Thought provoking articles

Velvet Vocals

Ok... so I've just read this article and I'm wondering what other people think about it......

As Vatican mobilizes against gay marriage, New York opens first gay high school
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
NEW YORK
New York City is creating the United States' first public high school for gays, bisexuals and transgender students.
The Harvey Milk High School will enroll about 100 students and open in a newly renovated building in the fall. It is named after San Francisco's first openly gay city supervisor, who was assassinated in 1978.
"I think everybody feels that it's a good idea because some of the kids who are gays and lesbians have been constantly harassed and beaten in other schools," Mayor Michael Bloomberg said Monday. "It lets them get an education without having to worry."
The school is an expansion of a two-classroom public school program that began in 1984. A gay-rights youth advocacy group, the Hetrick-Martin Institute, has managed and financed the program since its inception.
The new school's principal, William Salzman, said the school will be academically challenging and will follow mandatory English and math programs. It also will specialize in computer technology, arts and culinary arts.
The Hetrick-Martin Institute's Web site says the school will give its students "an opportunity to obtain a secondary education in a safe and supportive environment. ... We believe that success requires the ability to respect and value the diverse human community."
It is "for lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and questioning youth between the ages of 12 and 21 and their families."
State Conservative Party Chairman Mike Long criticized the creation of the school.
"Is there a different way to teach homosexuals? Is there gay math? This is wrong," Long said. "There's no reason these children should be treated separately."
On the Net:
New York City Department of Education <<http://www.nycenet.edu>>
Harvey Milk School <<http://www.hmi.org>>
Vatican alarmed at growing legal acceptance of same-sex unions
The Vatican is seeking to enlist politicians and worldwide public opinion in its campaign against gay marriages, alarmed by growing legal acceptance of same-sex unions in Europe and North America.
Instructions, calling on politicians to oppose extending rights granted to traditional couples, are in a document prepared by the Church's guardian of orthodoxy, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Vatican officials said Monday.
The document-"Considerations Regarding Proposals to Give Legal Recognition to Unions Between Homosexual Persons"-will be released Thursday, the Vatican said.
A Vatican official familar with the document called it a "practical reflection" for both Catholic and non-Catholic politicians and public opinion in general.
"It asks that the legal recognition accorded the traditional marriages not be extended to same-sex unions," the official told The Associated Press, speaking on condition of anonymity.
Pope John Paul II and top Vatican officials have been speaking out for months against legislative proposals to legalize same-sex marriages.
It is not the only Christian denomination embroiled in the debate.
At their national convention, which begins Wednesday in Minneapolis, Minnesota, the Episcopal Church in the United States will decide whether to approve same-sex unions and openly gay clergy, issues sharply dividing the church.
Catholic teaching says homosexuals must not be subjected to "unjust discrimination" but should be chaste.
In January, the pope approved guidelines for Catholic politicians that said church opposition to abortion, euthanasia and same-sex marriage was not up for negotiation.
It said laws safeguarding marriage between man and woman must be promoted and that "in no way can other forms of cohabitation be placed on same level as marriage, nor can they receive legal recognition as such."
Legal acceptance is growing.
Two Canadian provinces-Ontario and British Columbia-have legalized homosexual marriage under recent court rulings, a move that has attracted gays from across the border in the United States.
The Massachusetts supreme court is weighing whether to legalize same-sex unions.
Some Republican lawmakers in Washington are calling for a constitutional amendment that would ban gay marriages nationwide.
Earlier this month, a top German cardinal condemned Germany's same-sex marriage law after it was upheld by the country's supreme court, calling it a blow to the family.
"Now the associations of homosexuals have a potent arm to obtain further concessions on the road toward full equality with married couples, including the right to adoption," Cardinal Karl Lehman complained in a Vatican Radio interview.
The Vatican is particularly worried about the waning influence of the church in Europe. Drafters of a proposed constitution for the European Union ignored Vatican requests to include explicit mention of Europe's Christian roots.
On Sunday, the pope lamented that the church's message was being watered down in Europe, decrying the spread of a "vague and little-demanding religious sentiment, which could become agnosticism and practical atheism."
Vatican officials said the document-12 pages long and available in seven languages-is devoted entirely to the issue of same-sex marriages.
A leading gay activist in Italy, Franco Grillini, who is a member of parliament, condemned the Vatican's position as "another intrusion into a country's affairs."
He charged that the Vatican operated with a particularly heavy hand in Italy and several other predominantly Catholic countries in Europe, depriving gays of rights guaranteed elsewhere.




So what's the verdict? Should there be an all gay school?? Should people in same sex unions have the same benefits as heterosexual married couples??

The_Conductor

Only two votes so far?

Shane

Velvet Vocals

So After reading the thought provoking article ....


I've been thinking surprisingly enough....
And I've come up with a few questions I'd like to post.......

