thread locked in humour...

BEAT · 10-09-2003 12:53am #1

The thread starter I am copying here was locked because it didnt belong in humour, I think it should have been moved here, I found it rather funny, but I do think everyone has some interesting comments to make on the subject...posted originally by vader:

What makes an American an American
Americans stand out in the world as being the best. They're leaders of the free world, protectors of the west and all round good guys. So what have you to do to become one?

1) Have at least 4 flags -- one for inside your house, outside your house, on your car and one for special occassions. Anyone with less that 4 flags is a lefty spy, be warned.

2) Use cool words like guesstamate, pinko, islamofacist, commynazi to make your intelligence known. If this doesnt work try mispronouncing "data"

3) Support the president, be sure to say you voted for him, even if you didnt vote(dont worry nobody else did either)

4) Support the arts. Watch fine shows like "when building collapse" and "when things go boom"

5) Explain to locals when you go on hollidays how much happier they would be if they were an american

6) Explain any concerns foreigners might have about your foreign policy with "Your just jealous of our power", "Your an anti-american" or "Shut up or I'll squish you!"

7) Accept what the government tell you are official truths. They wouldn't lie to you, their the leaders of the free world!

8) Order freedom fries in McDonalds & CO. The french are a bunch of ingrateful wine-guzzling, cheese eating surrender monkeys! You think they'd thank us for savind them in WW1 & WW2 and in their war of independance!

9) Be democratic. Watch Fox news and read tabloids and then decide if you want to support Bush 100% or 51%

10) Keep telling yourself your free and equal. If anyone tells you Bush stole the election or that opression in America has simply taken on new more subtle forms. Ignore them and write a letter to your congressman asking for their arrest or if their a foreigner to invade their country. If you think we're opressive now, wait till we come and occupy your country!!

BEAT · 10-09-2003 1:00am

We are not here to American/America bash, but list our comments on what we feel the problem really is with the country and its people...
would this be best moved to humanities? or can we leave it here monty?

I feel American's (as kharn put it and I have said many times before) need to realise that they are not the only people, the Greater people, or the only country, or the Greater country. It's ridiculous...the rest of the world is aware of the rest of the world. American's/America are aware that they exist, hollywood is great, and things occassionally happen in other countries because they see a stroy or two on cnn, but they couldnt show you on a map where the story took place, or even pronounce it.
Most of you are aware that I am In America...so the fact that I am bringing this up may be a shock for a few. It's one, well it IS the reason I moved to Ireland. American's think they know it all and refuse to accpet the opinion of another who is kets say, different than they are.....foreign.

I will save some of my ranting for replies on this thread as I am sure there will be plenty if it isnt locked right away

give it a chance monty, really

skittishkitten · 10-09-2003 2:10am

OOPs ! There it goes again. You were doing OK until you climbed on top of the Political "Soapbox" ........... I suggest that unless this thread can stick to the jokes that it be move to politics since it's going to be what some will hope to be no doubt a political debate.

Personally I feel it's unfair that anyone would judge a country full of people by the people in power or by a select few. I AM American , I know there are other countries , and that America is NOT all righteous , all knowing , all powerful . For ANYONE to lump all of one country into a group and declare them ALL one way because of the actions of a few makes that person as bad as those that they are accusing.

Spacedog · 10-09-2003 3:54am

...nevermind

dod · 10-09-2003 6:29am

Whilst I do appreciate that the facility to lock threads for various reasons is desirable and neccessary, and that such facility is neccessarily applied subjectively, it would seem to me that there is a little "trigger-happiness" on the part of some Mods when it comes to locking what would appear to me to be relatively innocuous threads.

bloggs · 10-09-2003 1:39pm

shouldn't this be in politics?

Raz · 10-09-2003 1:58pm

Originally posted by BEAT
We are not here to American/America bash,
.
.
.
.
.
American's/America are aware that they exist, hollywood is great, and things occassionally happen in other countries because they see a stroy or two on cnn, but they couldnt show you on a map where the story took place, or even pronounce it.

Does anyone else see a contradiction here

Basically I think the stereotype would be better applied to New Yorkers than to the country at large. Maybe some of the other cities are as ignorant of the rest of the world but everytime I hear the idea I think of people locked in their own little world walking along the streets of a big city.
And I do believe they are ignorant of the world around them. But then there are so many people there that it would be as easy to run into regular people who don't know anything as it would be to run into those educated in world affairs.

