Quad Timing Frenchies

Von

Ehhhh ok. I've heard enough people talking about the French team's great teamplay and coordination and i'm right annoyed. We found when the weekend was over that Sun had a stopwatch attached to his monitor. When anybody got quad he'd start it and it did a 60 second countdown. So the French knew EXACTLY when the next quad was about to appear and could arrive simultaneously right before it respawned. We on the other hand took chances on when we thought it would arrive. If we got to quad a few seconds early we got raped by 3 frenchies arriving on time etc. Anyone of us arriving a second or 2 late got quadded.

I dunno how much this affected the results of the games. We thought we played poorly. But it bleedin annoyed me when i found out. Contrast their excellent quad timing with their pathetic pent timing.

Vonsta

SeP

i dont like the sound of that at all
arghh but like what can ya do now...just make sure in footure i guess

on pent timing have u seen xenon do it, without any timer he manages to jump out the dm3 window and land on it! its insane!! against UK he jumped down and landed on it just as it spawned with 3 UK lads outside at it ffs was deadly hehe

Mickah

That's cheating

Mickah

Dr_Teeth

Yeah, how could the officials not have noticed the big red "Spawn Pent" button on his keyboard???? Muppetry.

Teeth.

Cheez

Where can i get that demo Sep lad sounds good???
huh?

DeVore

To be fair the french pointed it out to me at the start but I had a ton of things to sort out. I thought it was a clock to be honest and I really didnt see any harm in it since we all have access to the hud clock.
It transpired that it was a countdown clock that was button start/stopped.

I dunno how much affect it had, but it does explain their excellent quad timing.

HOWEVER I dont want this to turn into "wah wah bleedin frenchies" they were very kind to us and we made some good mates over there.
They are (hopefully) coming over for QPII so we can exact revenge then

Lets focus on the future and not quibble about the past.

DeV.

Zero

Yeah, I agree, or something.

earthworm_jim

In fairness, regular tabbing to the clock is pretty much the same thing in a good players hands. I dunno if I'd count that as seriously cheating.

Hobbes

Sure you can just get a CFG to do it. I've seen one in Q2, so I can't see why it wouldn't work in Q1. I suppose someone would think that cheating?

Koopa

go on so, cut+paste the cfg..
or at least tell us how to time quads using a config... i have a cfg that jumps for me when walk near ledges, but it misses the dm4 quad ledge ...

ste

But you could use the NFproxy, or you could (like most people) use quad timing sounds. Or use a 30 second nme quad soundtrigger when u see a quad nme. Its not cheating, its being ahead.

Hobbes

Ste explained it I think. I got it a while back but never used it. Basically if you saw someone taking quad you pressed a button it would send a Team message "QUAD TAKEN" or "QUAD TAKEN BY NME" and it would play a wav which would make the Quad sound, then delay then "Quad respawn in 30 seconds... 10 seconds... 5... 4.. 3... 2... 1..."

However now that I think of it, just replace the quad wav with that one. Don't know if it would work in Q1, but it did certainly in Q2 (although I can't remember who the Irish lad who did the voice )

Koopa... have you any idea how long it was since I played with a cfg file?!

It would be something like (all commands totally wrong? but what the hey)...

bind q "say_team QUAD TAKEN;playwav Quadcount.wav"
bind w "say_team QUAD TAKEN BY NME;playwav Quadcount.wav"

Only you get to hear the Wav, your team mates have to press the button as well to get a count. It's not an exact science, but I can see where it would help.


[This message has been edited by Hobbes (edited 03-03-99).]

Chaos

I dont think a stop watch is somthing too be pist off with theres a little clock on the console whcih u can move around
FAir fu(ks too them if there using a stop watch

Von

Bah. Everyone missing the point. We wouldnt have let them use a quad timer anymore than they would have let Dev stand behind them and report their positions and status to us. They made sure WE weren't trying any funny stuff oh yeah.

The standard defence offered by people who use quad timers is "It's the same at looking at a clock or using the kteams "Scores" command." If that's so, then why use a timer? Cos it isn't the ****ing same. It's 100% accurate and requires no skill. Just like a bot is 100% accurate. Timers are banned from proxies for a reason. Because they are lame.

I don't really mind if we lose by being outplayed but I do mind being cheated. by less skilled players

They got about 1 pent in the 2 Dm3 games, we got the rest cos we could time it in our heads roughly when it was due. It's pointless speculating whether they would have beaten us without help from their timer or not.

Man I am annoyed at that French team. They claim Koopa was lying when he said he had no sound and maintain that he's not better than all the French players. And they used one of the lamest devices in quake without telling us, a bleeding quad timer. Beast and I didn't mind when Dream was hiding in the 2 v 2. Just showed he was lame.

I need a lie down.

