vegetarianism

Syth

Hiya, was just thinknig about they whole vegetarian thing, and I was wondering is it really immoral to kill animals to eat? So I decieded to ask any veggies out there, what are the best arguments for vegetarianism? I'm just wondering what really are the arguments. And I'm talking about the principals here, not any kind of "slaughterhouses are run creully" or religous arguments. Basically I was wondering if any one can convinve me that eating meat is unethical, I'm pretty open-minded.

doctor evil

I`m not vegetarian and I dont think it is unethical to eat meat but the animals should`nt be abused or pumped full of drugs. Personally I don`t think vegetarianism is such a big deal, I know people who just don`t eat meat . I can understand it to be a big deal if there is no adequate vegetarian menu, or you cant find decent recipes.

suppafly

I'm not a veggie myself, but i have a good feew friends who r and most of them, r just veggies cuz they say its healthtier, and others just don't really eat meat. Not really any reason they just don't.

Drakar

I am vegetarian, but only because eating bloody carcass bits isn't particularly attractive to me. I don't have anything against people who do or anything though...
I think it will be difficult for people to provide an argument that eating meat is immoral with a restriction on making any points that relate to religion or cruelty as you stipulate in the original post.

Anyhow, I'm really only participating in this so I can get in a quote:

If God hadn't wanted us to eat animals, then he wouldn't have made them out of food.

- Drakar

Lukin Black

lol @ quote

I've only talked with one vegetarian who gave it up because of the animal cruelty factor (I've spoken to about ten altogether, I figure). A few gave it up because they just didn't like it, but most gave it up because the thought of eating an animal (or part thereof) gave them the heebie-jeebies. One person just thought it was healthier not to eat it, but did break it once or twice. None I ever talked to would object to people eating meat in their company.

The one woman I know who was vegeterian because was against animal cruelty told me a story about how she was with a group of people. They went back to this person's house to stay. They person in question's wife was heavily pregnant, but although she was surprised with the guests, she did her best to cook for them. The only thing she had as a main course was a chicken, and she cooked it. Four out of the five vegeterians, who were only vegeterian for a couple of months, turned up their noses at the food, but the woman I know, who'd been a vegeterian for ten years at that stage, ate to show gratitude to the poor hostess.

Funny how people can show more compassion to animals than to humans.

beardedchicken

a friend of mine once told me (and i believe him) that if everyone on the planet was vegetarian, there would be no hunger in the world, because growing crops for food costs a fraction of what it costs to raise, care for and slaughter animals for food, in terms of both economy, and land costs.

i was veggie for 2 years, for lots of reasons, ethical reasons included, but mostly because it just feels better and healthier not to have all this heavy meat clogging up my digestive system. i only started eating meat again because i got very run down and anaemic, but i really want to go back veggie again. it's cheaper too!

loismustdie

i didn't eat meat or anything related for about 5 years but i was really weak and lived on vitamins even though i eat loads of fruit and veg. so about a year ago i started eatin chicken an fish, about 3 times a week an i've eat red meat about 6 times in all. this arrangement suits me fine becasue i do feel better but sometimes i just can't stomack meat. also most restaurants are desperate for veg options. if you're able to eat meat work away though. there's arguments for an against really

tribble

I became a veggie on boards!

Had lots od arguments from bob the unlucky octopus among others. Been a veggie for 'bout a year and a half.

Funny how people can show more compassion to animals than to humans.

While most others show none...

I suppose it comes down to differentiating between humans and animals.
Without religion telling you that you are the chosen ones, what possible moral justification can one have for eating flesh from one animal and not another?

The level of intelligence? - by that token I could eat Downs people...
The nutritional value? - not a problem, a veggie diet is lacking in NOTHING - it is bit more of a challenge to cook food - but educational also.