BEAT · 10-09-2003 10:16pm

Originally posted by skittishkitten
Personally I feel it's unfair that anyone would judge a country . For ANYONE to lump all of one country into a group and declare them ALL one way because of the actions of a few makes that person as bad as those that they are accusing.

Thanks for the reply, Perhaps I should make myself more clear (Beat clears throat)
The fact of the matter here is that in general, to describe America/Americans you do have to lump them all together...I cant describe each and every person for you, all you need to know is that the Majority of Americans do fall into the stereotype I have provided. It is a plain fact and I defy you to prove otherwise.
Only an American could not see what the rest of the world plainly does. Fortunatly enough I am an educated American who has lived not only in other states but in other countries. I have seen for my self the ways America is portrayed and the the America IS.

Like I said before I found this topic interesting and do not mind if it is moved to a more proper forum, that is up to Monty to decide. I would however, like to see some more opinions on the matter.

MiCr0 · 11-09-2003 7:28am

i think those points could apply to a large amount of irish/english people too.

look @ the sales of the tabloid papers
look @ the stuff they show on sky|one - some one must watch it
look @ the amount people complain about "foreign food" and the fact that no one in spain speaks english....

to say that this is uniquely american is very naive

ColinM · 11-09-2003 8:55am

I did see this in the humour forum, but I didn't post because it didn't seem appropriate in the humour forum to get into a debate about the perceived insularity, patriotism, collective intelligence or whatever of Americans.

I've always found that stereotypes exist because they are based on truths. There is the stereotype of the white-trash American, who eats nothing but Big-Macs, watches nothing on TV but but shows that follow the format of "When [something] Attacks" or "World's Scariest [something]", who thinks that Ireland is a State somewhere in the midwest, and who has no concept of irony.

It's certain that you wouldn't have to go too far to meet an American like this, but only in the same way as you wouldn't have to go too far to meet a drunkard Irishman with bad teeth and even worse personal hygeine who goes to the pub wearing his mucky wellies and refuses to go home at closing time.

Many Irish and English people love to think that they are intellectually superior to Americans because they think they "get" irony, and that somehow all Americans are so stupid that not one of them could understand it. What most of them don't realise is that they themselves are often not as bright as they'd like to think they are.

I've met many Americans who could not only run intellectual rings around most Irish and English people, but who also have a perfectly good understanding of the concept of irony.

America as a nation is quite insular, but it's obvious why this is the case, and totally understandable. For a start, it's massive. Let's say that roughly 75% of Americans don't own a passport. That's quite understandable when you look at how vast the country is. You could spend a whole lifetime exploring it.

I also wonder why every Irish person expects every American to be able to pick out Ireland on a map of the world. Exactly what do we do here that makes even the slightest difference to the average American's daily life? It could be considered quite arrogant for us to expect them to know where Ireland is. I wonder could these same people who expect the location of their ineffectual country to be known by every American pick out every country in Eastern Europe on an unmarked map?

The fact is, America doesn't need us, or any other country in the world for that matter either. For the most part, America is a self-sufficient nation. Leaving aside the matter of oil, if the rest of the world ceased to exist tomorrow, it really wouldn't have any affect on the average American citizen. So why should it concern them where we are located?

As for American patriotism, I have often found it strange that this is so entrenched that it is in effect, the national religion. I have guessed though, that this phenomenon is somehow by design, as a way of binding the many disparate cultures that have gone into the American "melting-pot".

While there may be some kind of truth to these "jokes" about Americans, I would say it is the same kind of truth that you might find in a joke portraying the Irish as drunken muck-savages. While there may be truth to it, it's still a generalisation, so not everybody is going to be represented fairly.

BEAT · 11-09-2003 10:56pm

BEFORE I BEGIN I MUST MAKE AN ANNOUNCEMENT: (BEAT SAYS IN MEGAPHONE) AHEM, THIS THREAD IS ABOUT AMERICA/AMERICANS SO NATURALLY WE WILL BE TALKING ABOUT AMERICA/AMERINCANS HERE. THANK YOU.