WhiteWashMan

and they should have taken off all their wrist watches as well

Von

We should have deleted all their dodgy wav files and made them play in their underwear dammit. Don't trust Johnny Foreigner.

regi

I quite agree... Give Johnny Foreigner a taste of cold steel - he doesn't like that up em.

Dan

PS What do you expect from chicken **** frogs? We've been saying they're bad ****s for 900 years. And we haven't lost yet.

Ronin

hate to be a spoil spot but lads don`t ye all have wrist watchs?? , can ye not count either??? 1 to 60 kinda hard .

Ro.

earthworm_jim

I think the best thing for both the french and irish is to go by the results - the french were better team players, and koop was a better dueller. On average, the irish were better at 2-2's (3 out of 4 teams in the 1/4 finals), but the french sneaked the final.

When QPII comes along, we'll hopefully see the french team in Dublin, and we can give them 4 good PC's (P90's are good right? ) and the two nations can mix it once again.

When's the NI thing on by the way? Might take a car load up to that..

Bunny

Yeah Jim...I'm very much on for NI, its just a day I think...but for the duels anyhow, and to get to know some of them and see if they're up for some team games

Marie

Guyz, I had promised myself to not post anymore but here I have to speak.

I am pretty deceived with you Von. Sun indeed has a clock stuck on the plastic under his screen, the clock only gives seconds, true.
But do you really hear yourself write? Do you really think that one can, while playing an important game, take his hand off his mouse, press a bouton up to onto his screen to turn a clock on and go back to his mouse?
Be serious, if Sun looks up at his clock to watch the time what is wrong with this, it takes 1/2 a second off his attention, as much as it would take to press the TAB key if you were using Quake's timer.

I hope my english is clear enough so it says exactly what I mean... not easy to argue when you are not a native.

My opinion....
Marie

Hobbes

I'm not going to get into an argument about the French using it, personally if you's didn't question it when it was sitting there tough

However a timer that countsdown from 60 to 0 is a hell of lot different then the HUD clock.

You have to press tab to see the time when the quad is taken. You then have to add 60 to that (pretty hard for us Irish chaps ) then you have to press TAB to actually see the time (someone correct me if I'm wrong, it's so long since I played Q1).

Whereas with the timer, it's sitting slap bang right in front of you, and if it's a timer there's a good chance it beeps when it hits zero.

Using the HUD clock requires a hell of a lot of skill to use properly, most people just time it in thier head as it's easier. The timer on the other hand is just a cheap trick.

My 2 cents.

Von

Riot. In answer to Marie, if Sun's countdown clock was so hard to operate or had no advantage over using the game clock then why use it? All cheats use the same excuse. Why did Skill5 use luminous nails? A little cheat that makes nailing a tinsy winsy bit easier. Altered models were supposed to be banned.

We played badly but fairly and lost. The french cheated and played poorly (they failed to time pent as well as they timed quads and could not lockdown levels).

Ok the next time we play, we will have enormous voice activated neon 60 second countdown thingys for quads. Not that it'd be any different to alt tabbing and having a look at the time in windows.

Hobbes speaks the truth.

Chaos

Erm like who gives a ****?
the games are over n done with yiz lost and just leave it at that, i hardly think bright nails and a ickle stop watch beside his montior gave them an allmighty advantage and made them kick our butts

ste

jAySuS von MAN!

relax.

SO they "cheated" in your eyes, fair enuf ur allowd have ur own opinion but don't make a show outa it (im one to talk) just BITE the bullet.

Zero

Ah Jezus Von in fairness.
Pointing out a little timer on his monitor is getting a bit nit-picky. We didn't question it at the time, and as for altered models, they were not checked on ANY machine. For one thing, my machine, which was used by one of the team, had every dodgy little trick in the book built into the models, and i'll freely admit it, because I didn't see one machine there that hadn't at least ONE dodgy model on it. Yeah, mine had luminous nails too.

It's making the Irish look like sore losers now, purely because of your opinion up here as a player on the team. The Irish had better skilled players, even rusty old me knocked em around CA, but the french were better team players, that's why they won, not because of a poundshop-timer stuck onto a monitor. If it's legal to look at your wristwatch to time quads, its legal to pull the straps off your watch and pritt-stick it to your screen, lets not make an international show of ourselves over a silly little technicality.

Zero.

(edit: btw, we spotted that timer before any machine was up and running, I showed it to Beast and Dev, and while it's a sneaky little trick, it doesnt make the French cheaters. And who was that blonde bird??)

[This message has been edited by Zero (edited 04-03-99).]

Bunny

I dont know about you, but we just got our asses kicked in there man.

