ManU confidence

p.pete

I know this is a ManU thread being started by a Liverpool fan. Not trying to get up anyones nose, I just want opinions on how ManUs Summer transfer dealing will have effected confidence amongst the squad.

Fair enough the average fan can laugh off Veron and Beckham leaving the team - but how will the remaining squad be feeling a few days before the Charity shield.

Beckham is highly over-rated and Veron never seemed to fit in. Both however are respected internationals and both were respected by their team mates as valuable squad members.

My opinion is that they are probably over the loss of Beckham. Veron is a different story, he was starting to look good and the players were preparing for the season with the expectation that he was going to be playing a valuable part to the midfield.

So any opinions how how ManU players confidence may have been affected by all this?

smemon

the 2nevilles will be hurt by beckham leaving, gary and him had a good partnership on and off the picth.

the rest are over beckham and i think are glad to get rid of the media circus that followed them everywere. veron shone if you remember against celtic on his debut, or 2nd game when celtic beat utd at old trafford.

in the champions league he's an asset but he cant quite fit into the league. he likes time and space and outside-of-the-foot long killer balls. thats his trademark. he will be missed but can be replaced. i dont think fergie should sell before he buys in his replacement.

look what happened to becks, they thought they'd roni sowed up, sold becks and it all backfired.

smemon

my mistake, looks like he has accepted the 15m. surely fergie wont get in 40m and spend nothing. the fans will be furious.

he must have a big name or 2 lined up.

p.pete

Thats a good point about the media circus that they've managed to relieve themselves of. I think the Real players are a bit bemused by it all despite the fact that they "should" have seen it all before.

p.pete

Originally posted by smemon
my mistake, looks like he has accepted the 15m. surely fergie wont get in 40m and spend nothing. the fans will be furious.

he must have a big name or 2 lined up.

He has until Friday (or is that Thursday?) if any replacement is going to be playing in the CL.

Just hope that Chelski don't get in the way.

marct

Originally posted by smemon
my mistake, looks like he has accepted the 15m. surely fergie wont get in 40m and spend nothing. the fans will be furious.

he must have a big name or 2 lined up.

They definitely have the spending power but who can they buy? Who is left? And even there is someone left, will Roman just buy them as well. Strange stuff!

p.pete

There was speculation of Christiano Ronaldo earlier in the Summer, he would be an excellent signing for any team. As he is so young and without having that big a reputation (yet) I don't know if he would be the signing that squad needs for that confidence boost (or is one needed?)

tinofapples

I'm a little surprised by United's dealing so far this summer. There is a problem with any player United try to sign the price is automatically inflated , Ferdinand , Forlan , Ronaldinho .

I think they have something up there sleeve though .

Kaka ? Riquelme ? Van Der Vaart ?

Interesting couple of days ahead , as someone said Utd aren't gonna take in £40 million and not sign anyone big !!

smemon

i dont think the players will be too bothered about who comes in but the fans will soon turn on fergie if we fail to win things this season.

chmps lge deadline is thursday i think, friday at latest. only 1 or 2 days for fergie to snap up a big name player. the squad will definately be more comfortable without constant hype and hysteria around becks.

utd are interested in juaquin and defoe but they've not much experience. they would be long term signings.

howard, o'shea, silvestre, ferdinand, g.neville, giggs, scholes, keane, djema, v.nistlerooy, solksjaer will probably be the main 11. is it enough to retain the title??

p.pete

Ajax have stated that VDerVaart has extended his contract and is going nowhere, so pool and manu can forget him. Whether this is an invitation to offer an inflated price, I don't know.

The Muppet

I would not be concerned at the loss of beckhaM OR Veron.
I agree with the points alread made about becks and I think he was overrated as a player by the media. Darren fletcher si the beckham of the duture an dthe word at trafford is thta he is a better footballer that becks ws at his age. Fergie has a proven track record of bringing young player into the squad at the right time.