I thought by the replies perhaps someone thought the subject was about "people' in general. Ofcourse I am perfectly aware that you find all sorts of people in every walk of life around the world, and while I feel America/Americans have thier short-comings I do understand that there are other cultures/countries with the same inadequcies.
This is however, about America/Americans.
We can start a thread on western european people/countires as well if you'd prefer

I do appreciate the comments from ColinM, I agree with you on almost every point, very to the point and apparently able to produce an intelligent rebuttle

Thank you, I wish to see more comments of the like.

One of my problems with America is the knowledge we have of world history. We are taught year after year of US History, and a chapter or two is thrown in on world history...the rest we knowis from movies, stories and such. The fact that most people wouldnt take it upon themselves to learn about the rest of the world in which they live staggers me. It is quite disgusting to me that when ever I would see an American tourist in Ireland all they would do is put on a fake accent and ask where the Leprechauns were...ughh. They made me ashamed to be American. Bless them though, I felt sorry for them after I realised everyone laughs at them for saying such silly things. Ahh well, just another one of my opinions to tear apart I suppose

athena 2000 · 12-09-2003 5:53am

I appreciate your measured comments ColinM. It's interesting to read your thoughts. I'd have to agree with 95% of your statements.

Americans are insular, partly by geographical makeup, and, in my opinion, because a great number of us are not required to become fluent in a second language to achieve a high school diploma and continue on with a university education. This would expose us to a wider range of cultures and expand our world view, at least in a general sense! We also can't travel and cover as many different countries and cultures within the space of less than 500 miles the way many people in Europe can. I envy that ability. Lack of exposure to a wider world and continued encouragement to learn about that world through education is the primary problem. It also doesn't help that it costs amazing amounts of money just to travel to Europe from the USA and stay for a while. (Don't we have a forum on "Rip-Off Ireland"?) We are mostly working middle class citizens where travel to far away places for many is the dream of a lifetime.

Our viewpoints on world affairs are tragically colored by our own news media which basically gives bare highlights on anything of importance happening in the world which doesn't concern our political and trade interests. If international news items are mentioned, I have yet to see any true in-depth coverage and analysis apart from National Public Radio (NPR) and Public Broadcasting System (PBS) programming. Yes, people watch CNN and Fox News, but that is only available by subscription through venues like local cable or dish satellite. Everyone can't afford an extra $30 to $80+ bill per month to access better (or at least more varied) international news and commentary that might be found with it.

We are better informed by print journalism in the US than any other media available except surfing the internet That's how I and many of my friends get the news. Many times what I read online doesn't hit the newspapers or even television news until 24 to 48 hours later. Even within our own borders this is true. We really are a huge nation. I can't tell you what's happening of importance in Boston, Massachusetts today because I haven't taken the time to go read about it. It's not that I'm not interested or don't care. But I have to search it out. I look for international news in the same way because it interests me. I want to know what's happening in the world and also how the USA fits into the bigger picture. (Yes, my own ethnocentric and selfish desire to see how my country acts upon the world stage.) It's sad not everyone in the US is interested in world affairs, but it takes time and effort to be "other" oriented. No one is handing it to us on a plate at the moment.

Beat, you may be appalled at the lack of interest in the world on the part of many Americans, but you have admittedly been exposed to other cultures and lived in other countries. You've had the uncommon advantage of benefiting and learning from that exposure and I believe you may not even know how NOT to have a wider world view! So think about bestowing a little mercy on the Americans who haven't had the advantages you've possessed.

To throw an alternate light on insularity both geographical and cultural, I've had some exposure to the communist Chinese business environment, and if you want to learn about a huge country where the ethnocentricity is staggering, just study their viewpoints. Think of the size of their population as well. Their politics and laws are authoritarian (we haven't experienced the "nanny-state" yet in comparison), and though I think they are some of the most fascinating people on earth - they can be as "self" oriented as any American could ever be. In fact, we are cultural pipsqueaks compared to them. It is interesting to contrast and compare.

Now if any one really wants to know about the national 'religion' of the USA...it definitely isn't patriotism.
It's American football!