Yeah I agree with Z

Von

hahaha

i give up

WhiteWashMan

anyone know where i can but a watch?

white(whats the time?)wash

SKILL5

von, when i used luminous nails ????????? i only use modified missile and grenade mdl for ukcl and fps.

ie and fr teams agreed on setting before matches , agreed with proxy use and with bright skin use , so hud clock was ok. Don't say me you only see my hud clock or watch of sun at the end.
I didn't know before matches that all ie membre play in software, bright skin in software is very big cheat, but i said nothing because bright skins were authorized and in all mode..

thx altavista translator.

Koopa

i do not think having a clock can be called cheating, just preparedness i suppose..

but fullbright skins are NOT cheating..
Zoid says this in an email to [Z]Blitzer..

this is from Blitzer's webpage:
www.iscape.fi/blitzer/quake/zoidmail.html


"The following is a mail I sent to Zoid and the reply. The conclusion is that there's nothing wrong with fullbrite skins..

---

Original Message

---

From: Kalle Kataja
To: zoid@idsoftware.com
Date: Monday, December 21, 1998 8:29 AM
Subject: Idea for next QW release
>
> Hello. I was wondering if it would be possible to strip the fullbright
>colors from QW player skins?
> In my opinion the ability to use fullbright skins ruins the otherwise
>almost perfect game.
>
>--
>Kalle Kataja
>blitzer@iscape.fi
>

---

From zoid@idsoftware.com Mon Dec 21 21:06:50 1998
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From: "Dave Kirsch"
To: "Kalle Kataja"
Subject: Re: Idea for next QW release
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No, it's part of the game.

/// Zoid.
"


[This message has been edited by Cloud (edited 05-03-99).]

[This message has been edited by Koopa (edited 05-03-99).]

[This message has been edited by Koopa (edited 05-03-99).]

[This message has been edited by Koopa (edited 05-03-99).]

Koopa

{!}

[This message has been edited by Koopa (edited 05-03-99).]

Von

Me too.

As of now I use

1: The Qizmo/NFProxy HUD clock
2: The Kteams Scores Command
3: Quad timing wav files
4: A Digital 60 second countdown timer attached to my monitor
5: A 5 minute one for pents.
6: My sister standing behind me timing powerups.

I reckon that's enough. Counting to 30 in your head is lame. No skillz.

Ah sorry bout the nails thing Skill5. GL probably just made them look glowy or something.

Koopa

me too!

SKILL5

change mdl, it's also part of the game.

use shambler.mdl for player.mdl is NOT cheating for you ????

Von

If you can change player.mdl with shambler.mdl using a console command then it's not cheating.

Koopa

Zoid didnt say anything about shambler.mdl (you will have to ask him ),
but he HAS said fullbrights are not cheating, and he is GOD.

fullbright skins is a console command..
type "allskins <brightskin>"

its like using "v_kicktime 0"
or "fov"
i mean, you can have a fov of 170 and its not considered cheating.. no-one will complain that you are not playing "quake as it was meant to be played" by using fov 170..
"v_kicktime 0" is DEFINITELY a cheat if you say fullbrights are cheats, as is cl_rollangle, changing your mouse sensitivity above 11 (the mouse slider in quake only goes up to 11), and the "gamma" command

Proxies are definitely cheats, and should be banned {!}

SKILL5

Why in glqw we can't use bright skin and see players in dark ??? too difficult to add this feature in gl or too difficult to remove this cheat in software version ?

Koopa

"too difficult to add this feature in gl" -yes, probably..

"or too difficult to remove this cheat in software version ?" -No, probably more like Zoid is leaving in the fullbrights to make sure you can actually SEE the player model in software quake.. even in lighted areas, its much harder to see the normal player skin in software than in GL...

guest

ohw, I don't consider anyone in the lan was cheating. Timing quad or pent is very important in teamplays. Using the kteam scores command, the hud clock, using a watch, your sister or counting in your head is necessary. I'm quite disappointed and surprised about your reaction, von. Using material quad timers or the scores or the kteam feature is a well known tip used since a long time by the quake scene. I just think you still sad about our lan results. I sincerely hope you learned about this. Please begin to use any allowed timer method (no .wav modifying or cheating nfproxy), so you will have better chances next time we'll meet. Using the best things to get the better chances is a "pro" attitude if these things stay in some "good-sense" limits. The only problem is that people don't put this limit at the same place.

I hope you understood all of this (babelfishless)

friendly,

Mandrixx

Bunny

We play more clan arena, the french play more wars and rocket arena....we lost to a better, more experienced team. ...And I for one welcome our new french friends, as a trusted quake player I can be useful in rounding up others to toil in your underground sugar caves

Mickah

I reckon using anything other than yer head to time quads is lame.

It takes skill and concentration to time quads and pents, personnally i do better without a watch or clock when i'm running either.

Problem is Quake is so open to "cheating", that no-one knows where to draw the line.

Me, i'm just honest.