Veronis a wonderfull skillful passer of a ball but IMO he is not suited to the premiership. He needs to much time and space and never adapted to the pace in the prem. Also when he gives the ball away he doesnt try to win it back and he cant tackle. So overall I,m Not too sad to see him go. We seem to be forgetting that we have signed or are in process of signing 2 internationa midfielders this summer bring the total or midfielders at utd to 13 or 14.

tinofapples

I bet Veron will be a sucess at Stamford Bridge though !!

IMO United have been heavily stung recently in particular Veron & Rio .

Veron's departure represents a huge loss and it is slighty embarrassing thats why I'd be afraid Veron will show his true ability In London

p.pete

Originally posted by The Muppet
I would not be concerned at the loss of beckhaM OR Veron.
I agree with the points alread made about becks and I think he was overrated as a player by the media. Darren fletcher si the beckham of the duture an dthe word at trafford is thta he is a better footballer that becks ws at his age. Fergie has a proven track record of bringing young player into the squad at the right time.

Veronis a wonderfull skillful passer of a ball but IMO he is not suited to the premiership. He needs to much time and space and never adapted to the pace in the prem. Also when he gives the ball away he doesnt try to win it back and he cant tackle. So overall I,m Not too sad to see him go. We seem to be forgetting that we have signed or are in process of signing 2 internationa midfielders this summer bring the total or midfielders at utd to 13 or 14.

Kind of missing the point there. Obviously your not going to miss them, nor am I. Will the remaining squad miss them? The players were all trying to convince Veron to stay in the last week.

smemon

i agree, fletcher is a good player, lots of talent. 13-14 midfielders?! who? giggs, keane, scholes, djemba, 2 nevilles, fletcher, im probably leaving out a few reserves.

still think we need another big name midfielder. zambrotta perhaps. whats the deal with kleberson, will he still be eligible for the chmaps league?

40m for veron and becks, not bad. its like selling antiques that dont really do anything or serve any purpose just clutter up the house.

colster

I think Utd are right to sell Veron and Becks.
Ok Veron played well in the US but that's not much of an indicator on how he will cope in the premiership or CL.
Veron was effective in the CL but he always seems to coast through games and seems to unbalance the midfield.

About the signings made this summer I think that Ferguson has accepted that it is nearly always better to get a good player on the way up rather than a great player on the way down.

I would expect Utd to sign a forward and defender before the transfer deadline. I wouldn't be surprised to see Defoe and Puyol/Trabelski signing.

AthAnRi

Is the deadline for the Champions League Not August 31st? I think that Thursdays Deadline is only to get Veron Registered for the Preliminary Rounds. I might be mistaken.

I more p**sed off about the Veron thing. I felt that he was going to have a cracker this year but now its going to be with Chelsea not Man U. Anyway Im still gonna keep faith with SAF. 40 million is not gonna go to waste me thinks.

p.pete

At worst there will be some healthy dividends paid out at the end of the fiscal year.

That deadline is definitely there for chelsea having the players available for the third round, so quite possibly doesn't apply to the champions league proper.

Personally I think Chelsea should have enough there in their squad already to get through the round - if there is a later deadline for the group stages then no need to rush.

SteM

I know that the transfer deadline is Thursday for CL games, but I think there a window in January? If so then I can see Fergie leaving the squad as it is and bringing someone in if needed then. The current squad shouldn't have any problems getting past the first round of CL games!

I don't know who he can bring in though, quality with expirence is a bit thin on the ground.

Bannor

Man Utd haven't received £40M yet. They received something like £5.75M for Beckham with the rest being paid off over the course of his contract, it's also subject to Real's success - if they don't win the CL and La Liga then Man Utd won't get the full amount. The Veron deal is similar, £12.5M can be paid over the course of the contract, the other £2.5M is subject to Chelsea's success.