BTW I watched a program tonight (Sept. 11) produced in England by Michael Atwell Productions for Channel 5 - it was about buildings collapsing. It definitely wasn't about art.
(see first post, item #4)

BEAT · 12-09-2003 10:31pm

Thanks very much for that Athena, I appreciate everything you had to say.
You are right, being that I am fortunate enough to have an education and to have traveled and had experiences I do forget that the average American is only ignorant because they have no choice. (enter sarcasm) I do agree with you, dont get me wrong, but here is another point.
I do not come from money, my family is middle class. I am only educated because I busted my ass to be, I am only well traveled because I sacraficed to be. I am only American becasue it was no choice of mine, lol...ok a little more sarcasm

I realise that just becasue I wanted to better myself and do the things I have done and do , that doesnt mean everyone else has to or wants to. Everyone goes about thier life as they so choose, and I respect that. What I do not respect is that America is behind the rest of the world in education, ahead in crime and no one seems to care so it keeps getting worse. Americans put a man Like Bush in office, and then Elected his son 8 years later after they saw what the Father did. It serves America right for the economic situation we are in for electing the Bush knowing full well he would use all of our funds on war not needed and then put us into further debt to continue this "war" that really should have come to an end before it started. It just doesnt make any sense to me that anyone would want to shout, I am proud to be an American...most of them shouting with 2 front teeth missing and wearing a ripped flannel shirt on CNN...oh how I shake my head when this is how America wants to represent itself to the rest of the world.

I am all for the bettering of the Nation, making it a place I am proud to call home... Unfortunatley this wont happen in my lifetime, and the ways things are going it may never happen.

Everything you said was very well put and you seem to be an Intelligent person, I appreciate that. I wonder though..only 2 posts...could you be someone in disguise...? / beat puts finger to chin and ponders... just a thought

Sorry for any typos I am typing in a rush and havnt a chance to re-read.

Cheers!:cool:

athena 2000 · 13-09-2003 8:08am

BEAT, I don’t get you wrong at all. I see your point, but I have some comments…

Everyone has a choice to remain ignorant or not. Even though I defended the average American’s public education to a limited extent, and kvetched about our televised news media, I’m always amazed at people that won’t expand their knowledge of the world, other cultures, and current events. I think learning is a life-long adventure.

It’s great you’ve got the drive and ambition to aspire for more than others do. To be a member of a free society (tough luck, you were born in to that, lol!) and receive its benefits and exploit your opportunities through discipline, hard work and sacrifice is super. But I’ll bet you had someone inspire or encourage you too. Who was it?

Isn’t the truth really that we’re a little embarrassed to be Americans right now? That we DO want to be respected as a people, we do want our educational system to be one of the best, and we do want our foreign policy to reflect that the USA is interested in the good (not just goods) of other nations as much as our own? Is that idealistic? Why yes, how typically “American” of us! Do we care about our crime rate and our politics and how things are being run right now? Absolutely, just read The New York Times online (for free) and other papers and there is no way you can say we don’t care.

I think that Europeans are just as unlikely to be truly informed about our domestic public debates and cares as Americans are unlikely to be truly informed about the daily cares and politics of Europeans. One fallacy that I see repeated over and over in the European media is that over 50% of Americans believe there is a link between Al Quada and Saddam Hussein. Well someone get me the reality stick so I can beat some reporters with it. A majority of us do not believe that because they cannot prove it, and we are dealing with the fact that there were no WMD in Iraq as a justifiable reason to start an invasion – but funny how some of our news media skirt the debate about that topic. Don’t fall into the seductive and lazy trap of being a cynic because things aren’t going well.

To an extent, if people don’t vote, they can’t complain. Did you vote? No one knew G.W. Bush would allocate funds for a war before or even after he was sworn into office. I think you probably didn’t type out what was in your head and skipped something. Our economic woes had started making an appearance by the end of 1999 and jumped in our faces by 2000. Bush hasn’t helped, true, but it doesn’t “serve us right” to have economic woes because he was elected.

<<It just doesnt make any sense to me that anyone would want to shout, I am proud to be an American...most of them shouting with 2 front teeth missing and wearing a ripped flannel shirt on CNN...oh how I shake my head when this is how America wants to represent itself to the rest of the world.>>

Okay, I get your drift, but come on, missing teeth and ripped flannel shirts? Beat, that one made me laugh! We are not all a bunch of aggies (our version of culchies). The frustration of looking at CNN has sent you around the bend. LOL! CNN is now an international news source with outposts worldwide. I think it’s possible they might pander to what they think the international audience views Americans as being. Oops, was that cynical? Well I shake my head too, because it’s hard to get rid of preconceived ideas of what Americans are like.

One person can make a difference in shaping a better nation.
Anything could happen in your lifetime. Circumstances change as quickly as the weather. The real issue is this - are you willing to participate and do what you see as your part to make things better? You know about working hard and sacrifice, maybe you need to return and get involved.