Mickah

elexes

i dont think its a cheat its a help if i had though of that in my matches id of done it dont see any harm in it lads maby you should consider it .

Von

There was agreement on using fullbrights and proxies (clocks are ok) but there was no agreement on using digital timers mounted on monitors which are more precise.

The fact that we played **** and would have lost the 4 v 4's no matter what doesn't make it ok to cheat. Koopa had no trouble in duels but it doesn't mean it's ok to use a bot just to perk up his shaft aim in case 1 cell gets wasted.

number1

[This message has been edited by number1 (edited 06-03-99).]


[This message has been edited by DeVore (edited 06-03-99).]

Von

Mandrixx wrote
"Please begin to use any allowed timer method (no .wav modifying or cheating nfproxy)"

hehe. Your lame little stopwatch would not have been allowed by us. Next time we play, I'll use whatever I like to win. If you don't know about it, it's ok. I won''t bother asking what you consider cheating.

Question: Why were you all so good at timing quad perfectly but always late to Pent? I'm just curious.

Blade

Wah, down Von! let me just explain something to all of you who may be offended by what von is saying, I've known Von for years now what with him being in my clan and basically he's always been very anti cheating, he likes to play the game as ID intended, he always refused to take any modified models from me of any kind claiming they were cheats even the most basic FPS enhancers. Thats just the way Von is, however I too like Von assumed that these lan games as many other important games around the world were to be played under the strictest of rules and with no modifications whatsoever, the only thing we heard before going to Paris was that whiteskins were allowed so the lads used them and cleaned up their PC's of all other mods, I think all this should have been cleared up before hand so all our lads would have used the quad wav files and whatever other mods they were used to using. However I don't blame the French for any of this, it was up to team.ie to sort all this out with the French before hand, Von just assumed no mods, cheats or whatever you want to call them were allowed.

Blade

Koopa

calm down von, how can ya say using a watch was cheating? it doesnt help you aim, and it doesnt tell you the location of your enemy..
personally, i wouldnt use a watch, i would use the HUD clock, but thats up to preference.
maybe in GLquake at 1024*768 the HUD clock is too small?

btw, the reason ppl use coloured team-say messages, is because they all play GLquake at high resolution, its an effort to actually read messages. We dont need colour because at 320*200 in software, the team message is quite readable...

personally, the only things i consider cheating, are:
1. bots (duh)
2. hacked maps
3. glowing models(player, weapons, etc.).. because you can see the glow before you see the player/weapon. also, glowing armour can sometimes be seen behind walls..
4. proxy pointing to 'see' behind walls
5. some timers (eg. proxy), that get triggered even though you wouldnt have seen/heard the powerup get picked up(the network packet triggers them??).

more things may be added to this list, once i find out about them

next time im falling into lava just before the end of a duel, i going to keep typing timerefresh so i float in air and dont lose a frag


[This message has been edited by Koopa (edited 06-03-99).]

Koopa

blade got his post in before me.. wah

"our lads would have used the quad wav files and whatever other mods they were used to using"
noway lors, we stopped using those a long time ago
they show up in f_modified anyway...



[This message has been edited by Koopa (edited 06-03-99).]

Zero

ehh....yawn, we lost and it wasn't because of Suns timer, which most of us saw from the beginning. Can we leave it there?

DaNoLd

Did anyone of you remember the 'brightskins incident' during a US tournament (PGL I think)?

I clearly see a pattern emerging.
We've been in different places in Europe to play Quake, and sometimes, I was absolutely stunned by the tricks people used while playing. Theses tricks are now common, but watching people to use them in front of everyone, without any reaction... That was surrealist. On the other hand, it's impossible to check 200+ computers for exotic stuff, for every matches (imagine a guy standing behind you all the time).

For future matches (not only for fr/ie ones), it could be interesting to assign a pair of people (1/team) who would check for rules , tools, settings etc.. to be respected during the 'official' matches. They would also assume the responsibility of it. Of course, everyone has to be vigilant, as it's not always that a player will deliberately break the rules (it's easy to forget to switch from 'tools.cfg' to 'skills.cfg').

If >>>I<<< was that person during the fr/ie event, trust me, I would asked Sun to remove or hide that clock he had on his monitor. In fact I did, I always told him that it represents an unfair advantage. But what can I do? 'raaah, shut up Dan'. I don't mind if he uses it when he plays over inet. The main reason if that you absolutely can't prevent people to use some kind of assistance during an internet match. Beside meeting on Lan parties to enjoy a 13/50ms class ping, it is also to expect decent/honest/no-cheat games to be played.

If you (player/spectator/supporter) spot something suspicious, you have to report it to 1 single person, who may represent some 'authority' and prevents the abuses (my mind is so twisted I could assume that role). Otherwise, your voice may not be heard.

I would forbid crosshair for competition for example.