Personally I think that Man Utd got stung on the Beckham deal. Real will make the transfer fee back in shirt sales alone. Veron is a massive financial loss - they paid £28M for him and a large portion of that was up front, the remainder was to be paid over 12 months. Now they're looking at a return of £15M over 4 years - definitely not good business for a PLC.

On the field they seem to be on fire at the moment but they don't have depth in key areas. For example if RVN sustains an injury early in the season then they could be in serious trouble - Forlan or Solskjaer cannot carry the team. What surprises me is that they are only being seriously linked with full backs as signings - Sagnol, Trabelsi and Puyol. Another thing is the coaching situation - Quieroz has yet to be replaced.

jonno

Utd have a very strong squad even with the loss of Becks and Veron.

A midfield of: Solksjaer--Keane--Scholes--Butt--Giggs (assuming they will play RVN on his own of coarse) is nothing to be laughed at with Djemba-Djemba as cover. Even if they have more injuries they could always revert back to 4-4-2 with Bellion beside RVN.

Anyway i reckon they will wrap up the Kleberson deal and that will be that until January.

50Cent

are we short though??? I dont think so...

marct

Are you short?! Picture the scene, its March and a trip to highbury is on the cards. RVN injures himself in training and is out for 4 weeks. OK, now with the current squad make a team to beat Arsenal...good luck.

p.pete

Phil Nev proved very versatile towards the end of last season, I reckon he would give it a go up front.

The Muppet

RVN injures himself in training and is out for 4 weeks

Ruud is a class player and any team would miss a player of his quality. Very few players get through a season without injuries.Are you suggesting that utd can buy a player of his caliber to keep on the bench until RUUD gets injured. I Presume Fergie has tought of this scenario and has contingency plans.
After all Utds success was not built solely on the goals or RVN.

P-Pete on your point about the players not liking Verons move It just goes to show that at UTD the Manager makeS the decisions
not the players and thATs the way it should be. Players are paid good money to play they should have no input into tranfer dealing tactics etc. After all its the manager who will take ultimate responsibility if things dont work out.

LoneGunM@n

From Fergie's interview tonight, I'm not totally sure he wanted to sell Veron .... regardless of what appears to be the case, Fergie is answerable to the plc., so I'd say it's a good possibilty that Kenyon gave Fergie a gentle push in the direction the plc. wanted!!

LoneGunM@n

In relation to the sale of Becks, Keane has already come out and said that the team were over that .... or in other words, they are happy that all the sh1te that followed him [with the media & his tart] is well & truely gone!!

Look @ Paul Scholes .... 10 times better player than Becks & the only time I've ever seen an interview about him [not relating to a game he's played in] was when he refused to play in a Worthington Cup game .... he's the epitomy of a true professional .... he lets his football do the talking!!

Back on Topic
I don't think the loss of Becks & Veron will have any lasting effect on United's confidence .... The whole team knows that Fergie does everything for the betterment of the team.

The Muppet

Just seen the fergie interview om MUTV. He said he baught Klebeson to replace veron as chelseas initial approach was made 7 weeks ago. He is happy with the quality and quantity of midfielders at the club mentioning darren fletcher as a player he is impressed with. He wants to try and strenghten up on a striker and a defender before the 31 august deadline.

On the veron transfer when the salary savings are taken into account The deal works out at 25 m so Its good business in my books

marct

Originally posted by The Muppet
Ruud is a class player and any team would miss a player of his quality. Very few players get through a season without injuries.Are you suggesting that utd can buy a player of his caliber to keep on the bench until RUUD gets injured. I Presume Fergie has tought of this scenario and has contingency plans.
After all Utds success was not built solely on the goals or RVN.

Its not built solely on RVN's goals but if he is out the midfield looks thin enough as Ollie would probably have to bear the weight up front. If not then its Bellion and Forlan to get the goals!! The point is that if Ollie becomes a mainstay in midfield on the right- then in the event of an injury to RVN the front line is mediocre at best.

