I haven't seen the article but will go check it out. I don't trust the Guardian that much.

John Hooper in Rome
Friday September 12, 2003
The Guardian

Even some of Silvio Berlusconi's own supporters and allies were last night squirming with embarrassment at their leader's latest extraordinary gaffe.

In an interview published yesterday by the Spectator, Italy's prime minister appeared to defend the actions of his country's fascist dictator, Benito Mussolini.

"Mussolini never killed anyone," the magazine quoted him saying.

"Mussolini sent people on holiday to confine them [banishment to small islands such as Ponza and Maddalena which are now plush resorts]."

Italy's fascist leader ordered the brutal 1935-36 occupation of Ethiopia, led Italy into the second world war and headed a Nazi puppet government which rounded up and dispatched Italian Jews to Hitler's concentration camps.

The Guardian

bloggs

Why get so hot and bothered? SB is a half-wit and i don't think many people take anything he says too seriously (as in giving what he says any credit)

Typedef

Originally posted by bloggs
Why get so hot and bothered? SB is a half-wit and i don't think many people take anything he says too seriously (as in giving what he says any credit)

Depends on what you mean by seriously.

Italy once had the unenviable record of having more governments since the end of the Second War, then years since the Second War.

Berlusconi's government seems to be extraordinarly long lasting, when set in this context, so how could one 'not' take the man seriously?

mike65

The Corinthian is much better placed to comment but I suspect there are many in Italy (proberly a mix of silly young kids and
nostalgic oldsters) who think il duce was "da man" and Berlusconi would have been tapping into that constituency with a view to the next election.

He'll proberly issue some sort of appology in the next day or two if pressurised but his target audience for those comments will remember Silvios words kindly...

Mike.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by mike65
The Corinthian is much better placed to comment but I suspect there are many in Italy (proberly a mix of silly young kids and nostalgic oldsters) who think il duce was "da man" and Berlusconi would have been tapping into that constituency with a view to the next election.

As I’ve said before, it’s not unusual in Italy to hear such comments and more that you’ll hear similar comments about Franco in Spain.

This is largely because Italians and Spaniards would not equate Mussolini’s or Franco’s ideologies and actions with those of Hitler’s Germany. All three were quite different and National Socialism was the only ideology that actively pursued the final solution, which historically is the principle (although not sole) reason for the demonisation of Hitler.

Thus without this demonisation, Italians are more likely to have a nostalgic view of this fundamentally flawed individual. The same with Spaniards view of Franco - or Russians view of Stalin, for that matter.

As for Gianfranco Fini, I doubt if he would be as big a fan of Mussolini as Pino Rauti, who’s Fiamma Tricolori party would represent the hard line neo-fascist element of Italian politics. Actually, José Maria Aznar would probably be quite fond on Franco too, while we’re on the subject.

The Beer Baron

pah!

Berlusconi just wishes he had the not-so-big-Big-Man's charisma.

Berlusconi and Anzar- yeah what a nice pair they are.

bonkey

Originally posted by Turnip
No doubt, flaming Berlusconi for defending one of the 20th century's most stupid and twisted men will draw accusatory bleats of "political correctness" from the usual slightly unhinged and ideologically dodgy quarters.

And who would you be referring to here????

jc

Turnip

Originally posted by bonkey
And who would you be referring to here????

jc

Fascists, neo-fascists, post-fascists and those who are traditionally passively (and sometimes aggressively) supportive of such regimes, opportunists, anti-democrats, the aristocracy. They exist in every country.

I've never heard of any Russians being nostalgiac about Stalin, especially not senior politicians. If any Russian is, then I'd imagine it's because Stalin (or rather his generals) saved Russia from nazi invasion. The fascist dictators destroyed democracy in their countries and in the case of Italy and Germany, they, with the assent of their peoples, waged unprovoked war on the world. That's nothing to be proud of in my book. Especially since they lost. Haha. :ninja:

"A good beating did not hurt anyone." - Il Duce in 1924. :rolleyes:

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Turnip
I've never heard of any Russians being nostalgiac about Stalin, especially not senior politicians.

