Origins of Two Fingers

bloggs

Not really anything to do with language but...

You know when someone puts up their two fingers at you? Ever wonder who started it or where it first appeared?

Well during the middleages archers in the English army were used to point their two fingers at the enenmy to show that they were good at their job. The reason was, that if you were an archer, and enemy calvary attacked, and you were caught, the horseman would either kill you straight out, or cut of your middle and index fingers rendering you useless as an archer.

So at the beginning of the battle you would show your two fingers at the enemy as a taunt saying 'look at me, we won our last battle'

Praetorian

After hours, here we come!

WhiteWashMan

actually, i think you might find it was used during the 100 years war between the french and the english.
the french used to put up their two fingers at the english to show that they could still draw back the string on their crossbows, as i think the english had a habit of chopping of these fingers of prisoners. but, im not too sure about the last bit.

Cabaal

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan
actually, i think you might find it was used during the 100 years war between the french and the english.
the french used to put up their two fingers at the english to show that they could still draw back the string on their crossbows, as i think the english had a habit of chopping of these fingers of prisoners. but, im not too sure about the last bit.

Your correct about that WWM, another thing that used to happen is archers had no armor soooo at the beginning of a battle each archer would pick a target kill him and then run out and take there shield.

Not sure about this part, but when they did run out to take there armor and if the poor sod was still alive, the archer had a knife that they used to castrate the solider with and apparently this is where the term "bollixed" came from.

Used to know a guy that was into all the middle-aged and weapons he told me those two stories..

aodh_rua

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan
actually, i think you might find it was used during the 100 years war between the french and the english.
the french used to put up their two fingers at the english to show that they could still draw back the string on their crossbows, as i think the english had a habit of chopping of these fingers of prisoners. but, im not too sure about the last bit.

From what I know, the French so feared the English longbows that they cut the fingers of captured archers off in case they escaped. The two fingered salute was indeed to show that the English could still draw their bows. All that was during the 100 years war.

Talliesin

Originally posted by aodh_rua
All that was during the 100 years war.

Which in those days was known as Operation Speedy Resolution

Cabaal

Originally posted by aodh_rua
From what I know, the French so feared the English longbows that they cut the fingers of captured archers off in case they escaped.

Apparently they also did the same to English children if they came across them

Scruff

what brilliant trivia!

so where did the middle finger come from?
from the archers who managed to escape before the enemy managed to cut off the two of them?

mike65

http://ask.yahoo.com/ask/20030717.html

Mike.

banquo

this is hte first time i've visited this thread, and WOW!

Lenny

It took years for an archer to train and to be able to pull back the bow so well,
years of skill was suined in seconds by the fingers getting cut off...

DriftingRain

Never knew this....nice lil information there! And to think it now sorta means PEACE MAN! heheheh

Lenny

your "peace man" isn't that the two fingers showing the other side...

Space Coyote

Also ...

Churchill's "V" stood for victory, or victoire if you were in Occupied France and vrijheid for the Flemish.
The famous V-sign was deliberate, coarse and impertinent as well as defiant.
The list of those who have borrowed Mr Churchill's gesture is as varied as it is long.
With palm facing forwards, the V-sign was adopted as a peace symbol, finding particular favour in the counterculture of the 1960s. This did not stop Republican president Richard Nixon appropriating the V-sign, even while he continued the war in Vietnam.

Havelock

It is contributed to a large unit of Norman Longbow Archers (1000 men). The French had captured Hundreds of English Archers, and cut off their fingers, this paticular unit did not arrive in France until jst before the Battle of Agincourt. They signaled what they were at the French by means of the two drawing fingers. Their presence there turned the favour of the battle to the English (who where out numbered 4-1), as the French Mounted Army was ill-deciplinied and got bogged down in the muddy ground of Agincourt forest, and the arrows of the Longbows where capable of penetrating the heavy armour of the Knights.

skittishkitten

Originally posted by Lenny
your "peace man" isn't that the two fingers showing the other side...

Hmmmmm..... you mean if you show the OTHER side of you fingers then you don't have them ? Or just weren't allowed to use them during that battle ? Now I'm confused

Very Interesting indeed !

Peace Ya all !!

Question - When did the recurve come into "play" ? Less bow , more power

Havelock

There is some debate as to weather the Chinese or the Mongol where the first to develop the Recurve Bow. The earlist exams found to date, are recorded to be several centries BC. (I don't have my book with me, so can't give good approximation in good faith) as far as I remember it was about 650BC! Impressive level of technology, the Mongols also contructed "take down" Recurve bows (as in they could be folded in half for easier transport) about the same time.

According to the thing I saw on the History channel a couple of times, it was a battle during the 100 years war and in order to scare the english the franch had said that every archer captured would have the 2 fingers needed to pull back the drawstring cut off. To show their "defiance" the english soldiers gave the french the fingers before and after the battle to show them that they still had their draw fingers and would certainly use them again.



According to that program that was the first occurance...On holidays I used to tell people that story whenever I got drunk

WhiteWashMan

Originally posted by Havelock
There is some debate as to weather the Chinese or the Mongol where the first to develop the Recurve Bow. The earlist exams found to date, are recorded to be several centries BC. (I don't have my book with me, so can't give good approximation in good faith) as far as I remember it was about 650BC! Impressive level of technology, the Mongols also contructed "take down" Recurve bows (as in they could be folded in half for easier transport) about the same time.

the mongols also wore silk shirts so that removing bow heads from the body was easier and more likely to result in the person hit to survive.

those clever cloggs!