The Muppet

Thas Fair Comment. Fergie has said he would like to strengthen the atttack before the Deadline. Forlan will have to settle this year if he is to have a future in the usa tour he scored 4 goals but also had that spectacular miss. I would not like to havce to depend on him as he appears to be erratic but he just may prove me wrong and come good next season

colster

I have to laugh at the woryying about the reliance on RVN. You'd think that UTD were the only team overly reliant on 1 striker.
What would happen if Liverpool lost Owen or Arsenal lost Henry.
You can't say that Heskey, Baros are adequate replacements for Owen or that an ageing Bergkamp, Wiltord, Kanu or Jeffers could adequately replace Henry.
United probably lack numbers in that department but already have Solskjaer, Forlan and Bellion which is more than they had last season.

I'd like to see them get a big striker someone like Beattie to complement the ones we have already.
I think that Defoe would be too like Solskjaer Forland and Bellion.
We need someone who is dangerous in the air.

p.pete

Originally posted by colster

What would happen if Liverpool lost Owen or Arsenal lost Henry.

Liverpool are well used to losing Owen, it happens every season at least once. What happens is, it takes a couple of games but then the midfield starts scoring. Then Owen comes back and the midfield stops scoring and it takes a couple of games for Owen to start scoring again.

These transition periods play havoc with our results (as were not getting goals).

Since joining ManU RVN has been mainly injury free - obviously every player picks up knocks. It is a fair point, how would ManU cope at this stage without him?

Bannor

Originally posted by The Muppet
On the veron transfer when the salary savings are taken into account The deal works out at 25 m so Its good business in my books

That's just spin for the investors in the PLC - was there mention of the fact that Veron is entitled to a cut of the transfer fee because he didn't ask for the transfer? He's going to get £1.5M out of the deal, which comes straight out of the initial payment.

Paying £28M over 12 months and then selling for £15M over 4 years is not good business. With inflation the £28M they spent is actually worth over £29M currently. The fact is that they have sold a player in his prime for almost a 50% loss, that's without taking the player's salary into account.

marct

Originally posted by colster
I have to laugh at the woryying about the reliance on RVN. You'd think that UTD were the only team overly reliant on 1 striker.
What would happen if Liverpool lost Owen or Arsenal lost Henry.
You can't say that Heskey, Baros are adequate replacements for Owen or that an ageing Bergkamp, Wiltord, Kanu or Jeffers could adequately replace Henry.
United probably lack numbers in that department but already have Solskjaer, Forlan and Bellion which is more than they had last season.

I'd like to see them get a big striker someone like Beattie to complement the ones we have already.
I think that Defoe would be too like Solskjaer Forland and Bellion.
We need someone who is dangerous in the air.

Bah! Read the posts first! The point is that iff Ollie is moved up fron the midfield is bare on the right and if he stays in mid-field its just Bellion and Forlan. You reckon they could take Arsenal...:rolleyes:

colster

Originally posted by marct
Bah! Read the posts first! The point is that iff Ollie is moved up fron the midfield is bare on the right and if he stays in mid-field its just Bellion and Forlan. You reckon they could take Arsenal...:rolleyes:

I think Utd could beat Arsenal without RVN. After all they did last season with a central midfield of Neville and Veron. Who would have bet on them doing that before the game.

I disagree strongly that Utd don't have anyone who could play on the right if Solskjaer was moved up front. Scholes, P Neville, Butt and Fletcher have played there before and can do a good job.
I think the team below (minus RVN) would beat most teams in the Premiership including Arsenal.

Barthez,

G Neville Ferdinand Silvestre O'Shea

Scholes Keane Butt Giggs

Forlan Solskjaer

And this team is without the likes of Djemba-Djemba, Kleberson and Bellion

colster

Originally posted by p.pete
Liverpool are well used to losing Owen, it happens every season at least once. What happens is, it takes a couple of games but then the midfield starts scoring. Then Owen comes back and the midfield stops scoring and it takes a couple of games for Owen to start scoring again.

These transition periods play havoc with our results (as were not getting goals).