In March 2003, outpourings of nostalgia were seen across Russia on the 50th anniversary of Stalin's death. The Public Opinion Foundation found that 36 percent of Russians viewed Stalin in a positive light, compared to the 29 percent who viewed him negatively. The Russian State Archives, and those of the Federal Security Service (FSB) and Federal Protection Service, prepared an exhibition on the Stalin era, including some personal effects and letters from Soviet citizens written on his death.

http://www.rferl.org/newsline/2003/08/5-NOT/not-130803.asp

They are also making people question the very validity of the democratic project. Many Russians feel nostalgic for the Soviet era and about a quarter of them hanker after what they call the most “glorious” era, when the USSR was feared and respected, during Stalin’s rule.

http://www.unesco.org/courier/1999_12/uk/dossier/txt06.htm

Putin has authorized the issuance of 500 special silver coins bearing Stalin's portrait and unveiled a plaque honoring Stalin for his military leadership.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=3332

The fascist dictators destroyed democracy in their countries.

As opposed to the communist dictators who fostered it.

waged unprovoked war on the world

Soviet Union invaded Lituania, Latvia, Estonia, Finland and Poland in 1940.

That's nothing to be proud of in my book. Especially since they lost. Haha. :ninja:

And so are you implying that if they’d won, then it wouldn’t have been as bad then?

mneylon

Berlusconi is not to be underestimated. You should remember that he has built a veritable empire and is ranked as one of the richest men in Europe.

Italian politics are impossible for non-Italians to fully comprehend. Unless you have had first-hand experience with Lega Nord (http://www.leganord.org/) or seen the Mussoline calendars on sale around Christmas (http://www.ilduce.net/calendario.htm), how could you understand?

It's a very common practice in this country to snipe at the politics of others, but it does not take a genius to realise that in many cases the comments, both at a national and a personal level are a reflection of the uninformed nature of those that insist on positing theories with which they have no practical experience.

Turnip

Originally posted by The Corinthian
http://www.rferl.org/newsline/2003/08/5-NOT/not-130803.asp

http://www.unesco.org/courier/1999_12/uk/dossier/txt06.htm

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=3332

Like I said, nostalgia is likely to be down to the fact that he was in charge when they were faced with total slaughter and enslavement.

As opposed to the communist dictators who fostered it.

Stalin took over a bad system (communism) and made it even worse, causing millions to die. The fascists took over a good system (liberal democracy) and caused millions to die. You're attempting to draw a comparison that should not be made really.

Soviet Union invaded Lituania, Latvia, Estonia, Finland and Poland in 1940.

I'm aware of that but they correctly anticipated an invasion from the west.

And so are you implying that if they’d won, then it wouldn’t have been as bad then?

The victors get to write history don't they? Who knows. If they'd won, most of us would probably have been wiped out one way or another.

There seems to be a lot of political polarisation going on these days. There's islamic fundamentalism which is dangerous as we've seen. There's the far left who are harmless, for the time being. And there's the resurgence of fascism which was never really wiped out properly, so we have otherwise perfectly sensible people going about defending Mussolini and so on. It's an interesting time and given the human propensity for conflict and destruction, I wouldn't be surprised if we see the outbreak of a damned big war in a few years. But I wonder who'll end up dangling from whose lamposts.

mneylon

Equating Mussolini to Hitler, whjich is what you seem to be doing is a common error. Haven't you read anything that the Corinthian posted?

bloggs

Ok by your logic Turnip, it's ok to praise Stalin but not Mussolini? Simply because he was a facist? First off all i think people whould be allowed to praise who they wish, as there is a thing called freedom of speech (no matter who much you disagree), frankly i think Stalin was worse (a few million were killed under his evil regime), while Mussolini was a scumbag you can't really compare the two.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Turnip
Like I said, nostalgia is likely to be down to the fact that he was in charge when they were faced with total slaughter and enslavement.

If you’d read the articles you would have noted that much of the reason for the nostalgia was harking back to when they were a superpower, as opposed to World War II. Nonetheless, whatever the reason this nostalgia exists, even with serious politicians.

Stalin took over a bad system (communism) and made it even worse, causing millions to die. The fascists took over a good system (liberal democracy) and caused millions to die. You're attempting to draw a comparison that should not be made really.

Stalin was part of that communism that you say he took over. He was intimately involved in the revolution that destroyed the nascent democracy that was forming in Russia at the time. Trying to distance him from that revolution is ridiculous so the comparison is quite valid.

Regardless, a comparison is valid as both were anti-democratic dictators.

And also the Fascists in Italy didn’t kill millions. Nobody credible has ever claimed that. Stalin did; some estimates put the toll as high as 20 million. Thus your comparison should not be made really.