Thanks for the compliment. I am new to this forum and no, I’m not in disguise - even my avatar looks a little like me. But I must get rid of her – I realized today she has on an Alice band. Yikes!

Typos are forgiven only once.

chill · 13-09-2003 3:35pm

While I endorse much of the stuff written by Athena et al I have to point out a couple of things. And I do so as a friend of the US, a supporter of the US but a vehement opposer of the far right in the US.

While the attitudes documented here with humour may be accurate - they do not not appy to all Americans, not even to most Americans.

We are in a period where the far right have grabbed control of the administration and of the media. This is partly because of their superior activism over the democratic base in the US - sadly moderates are never as activist as extremists and don't bother to vote as numerously. And the other reason is of course the recent event in New York, the effect of which is understandable, if not welcome.

There is a huge swathe of great American people who are not nationalists and not military bombasts.

And while many of the other flaws do indeed apply to the vast majority of Americans we in Europe are equally flawed in different ways.

BEAT · 14-09-2003 3:30am

Originally posted by athena 2000
But I’ll bet you had someone inspire or encourage you too. Who was it?

****Honestly, no one. I am unlike anyone in my family and the same goes for my friends...I am the first really to do things I have done and to carry myself the way I do...I wouldnt normally say this but for example purposes..I am an inspiration to my family and friends as they have told me. Some of them love it because they say they can live vicariously through me ***

To an extent, if people don’t vote, they can’t complain. Did you vote?

***Yes I did vote, I always have, I no I did not vote for George Bush, I am not republican.***

No one knew G.W. Bush would allocate funds for a war before or even after he was sworn into office.
I think you probably didn’t type out what was in your head and skipped something.

***Yes I did know this would happen before he was voted in, infact I held a meeting at my college speaking about it and as if in a vision I predicted everything that has happened, I may not be a political genious but i know a tragedy when I see one coming***

Well I shake my head too, because it’s hard to get rid of preconceived ideas of what Americans are like.

***Especialy when most of them are correct.***

The real issue is this - are you willing to participate and do what you see as your part to make things better? You know about working hard and sacrifice, maybe you need to return and get involved.

***I am involved as much as I can be, I take every oppurtunity I can to speak to people, but I am no politican or celebrity so I am afraid that I will not reach the people that need to be reached, its reality.***

Thanks for the compliment. I am new to this forum and no, I’m not in disguise - even my avatar looks a little like me.

***No Prob., I appreciate everything you have to say, you are well informed and seemingly intelligent. I look forward to your comments in the future on other subjects as well.
Your avatar looks a little like me too ...without the headband, lol

Typos are forgiven only once.

***As are muppets.

athena 2000 · 14-09-2003 8:00pm

BEAT,

Thanks for your responses to my enquiring mind...now we know you're a voting man with prophetic insight. I didn't vote for Bush either. Even if you think you're not a politician, time could reveal otherwise - you don't have to be "the Terminator" to run for city council someday!

Okay, I'm going to go get rid of my avatar with the headband now before I continue to look like a muppet who can spell.

And thanks for the conversation and opinions.

and to Chill...

<<There is a huge swathe of great American people who are not nationalists and not military bombasts.>>

Thanks for noticing. The neoconservative leaders are the most disturbing set of people to raise their heads in many years. But at least we know they're there and can do something about it. Sections of Patriot Act II are getting blasted, and rightly so.

For fun (or a few scares), visit http://www.politicalcompass.org/
and take the quiz.

Havelock · 15-09-2003 10:14am

Hum... my test results:
Economic Left/Right: -6.38
Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.23

Puts me on par with Gandi, in regards my views, but I'm a single party, one leader state kinda guy. Anyway. Nice to see good inteligent conversation being generated by this appaling opening post.

BEAT · 16-09-2003 12:13am

Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -3.88
Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.87

I am in the same position as pope john paul is on the map...with the tiny bit more to the left..just a dot worth

athena 2000 · 16-09-2003 12:50am

I landed in the Mandela and Ghandi quadrant, but very close to Jean Chretien. Which makes me nervous.

Economic Left/Right: -3.26
Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.25

Guys, since the thread started in Humour, then moved to Humanities, is it time to send it to Politics? Here's a little political humour to see if we can make it go full circle....

Guide to Ideologies

FEUDALISM
You have two cows. Your lord takes some of the milk.