Personally I won't eat any sentient being - If it acknowledges it's own existance I won't touch it. (unless it threatens my existance - human or animal I will kill for survival).

tribble

Capt'n Midnight

a friend of mine once told me (and i believe him) that if everyone on the planet was vegetarian, there would be no hunger in the world, because growing crops for food costs a fraction of what it costs to raise, care for and slaughter animals for food, in terms of both economy, and land costs.[slash quote]

eh no.. the reason people don't have enough to eat is because they are poor. The rich dictate what is grown based on it's profitability. Many countries that get famine relief are exporting food at the time (others are growing non-food crops like coffee / cotton / sugar cane)

Anyway poor people don't eat meat - they simply can't afford it - remember that bit about the King of France wanting every family to be able to eat a chicken (and they had big families in them days)

ICI used to have a (large) bio-reactor on merseyside that could produce as much protein as an area the size of wales covered with soya. Ammitedly it was for animal feed - but you get the idea - using methane and artificial fertilisers you can feed a lot of people using no-land (if you're not squemish about eating bacteria) .

Syth

a friend of mine once told me (and i believe him) that if everyone on the planet was vegetarian, there would be no hunger in the world, because growing crops for food costs a fraction of what it costs to raise, care for and slaughter animals for food, in terms of both economy, and land costs.

Although it does cost less resources to 'make' meat, the world produces enough food as it is to feed everyone.

.oOo.

I just though it mite be one of those absoluteas (vegetarianism), that I had not seen the reason for. Kinda like the way no-one now can really defend slavery. Ah well I guess it's all relative. I remember a few years ago The Times had a few suppliments on what the future would be like (guesstimates of course) and one thing they imagined was being able to grow brain dead animals and stimulate their mussles artifically, leading the availibility of green meat.

Capt'n Midnight

Don't knock it - it's a job for life

- in classical times (before the industrial revolution) house-slaves were part of the family - free food etc..

Green Meat - Try the Eskimoo (edit for politically correct term) delicacy of rancid seal blubber, the meat't fairly green.

For meat to grow like that is messy - it would be much easier to genetically engineer fungi to a similar texture and taste..
(Verterbrate cells need growth factors & hormones that can only be created by other living cells of the same species.)
You could genetically engineer animals that were esentially brain dead (just the medulla oblongata & intra venious drip feeding of fermented plant material) but most vegies would still object.

In THHGTTG they bread an animal that was sentient - it could quite clearly state that it did not mind being eaten....

Seion

I have been a vegetarian for around 10 years, do not feel weak and am not anaemic. (Vegetarians in my experience tend to be healthier than non-vegetarians not because it is inherently healthier - it's not - but simply because the committed long term ones tend to take more of an interest in the nutritional value of what they eat. )

To me this is a very simple issue. I know that I dislike cruelty of any kind, and I know that animals feel pain. This is easy to see if you don’t believe me – try kicking the next dog or cat you see and see how it reacts.

For this reason, it is simply wrong for me to eat meat, because it is impossible to kill an animal painlessly. While this is occasionally done by vets in the case of pets that have severe health problems, it’s not an option for animals that end up in the food chain, because of course, it involves injecting lethal chemicals. These would then end up in the end-product.

Most importantly, it is no longer necessary for me to eat meat because I can easily get by without it. I can easily enjoy a diet that I enjoy without meat, because I can just go to the supermarket and buy everything I need. I don’t look down on those who have to eat meat for economic reasons, and were I to find myself in a situation where I had to (such as . . I don’t know . . . being stranded on a desert Island or somesuch), I would have no problem eating meat.

Basically, if you are fully aware of the circumstances that surround the killing of animals and have no problem with it, then really, I have no right to tell you that you shouldn’t eat it. I can only say it is wrong for me.

If however, you feel as I do that causing pain and suffering is wrong and you know that meat is acquired through the pain and suffering of an animal yet you eat it anyway, you are a hypocrite.

I tend not to push this idea on others - in my experience people have an interesting capacity to not think too hard about things they don't want to.

Capt'n Midnight

Lethal injection - one substance used is KCl - this is the main ingredient used in lo-sodium salt.