I'm aware of that but they correctly anticipated an invasion from the west.

So Lituania, Latvia, Estonia, Finland and Poland were going to invade them, so the got in a pre-emptive strike first? :rolleyes:

The victors get to write history don't they?

So you are implying that if they’d won, then they wouldn’t have been as bad.

But I wonder who'll end up dangling from whose lamposts.

Hotheads who don’t know what they’re talking about, I expect.

The Beer Baron

http://www.ilduce.net/

Shouldn't it be ILDUCE.net?

Sorry about this but I just cannot bring myself to comment on Mussolini on anything but a comical level.

That anyone could have been suckered by him in the 1st place is one thing, that anyone would could still be praising the man is quite another.

I suppose I could mention a few positive things he done;
1. Creation of the Vatican state and
2. Curbing the Sicillian mafia. (or at least forcing them to leave the country and become America's problem)
3. Improved infrastructure.
4. Unwittingly ensured Nazi defeat in WWII even though they were, for the most part, on the same side.

(Of course you could also mention the positive things Hitler done but I think I'm destined to go down in a violent flameball were I to even finish this sentence.)

As it stands the Duce was a diminuative fat, bald pompous windbag- I can understand how people look up to this sort of person as an authority figure. Especially considering what a friend he was to capitalism, and Italian industry in particular. .
Sure he wasn't Hitler, and he never committed himself to Hitler's "Final Solution" yet he was responsible for atrocities in North Africa, in his own country, and weren't some of the bombers over Guernica Italian also- or am I wrong?

At any rate for a modern-day politician to activly praise such a moron is the most ludicrous concept imaginable- wasn't this the same man who considered bombing Loch Ness to destroy their monster hence devastating British morale?

Yeah- nice role model silvio.

The Beer Baron

ok ok ok, I'll admit it- so he was cool when we saw films about him in history class. He was the man, in the same way that MrT was the man or Jesse Ventura was the man.

bloggs

Originally posted by The Beer Baron
That anyone could have been suckered by him in the 1st place is one thing, that anyone would could still be praising the man is quite another.

I suppose I could mention a few positive things he done;
1. Creation of the Vatican state and
2. Curbing the Sicillian mafia. (or at least forcing them to leave the country and become America's problem)
3. Improved infrastructure.
4. Unwittingly ensured Nazi defeat in WWII even though they were, for the most part, on the same side.

Hmmm, would much rather him than Bertie :rolleyes:

The Beer Baron

Hmmm, would much rather him than Bertie

Hehehe- a boy there Bloggs!

La battaglia per inflazione è vinta!
Viva IL BERTIE!

I'll leave that for The Corinthian to correct- but don't blame me blame Google.

Turnip

I'm not all that interested in opnion polls. They can be phrased to mean whatever people what them to mean. Quite worthless.

Originally posted by The Corinthian
And also the Fascists in Italy didn’t kill millions.

Only through sheer incompetence. It's not a simple matter of bodycounts anyway. That's absurd.

So Lituania, Latvia, Estonia, Finland and Poland were going to invade them, so the got in a pre-emptive strike first? :rolleyes:

You don't know what you're talking about.

So you are implying that if they’d won, then they wouldn’t have been as bad.

Repeating yourself now eh? A sign of madness. Read my answer again slowly.

At least Stalin and Franco "won". What "good" did Mussolini do? At least Stalin and the communists made an enormous contribution to the defeat of the nazis. It's this fact that galls latterday apologists for fascism. The Americans should have pressed ahead and kicked him back to Russia but that's a different matter.

Hotheads who don’t know what they’re talking about, I expect.

Probably. And quite a few anti-democrats, churchmen, and aristocrats who always end up siding with clowns like Mussolini in a vain attempt to hold onto the privileges and power they're bred to believe they're entitled to. And then there's the opportunists who just hope to get a nice uniform, some lucrative contracts or some booty from some jews or anarchists or whoever's unfortunate enough to be labelled scapegoats and find themselves being "culled" somewhere.

And what's your opinion on Mussolini and Italian fascism in general? Has it all been misunderstood by us silly non-Italians who fail to see the merits of goosestepping, torture, mindless obedience, and invasions?

mneylon

Turnip: The quality of your posts are degrading at the speed of light.
You really don't know what you are talking about and are making the most ridiculous and unfounded comparisons.
Why don't you toddle off to a library and read up a little bit before you do yourself any more damage?