Do you think that Homosexuality in general is eroding the moral fabric of society?
Not just having an all gay school but just people accepting homosexuals?

The thought behind this question is that if you think back 10, 15 or 20 years ago and what people thought about homosexuals then?? People were imprisoned for it, but now you can marry someone of same sex and if people don't think it's right then they are bigots. But what if it was someone from the same family? what if a brother and sister or brother and brother wanted to marry or live together? Is that ok? No??? Why not? in 15 or 20 years time will it be ok??

What if a 30 year old man wants to be with a 13 year old girl? Is that wrong? Is it ok if they are in love?? What will our attitudes to this be in 10 or 20 years time

davej

Shouldn't this be in humanities? I mean unless you have a personal issue / experience related to the article you posted ?

Anyway...

One of the things I would be wary of with an all gay school is that it may become a target for attacks etc..

Another problem is that teenagers are often very mixed up, they may think they are gay and then realise they aren't 6 months later. It's not as if you can go to an all girl school and realise 6 months later that you're male !


davej

patch

I would suspect that if a minority has a desire to be more openly accepted, opening a private school could be considered a step backwards.

As with most things, I don't have any problem with gays etc., apart from those who are overtly close in public, and wonder why some people are miffed.

I don't really see the point of your questions on paedophiles and incest ..... not really the same ballpark, these are a sickness( I suppose), being gay isn't.

Velvet Vocals

But that is my point... a few years ago being gay was considered a sickness and now it isn't, so in the future what wont either???

patch

Nah.......Being gay was always supported by at least a minority, as people were inclined to learn more about it, views and opinions softened.

I really could never see a time when the general opinion towards sex offenders in any way relaxes.

The_Conductor

Hmmm-
true. But even if it was supported by a minority, does not mean that the greater society have to accept it or approve of it.
Book you might like to read- Forever War by John Haldermann, it explores changing attitudes to a range of different issues. The follow-up book developes on it somewhat- aptly enough "Forever Peace".
Does pose an interesting question though.

Re: 30 year old guy and a 13 year old girl.
Society will always condemn a relationship along those lines. At that age, regardless of what she professes, she cannot be fully emotionally developed, or know the consequences of what she is doing. It is only right for that situation to be condemned fully.

Attitudes do not change that fundamentally over time- we will still have the same impressions of situations in times to come.

Mercury_Tilt

This post has been deleted.

Mercury_Tilt

This post has been deleted.

smiles

Humanities TBH.

<< Fio >>

Typedef

No. What for?

To instutionalise segragation and foster polorisation based intolerance in society?
I don't think so somehow.

If anything, secular, multi-ethnic, multi-racial, multi-religion and multi-sexual orientation schooling should be mandatory, becaue it promotes tolerance and acceptance of diversity of opinion, rather then self-righteous exclusionary based society structures.

In conclusion "four legs, good, two legs bad" & "we've always been at war with EastAsia".

simu

This idea is completely ridiculous.

Instead of segregation, people should start trying to stamp out the homophobic attitudes that are prevalent in ordinary schools.

Shinji

Do you think that Homosexuality in general is eroding the moral fabric of society?

Absolutely.

However, given that the "moral fabric" of our wonderful western society has mostly been based on sticking your nose into other people's business and condemning them for leading their lives in a way that's one iota different from the accepted, but utterly ridiculous, "norm"....

That's not a bad thing. The "moral fabric" sucked. The fact that the further acceptance of homosexuality - along with countless other things - is tearing that fabric up and remaking it, is no bad thing at all.


(Oh, as for the school? Utter nonsense, of the "only in America" variety. Segregation is NOT the cure to discrimination - it is the CAUSE.)

The_Conductor

Mercury_Tilt

-I was not delibertly picking 13 as an arbitrary age and stating that its wrong for a 13 year old girl to go out with a 30 year old guy. It doesn't matter how old you look, or what other people think of you- its who you actually are, how you feel about situations, whether you feel you are emotionally up to situations, whatever they may be.

In my personal opinion, a thirteen year old is unlikely to know what she really wants in a situation, we've all been thirteen, and I for one never want to be that age again. Teenagers have a totally different perspective on life. Thats not to say there is anything wrong with their perspective, hell, its great to have different perspectives, the world would be a terribly boring place without them.

It is my personal opinion that should a 30 year old guy have the opportunity to go out with a 13 year old girl that in all likelihood the situation could be easily misinterpreted, abused, misunderstood by both parties etc.

Clintons Cat

To be honest if i had a child and they were getting bullied at school for their sexuality/colour/religion/disability and the caveat being the school they were in failed to address the situation in an adequate manner.#1 Then having an alternative place with a proven educational record including exam results would be a better alternative to sending them to a school where they were likely to be unhappy,underachieve and get the crap kicked out of them on a daily basis.