PURE SOCIALISM
You have two cows. The government takes them and puts them in a barn with everyone else's cows. You have to take care of all of the cows. The government gives you as much milk as you need.

FASCISM
You have two cows. The government takes both, hires you to take care of them and sells you the milk.

DICTATORSHIP
You have two cows. The government takes both and shoots you.

REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY
You have two cows. Your neighbors pick someone to tell you who gets the milk.

CAPITALISM
You have two cows. You sell one and buy a bull.

ENVIRONMENTALISM
You have two cows. The government bans you from milking or killing them.

FEMINISM
You have two cows. They get married and adopt a veal calf.

TOTALITARIANISM
You have two cows. The government takes them and denies they ever existed. Milk is banned.

POLITICAL CORRECTNESS
You are associated with (the concept of "ownership" is a symbol of the phallo-centric, war-mongering, intolerant past) two differently aged (but no less valuable to society) bovines of non-specified gender.

COUNTER CULTURE
Wow, dude, there's like...these two cows, man. You got to have some of this milk.

SURREALISM
You have two giraffes. THe government requires you to take harmonica lessons.

monument · 22-09-2003 12:40am

Some of the main things currently wrong with the U.S. are also wrong with Ireland and the UK. However at least most people in Ireland and the UK will still give out about things like war (even at the time of such) when their govermant is acting or aiding in such wars.

Originally posted by athena 2000
I landed in the Mandela and Ghandi quadrant,

I'm right in the middle of the two of them.

----

When an ideology is put to a government system it is normal all two simplified (I.e. Ireland would be called a representative democracy system, but in my view it is more like a - corrupt pretend/partial representative democracy and partially capitalist system which is more often then not effected by non-representative groups [I could go on]). A morally good dictatorship would work better (for its people as a whole) then a number of so called “representative democracy”

[start/Ranting a little more of point] Two things which would make any government better would be... [1.] Remove all need for money from political parities – equal amount of advertising etc.. [2.] Make government more open, along the line of freedom of information, - if a government was like a shop with a large window and not much room to hide it would make it hard for corruption, stupidness, etc… . Some secrecy is needed but in most cases if something has to be hidden for a long time or forever there’s most likely something wrong. [Ranting a little more of point/end]

chill · 22-09-2003 2:52pm

Originally posted by athena 2000
For fun (or a few scares), visit http://www.politicalcompass.org/
and take the quiz.

Not meaning to be too serious about it, what's really scary is how seriously people respond to something like this.
Questionaires like this are so easy to manipulate and skew to produce whatever results the designer wants, with a bit of psychological expertise.
I read the questions and was fascinated by the bizarre choices and the amazing ability of the designers to place famous people in the compass without ever getting them to complete the Q's. It may seem like a reasonable and balanced project is far from it imho.

chill · 22-09-2003 2:59pm

Originally posted by monument
Some of the main things currently wrong with the U.S. are also wrong with Ireland and the UK. However at least most people in Ireland and the UK will still give out about things like war (even at the time of such) when their govermant is acting or aiding in such wars.

Your implcation is that there was/is no such reaction in the US. Thhis is simply not true. All during the war process and since there has been a large vocal minority voicing their disapproval.
The problem is that the administration has had the cooperation of the elite right wing media and they managed to intimidate and cow many of the voices in the mainstream media too.
We here are not immune to this kind of manipulation and sholuldn't get carried away with feeling too superior.

Thankfully we can feel 'some' comfort in having a generally better and more representative democratic system here in Ireland and the UK, and we are more resistant to extreme views, with far less corruption than most western nations.

monument · 22-09-2003 5:21pm

"Your implcation is that there was/is no such reaction in the US. Thhis is simply not true. All during the war process and since there has been a large vocal minority voicing their disapproval."

My implication is that it was a minority in the U.S., but not here. Also, apparently, most people in the U.S. did not really care about their government lying about the reasons they were going to war, in the UK a lot more do.

“The problem is that the administration has had the cooperation of the elite right wing media and they managed to intimidate and cow many of the voices in the mainstream media too.
We here are not immune to this kind of manipulation and sholuldn't get carried away with feeling too superior.”

In general the media in the U.S. is a huge part of their problem. However it is not the main reason they do not give out about war once it has started; it is this sad thing called patriotism. In the past the only thing that has really over turned U.S. patriotism is the army coming home in body bags.