Turnip

Originally posted by blacknight
Turnip: The quality of your posts are degrading at the speed of light.
You really don't know what you are talking about and are making the most ridiculous and unfounded comparisons.
Why don't you toddle off to a library and read up a little bit before you do yourself any more damage?

Make a specific point or be silent. At least I'm not trying to make out fascism had something going for it.

mneylon

Originally posted by Turnip
Make a specific point or be silent. At least I'm not trying to make out fascism had something going for it.

That's part of your problem Turnip. You seem to think that your opinion, albeit twisted and highly misinformed, is the only possible view of reality.

Fascism and Hitler's actions are two different things. You seem to have great difficulty in making that distinction.

bloggs

Originally posted by Turnip

At least Stalin and Franco "won". What "good" did Mussolini do? At least Stalin and the communists made an enormous contribution to the defeat of the nazis. It's this fact that galls latterday apologists for fascism. The Americans should have pressed ahead and kicked him back to Russia but that's a different matter.

Sorry i don't understand what you are trying to get at here?

You are saying that facism is bad and wrong, but then you say that Franco 'at least won'? Can you please clarify? Do you think Mussolini was bad or facism in general?

In my opinion i don't have a problem with SB praising Mussolini, as the guy wasn't a mass murderer. To praise Stalin is much worse i think (20 million dead, that's worse than Hitler).

Turnip

Originally posted by blacknight
That's part of your problem Turnip. You seem to think that your opinion, albeit twisted and highly misinformed, is the only possible view of reality.

Fascism and Hitler's actions are two different things. You seem to have great difficulty in making that distinction.

This is somewhat similar to the communists who claim that the Soviet Union, North Korea and Pol Pots Cambodia weren't *real* communist states. No, according to some people, fascism is a perfectly good system that's just had a few problems where ever it's been tried so far. I'm a bit tired with Italian nationalists and miscellaneous imbeciles saying that just because Mussolini was a comically inept dictator and Italians were rubbish at war compared to the Germans, then he wasn't such a bad guy. He was a twat. All fascists are twats. The only reason I don't label *all* communists as twats is because they defeated the nazis. That's offensive to today's litter of fascists but so what.

mneylon

I have a strong feeling that you don't even know what you are talking about, but have been struck by some overwhelming desire to keep typing.

I would say that your argumentation was illogical, but the drivel you have posted so far would not even warrant such a label.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Turnip
I'm not all that interested in opnion polls. They can be phrased to mean whatever people what them to mean. Quite worthless.

Only the one’s you disagree with, I’ve noticed.

Only through sheer incompetence. It's not a simple matter of bodycounts anyway. That's absurd.

Shear incompetence? What evidence do you have that there was even an intention to kill millions? And while we’re discussing the killing of millions and body counts, you were the one who introduced the term, so it would be disingenuous to deny that now.

You don't know what you're talking about.

Prove that. You’ve postulated a ridiculous assertion and I’ve challenged it. Now back up what you were saying and stop trying to weasel out of it with an irrelevant put-down.

Repeating yourself now eh? A sign of madness. Read my answer again slowly.

And you read my answer again slowly - obviously by willing, this makes either Franco or Stalin ‘less bad’ in your eyes. Hence had Hitler won the war, which would make him ‘less bad’ in your eyes, by the same logic. And that logic speaks for itself,

Probably. And quite a few anti-democrats, churchmen, and aristocrats who always end up siding with clowns like Mussolini in a vain attempt to hold onto the privileges and power they're bred to believe they're entitled to. And then there's the opportunists who just hope to get a nice uniform, some lucrative contracts or some booty from some jews or anarchists or whoever's unfortunate enough to be labelled scapegoats and find themselves being "culled" somewhere.

Get off the soapbox.

And what's your opinion on Mussolini and Italian fascism in general? Has it all been misunderstood by us silly non-Italians who fail to see the merits of goosestepping, torture, mindless obedience, and invasions?

More interested in personal attacks again, I see. What do you care what my opinion is? It’s pretty obvious you care for no one’s option other than your own.

I expect by your definition that probably makes you a fascist...

Turnip

Originally posted by bloggs
You are saying that facism is bad and wrong, but then you say that Franco 'at least won'? Can you please clarify? Do you think Mussolini was bad or facism in general?