Since joining ManU RVN has been mainly injury free - obviously every player picks up knocks. It is a fair point, how would ManU cope at this stage without him?

Hey Utd have midfielders like Giggs and Scholes who score regardless of whether RVN is in the team or not.
Utd are way better equipped than Liverpool are to handle the loss of a player. Liverpool are 1 dimensional which is one thing you can't say about Utd.
Utd have proven quite often over the last few seasons that they can adapt to the loss of any one player, play different systems and styles and still succeed.

Bannor

Originally posted by marct
Bah! Read the posts first! The point is that iff Ollie is moved up fron the midfield is bare on the right and if he stays in mid-field its just Bellion and Forlan. You reckon they could take Arsenal...:rolleyes:

On this evidence possibly not...

Forlan vs Juventus

p.pete

Excellent Bannor, I could watch that all day. It's amazing what a reduction the wage bill will do for a team:D

Big Ears

Alot of people have said about waht happens if united lose RVN .but i think losing scholes would be way worse. the guy got 20 goals last season + alot of assists and played alot better than RVN. Im very much an anti man u person and dont think much of nistelrooy but scholes is top class.

The Muppet

originally posted by bannor
That's just spin for the investors in the PLC

Do you thinks utd are still gonna pay him 60k a week for the remainder of his contract. Even If They Have to give him a 1.5m payoff it is still smallfry compared to the 9.6 Million he would have earned for the remaining 3 years of his contract. I,m not sure he is entitled to the payoff as altough he didnt ask for a move some reports have suggested that the final decision to move was his.

p.pete

Muppet, it is always goin to be the players decision to move clubs - at least these days now that players have more say as to what happens in their own career.

If Veron decided to join Chelsea it does not mean he asked for the move. He was told Chelsea were interested ages ago and he said no. Chelsea came back with offers which ManU eventually accepted.

The Muppet

If Veron decided to join Chelsea it does not mean he asked for the move.

If veron was told chelsea was in for him and fergie told him that he could stay or go and he chose to go would he still be entitled to the 1.5m. for being sold.

Im not saying this is the case i was just putting this scenario as one posssibility

Its academic anyway because even with the 1.5 m payout utd would be still saving 8m on wages for veron over the 3 years remaining on his contract. So add that to the 15m fee thats 23m
which is good money in the deflated tranfer market for a player who didn't live up to expectationas at utd.

Ps Its a pity Liverpool didnt buy him IMO he would have been an ideal partner fro Emile:D

Bannor

Originally posted by The Muppet
Do you thinks utd are still gonna pay him 60k a week for the remainder of his contract. Even If They Have to give him a 1.5m payoff it is still smallfry compared to the 9.6 Million he would have earned for the remaining 3 years of his contract. I,m not sure he is entitled to the payoff as altough he didnt ask for a move some reports have suggested that the final decision to move was his.

It's still just spin. By the same reasoning every big transfer is worth millions more that the fee quoted! :rolleyes:

Selling an asset for £15M when you paid £28M for it 2 years previously is not good news to give to the stock market. Such things usually result in a fall in the share price. Inflating the price by including the 'savings' on wages makes the deal look more respectable especially in a 'deflated' market where Chelsea are throwing money away.

Question : Why wasn't the Beckham price similarly inflated with spin? He was supposedly on £70k a week which would mean the deal was actually worth £7M more than the PLC will receive from Real Madrid.

Bannor

Originally posted by The Muppet
If veron was told chelsea was in for him and fergie told him that he could stay or go and he chose to go would he still be entitled to the 1.5m. for being sold.

Yes - he didn't request the transfer, the club decided to sell him.