There is an arguement that says more animals are alive because they are bread for food. Certainly many non-food species have been wiped out in farmed areas. We used to have bears and wolves in Ireland. Now the biggest indeginous wild animal with a decent distribution is the Badger...

zeris

I know some of my meat eating friends that would not eat animals if they had to procure the flesh themselves. The split from animal to meal is vital to them. I suppose it is time for a Simpsons quote:

Homer: Lisa, honey. Are you saying your never going to eat any animal again? What about bacon?
Lisa: No!
Homer: Ham?
Lisa: No!
Homer: Porkchops?
Lisa: Dad! Those all come from the same animal!
Homer: Heh heh yeah right Lisa, a wonderful magical animal heh heh

Capt'n Midnight

The separation between food and animal words is a feature of the history of English language - not so apparent in others.

The Normans (French) ate meat while The Saxons (olde english) minded the animals and ate cabbage or somesuch

pig - ham / bacon / pork
cow - beef
calf - veal
deer - venison
seagull - chicken curry

Shinji

If however, you feel as I do that causing pain and suffering is wrong and you know that meat is acquired through the pain and suffering of an animal yet you eat it anyway, you are a hypocrite.

Don't you worry that you're causing pain and suffering to that high horse you're sitting on? The poor creature must be getting tired...

Obviously there are elements of the meat industry which behave in a reprehensible way. Animals are kept and killed in a manner which is unnessecarily cruel by many farms and slaughterhouses.

I recognise this fact, yet I choose to eat meat - because I'm an omnivore, and that's what omnivores DO. However, where possible, I will choose meat from a local, organic source. In general meat from these sources comes from animals that have been well treated and slaughtered humanely. Admittedly that's not why I choose it - I choose it because it tastes better and is less likely to be pumped full of drugs and/or water.

Fundamentally, I'm not much of a fan of cruelty, but I have no problem with killing animals in order to feed myself. I wouldn't have an issue with going out and doing it myself, either, unlike a lot of meat eaters.

(Now, admittedly, all that being said, I still rather enjoy foie gras and veal when I can get my hands on them. I guess at the end of the day, while I recognise the cruelty involved in the production, I don't *actully* care that much, because it tastes good. So sue me.)

Seion

Well, if you'd read the previous sentence to the one you quoted, you'd see that I prefaced that comment with:

"Basically, if you are fully aware of the circumstances that surround the killing of animals and have no problem with it, then really, I have no right to tell you that you shouldn’t eat it. I can only say it is wrong for me."

The horse in question is entirely comfortable, thank you:)

I mostly agree with and respect the rest of your post, although I would like to make a comment on this:

"I recognise this fact, yet I choose to eat meat - because I'm an omnivore, and that's what omnivores DO."

Actually that's not strictly speaking accurate. Omnivores like you and me have a choice in the matter. We can live an entirely healthy life without meat, which is not the case with carnivores.

The crux of my argument is that in today's world, in the circumstances we live in, we have a choice. You don't have to eat meat if you don't want to. If I had to, I would. I don't so I won't.

It is my experience that that people who get most upset with vegetarianism are those who feel threatened by it. (I am categorically not suggesting that you or any of the participants of this discussion do). I believe that many people who eat meat have a small voice deep down inside themselves telling them it's needlessly cruel, but they prefer to ignore it.

I should also point out that I am not the kind of self righteous evangalist that shouts at meat eaters in restaurants In fact, I think this is the first time I've actually ever been in a 'disagreement' about it.

joseph brand

I know a girl who told me that if she ever says 'catch me', she is not messin and is actually about to faint.

I did not believe her, til one day I heard her callin my name from another room cos she had fainted and needed some help and company as she was scared.

She is a Vegetarian.

The only thing she liked to eat was macaroni and cheese, in between cigs and tea.

Some people just aint fans of food eh???

I heard though, that when autopsies are done, there does tend to be a few pounds of beef still in digestive system???





Lord Flashheart: "You should treat your aircraft like you treat your woman.
Captain Blackadder: "So you should take your plane out to dinner and a movie?
Lord Flashheart: "No, get in her 5 times a day and take her to heaven and back!