“Thankfully we can feel 'some' comfort in having a generally better and more representative democratic system here in Ireland and the UK, and we are more resistant to extreme views, with far less corruption than most western nations.”

BTW - This is not the humour board! With western nations I’m sure we’d be just behind the U.S. on the list.

athena 2000 · 22-09-2003 9:07pm

Originally posted by chill
Not meaning to be too serious about it, what's really scary is how seriously people respond to something like this.

It seems some people have taken it quite seriously - search the site and read the quotes from various writers and publications/media outlets. (If they can be counted to be actual commentary and not fiction.)

I read the questions and was fascinated by the bizarre choices and the amazing ability of the designers to place famous people in the compass without ever getting them to complete the Q's. It may seem like a reasonable and balanced project is far from it imho.

Since there isn't an "About Us" page with more complete information about their organization and an explanation of the criteria (sp?) used to place the people on the grid, I have to agree with you. The Iconochasms quiz was interesting, though.

monument · 22-09-2003 11:07pm

Originally posted by chill
I read the questions and was fascinated by the bizarre choices

from the site...

"Some of the questions are slanted

All of them are slanted ! It's important to understand that this isn't a survey, and these aren't questions - they're propositions. Some are extreme, some are more moderate. That's how we can show you whether you lean towards extremism or moderation on the Compass."

Originally posted by chill
the amazing ability of the designers to place famous people in the compass without ever getting them to complete the Q's. It may seem like a reasonable and balanced project is far from it imho.

The views of historic and current political leader are well known.

Why is it far from a "reasonable and balanced project"? (The “reading list” gives examples from all sides.)

Maybe the creator(s) have done it in a balanced way but want to keep his/her/their name(s) and views out of it?

chill · 23-09-2003 10:20am

Originally posted by monument
Also, apparently, most people in the U.S. did not really care about their government lying about the reasons they were going to war, in the UK a lot more do.

I take it 'here' is Ireland.
It is easy for people 'here' to be opposed considering it isn't we that have to fight the war or suffer the casualties of war. As far as the UK is concerned the role of the anti Gov media has been out of proportion to the evidence they have been able to unearth. Thankfully enough people gave a damn about the plight of the Iraqi people to do something about it, unlike people here. But that's another subject on another forum.

In general the media in the U.S. is a huge part of their problem. However it is not the main reason they do not give out about war once it has started; it is this sad thing called patriotism.

What is so damaging is not patriotism, it is when Patriotism turns to Nationalism, which is what has happend in much of US society. This is what is damaging the US so much.

This is not the humour board! With western nations I’m sure we’d be just behind the U.S. on the list.

Not true. We have a far superior system imho.

chill · 23-09-2003 10:27am

Originally posted by monument
from the site...

"Some of the questions are slanted

All of them are slanted ! It's important to understand that this isn't a survey, and these aren't questions - they're propositions. Some are extreme, some are more moderate. That's how we can show you whether you lean towards extremism or moderation on the Compass."

I don't accept that. A slanted serious of propositions do not produce an accurate or fair representation of a person's views. They are slanted in such an obviously distorted way that is clearly preplanned to produce a specific kind of result.

The views of historic and current political leader are well known.

I doubt it. Their views on many of the specific questions of morality and economics are only guessable.

Maybe the creator(s) have done it in a balanced way but want to keep his/her/their name(s) and views out of it?

It's probably the usual stuff from the right wing in he US who are expert and habitual in presenting themselves in moderate clothes while pushing an ultra right wing agenda. Not that I'm a conspiracy nutcase or anything

monument · 23-09-2003 12:44pm

Originally posted by chill
I take it 'here' is Ireland.
It is easy for people 'here' to be opposed considering it isn't we that have to fight the war or suffer the casualties of war.

I’d find that statement insulting to all the people of the world, War at this size effects everyone, and more so Ireland is very effected by what happens in the U.S.

Originally posted by chill
As far as the UK is concerned the role of the anti Gov media has been out of proportion to the evidence they have been able to unearth. Thankfully enough people gave a damn about the plight of the Iraqi people to do something about it, unlike people here. But that's another subject on another forum. [/B]

I might answer that later, dont have time now.

Originally posted by chill
Not true. We have a far superior system imho. [/B]

Yes then the U.S., but not then other western nations

thread locked in humour...

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