AthAnRi

Its pretty obvious what SAF's plan is. I don't think he'll be retiring for a good few years yet. Ferguson's plan was always a youth Policy but in Recent years he ditched that as he thought he was going to Retire and instead he brought in big name players, eg Veron, Van Nistlerooy etc. Now I think he is going back to his roots and if you look at it his team for the future is almost complete

Howard (24)
O' Shea (21)
Rio(24)
Brown(23)
?????
Fletcher(20)
Djemba Djemba(22)
Kleberson(23)
Richardson(19)
Bellion(20)
Defoe(20), Van Der Vart(21) or possibly Ronaldo(18)(Sport Lisbon)

This is realisticly the way Fergie won the first champions league by building a team around youngsters. there will probably additions but I reckon in 3-4 years this will be the guts of the team. All they will need is a heart like Keano to drive them on which may be an ageing but still devastating Van Nistlerooy. as for Keanos he will be the Assistant Manager. I think I'll put my faith in Fergie. He hasn't done too bad yet

The Muppet

Makes sense and agree on keano and fergi comments.

Do you not think djemba djemba could play the keane role . I only saw him in the porto match but he looked the part to me.



Bannor

The final decision to sell any player while still in contract
is down to the club. These players are not all eligable for a golden hanshake it depends on the individual circumstances in each case..

UbahOne

Lads lets not get carried away. Lets just wait till the 31s'st dealine.

cournioni

Well I hope that either the defender or attacker that Ferguson has got "lined up" is a world class player/players. I'm hoping for someone along the lines of Ayala or Aimar tbh.

UbahOne

I hope we get Puyol. He looks a deadly player.

As for the striker/Attacking Midfielder, I hope its someone like Aimar too.

AthAnRi

I haven't seen Djemba Djemba yet but he must be pretty good. Wheter or not he can fill Keanes shoes is a huge ask. Fergie believes he has the ability but has he got the same hunger and drive? Time will tell, but I hope so.

Lets not forget that Keane is still around and very eager to prove he's not finished. And we all know what he is capable of when he feels he has a point to prove.

Fergie will add to his squad before next friday. By then he will have acquired Kleberson. With either Trabelski or Puyol following. Defoe could follow but he may not be cheap cause its worth more to west ham for him to stay and for them to be promoted than it is for him to leave for £10 and not.

UbahOne

Im very excited about the new season to be honest...it will be the strongest one yet i reckon with all the talent around...

Dr Bolouswki

I don't think the loss of Veron and Beckham will effect Man Utd's confidence that much at all. Neither were driving forces in the team, Veron was bit part at best and Beckham didn't feature in any of United's major games last season. The Norwegian weasel (Ican't spell his name) plays very well on the right and gives more options in the attacking 3rd than Beckham did (crosses excepted)...

united's midfield is argueably one of the strongest in the premiership, and will soon include kleberson, who has plenty of experience in big game situations (world Cup medal anyone?)

Up front they could maybe, maybe, do with another option - Ruud the fcuking machine is obviously irreplacable if injured, but there aren't many teams who would turn down Solskjaeer, Slolksjaar.... the norwegian rat in a hurry. Ok, Forlan seems to be a bit off the mark and Bellion is unproven - and don't forget Scholes and his 20+ goals last season....

I still say, and i started a thread at the end of last season a long these lines - I reckon Utd need another central defender. Ok ok, I know Keane, Brown, Gary Neville can all fall in there, but Silvestre isn't fergusons idea of a centre back so that leaves Rio as the only definive Ferguson 1st choice option. I'm hoping Utd get found out in this department, but I guess we'll see.

Confience shaken? They looked far more dangerous than Arsenal in todays game. I'd say the removal of the 'star' players will drive the guys that were on the fringe to higher endeavours.

Oh - and to all you Utd supporters - condolences on the death of Jimmy Davis. I'm a Man City supporter, but football is passion and rivalry is great but its tragic to see ANY player, particularly one so young, die before their time.

Title challenge? I'm expecting Arsenal, Chelsea and Newcastle to all be in until at least the last 4 games of the season - could be the best season yet competition wise.

Liverpool have no hope. Houllier will lose his job this season.

City? It's always exciting - but I'm banking on top seven.