A million were killed in the Spanish civil war which was largely but not exclusively Franco's fault. But to his credit, Franco stayed out of ww2 and lived to a ripe old age unlike Mussolini and Hitler who came to deservedly sticky ends.

In my opinion i don't have a problem with SB praising Mussolini, as the guy wasn't a mass murderer. To praise Stalin is much worse i think (20 million dead, that's worse than Hitler).

That's childish thinking I'm afraid. What do you think would have happened if the nazis had beaten Russia in 1941?

mneylon

Originally posted by Turnip

That's childish thinking I'm afraid. What do you think would have happened if the nazis had beaten Russia in 1941? [/B]

Considering some of the rubbish that you have posted, how can you possibly refer to anybody else's opinions as 'childish'?
You are the one who insists on taking the illogical stance and seems to have it in for Mussolini. Yet now you are defending Franco?
Does the word 'consistency' mean anything to you?

Turnip

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Hence had Hitler won the war, which would make him ‘less bad’ in your eyes, by the same logic. And that logic speaks for itself,

I've already said that if Hitler had won the war, it's quite likely that we would be among fascism's victims, (not you obviously. IMO, based on your previous posts, you belong to the demographic that is right at home in a dictatorship, fascist or otherwise), and there would be none of this doubting the merits of fascism. Doubters would be "culled" without question.

More interested in personal attacks again, I see.

Just responding in kind.

What do you care what my opinion is? It’s pretty obvious you care for no one’s option other than your own.

LOL I didn't seriously you expect you to explain your real political philosophy since I suspect most people would be appalled by it and one must not sully one's image must one? But it was worth a try. You've been quite happy to label me (and others) as being this that and the other, fair comment imo, but why do you object to being subjected to the same treatment?

bonkey

Originally posted by Turnip
No, according to some people, fascism is a perfectly good system that's just had a few problems where ever it's been tried so far.

One could say exactly the same about democracy.

I'm a bit tired with Italian nationalists and miscellaneous imbeciles saying that just because Mussolini was a comically inept dictator and Italians were rubbish at war compared to the Germans, then he wasn't such a bad guy.

And I'm a bit tired of you making continuing with the insulting innuendo despite warning you in another thread to stop with it.

Now I'm giving you your last warning. If you cannot either stop with the insults, or make it explicitly clear that your continuous barrage of insults are not aimed at posters here, I will have to consider that they are targetted at posters here, in light of the complaints I've received (and comments in these threads in general) and my own perception of whats going on.

At that point, I will have no option but to consult the other mods, and decide what action is appropriate.

Turnip

Ok, since this is getting boring, I give in. Fascism is excellent. Berlusconi is absolutely right about Mussolini. How's that?

bloggs

Originally posted by Turnip
Ok, since this is getting boring, I give in. Fascism is excellent. Berlusconi is absolutely right about Mussolini. How's that?

hmmmmmm

The Beer Baron

...I went doooown doooown dooooownn and the flaaaaaames went higher!

:rolleyes:

swiss

Yet another thread turns into a flamewar courtesy of the animosity between Turnip and The Corinthian.

Here is a suggestion. Instead of taking issue with somebody personally, why not try to instead debunk their assertions with logic, if you feel that those assertions are flawed. I think people need to remember that this forum is not about having arguments. It is about informed debate, with an open mind and a respect to alternative viewpoints (unless you find those viewpoints offensive).

Turnip, I don't blame you for your dislike of Fascism as an ideology, but to dismiss Mussolini as a diminuitive fascist is to ignore that some people look up to him for the laudable ideals of strong leadership and decisive action, something which may have been subsequently lacking in Italian politics, given that governments do not appear to have historically long track records after WWII.

Despite this, you've decided that your opinion must be right, and everyone else is "wrong". Although this is your priviledge, you have done this with remarkable condescension towards other posters, who have subsequently retaliated against this kind of posting. I don't care what peoples views are, showing this kind of patronising behaviour simply isn't on.

Secondly, despite numerous warnings about your behaviour to The Corinthian, you continually attack him. The fact that you are not naming him directly does not wash in these cases. We all know the person to whom you are referring, and calling labelling someone an "upper class twit apologist for fascism" given your views on this board, can only be directed to that one person . In the past, bonkey and/or gandalf have given you these warnings. Now, I am banning you, for a one week period.

When and if you decide to post again, I want you to take these points on boards. I am not trying to change your views, but you will post in a civil manner, or not at all.