Of course in an ideal world,schools would all have strong anti bullying codes of conduct and everybody would Obey The Rules.
Life is not like that and why shouldn't a parent do what is best for their own child,If that means segragation then screw it,just the other week a 11 year old kid killed himself because he couldnt face the bullying because he was different.Wouldnt he have been better off amongst other gifted kids who shared his values and aspirations rather than in some bog standard comprehensive That failed to protect him..







Footnote #1 though in my opinion and experience,by the time the authorities have been gotten involved it would probally be to late to sit the bullies down and explain that picking on people is naughty,things have deterated beyond that point.)

<edited to remove gender specifics>

Clintons Cat

Segregation is NOT the cure to discrimination - it is the CAUSE.

No a society which openly discriminates against a section of society is more to blame for the social injustices it causes.Because It legitimises Bullying.
Segregation is a symptom of an intollerant society not the cause.Until the fundamental injustices in society are tackled such as the prohibition on same sex marraige,inequalities in wills and probate and tennancy agreements then forcing kids to attend schools with a problem with homophobic bullying is counter productive.

Bush speaks out against Same Sex Marraige.
Here

Vatican Speaks out against Same Sex Marraige
Here

patch

Are people suggesting that gay/potentially gay kids are less likely to bully?

I would suggest that even in their new eutopian school, the same type of problems will resurface given time. Such is society.

Unless of course your suggesting gay's are above all the usual perils of interacting with others......

Clintons Cat

I dont think anyone here has suggested that patch.

However i would speculate that a school set up to tackle homophobic bullying would be more sensitively attuned to other types of bullying and would be more effective at eradicating bullying through better codes of practice.

Whether or not that would be the case I doubt the result would be some darwinian/lord of the flies scenario where the Gay Kids,free from societal norms burn down the school and start stoning the Crippled Kids.

Personally I think people who think that bullying is some way "character building" or teaches vital human interpersonal skills are deluding themselves.

Typedef

Originally posted by Clintons Cat
Segregation is a symptom of an intollerant society not the cause.Until the fundamental injustices in society are tackled such as the prohibition on same sex marraige,inequalities in wills and probate and tennancy agreements then forcing kids to attend schools with a problem with homophobic bullying is counter productiv

That's a bit of the tail wagging the dog I think.

How do you change an attitude to something, if you put that thing out of sight, of those who would cause affront to it?

The affront still exists, and all that has happened is that you have done is sidelined the issue.

Clintons Cat

I fundamentaly disagree,What purpose does it serve to make an eleven year old child a target of queer-bashers and verbal abuse?

Adults are protected from physical assault and verbal abuse by the law,why should it be acceptable to dismiss physical assault by minors as bullying,oh wait i forget its because Minors dont know the difference between right and wrong
Well excuse me if i wouldnt want my kid to have to go through hell,whilst the rest of his class catch up.

patch

Originally posted by Clintons Cat

Well excuse me if i wouldnt want my kid to have to go through hell,whilst the rest of his class catch up.

I can well see your point, but surely it would make more sense all round, if the (I'm sure) huge amount of money spent was used to try and educate the masses?

I mean it must, at this stage, be a minority who would go out of their way to single out people.

Is it not the aim of gay people to accepted fully into society?
-to my mind this 'secret school' seems to fly in the face of any progress made thus far.

Lemming

Whilst I am not gay, nor ever was, I was bullied at school. For three years in Primary school, and then for three years (on and off) in Secondary school.
Mental AND physical. In primary school it was so severe that my arm was broken once. Every break time, about 20 kids would corner me and beat the living sh*t out of me. Then continue to taunt me through classes.

At the time, the school was run by the ** ** ***** brothers, so many of the teachers were less than useless in dealing with the problem.

Segregating these kids is A-S-K-I-N-G for very bad consequences which may or may not be immediate in their unfolding. They will be shielded from the fact that not everybody will like you, for whatever reason, and therefore never confront such a mindset until they have developed into young adults. Being homosexual stirs VERY strong reactions in some people which makes this even more serious than just a "I don't like you 'cause I don't"issue.

The other kids will never deal with anyone other than "normal" and so be even more zealous in persecuting those who are "different" now and in later life.

Further, if they get bullied out of school in their local society, who's there to try and deal with it? The parents? ....

"Your son/daughter beats mine up. Make him stop"

"HAHAHAHA. F*cking wimp of a kid. P*ss off"
or
"My son/daughter would never do that. Prove it."


To tie what I said about my own past, and what I'm sayign about this new shcool is this ....

The reason why the kids stopped bullying me after 4th class in primary was because
a) I stood up to them and battered the living sh*t out of two of them one day
b)They finally understood that I was only "different" to them because I was more intelligent than them.

Rolo Tomasi

Further isolation is hardly a solution to a problem of this nature. Very well students of the school will not face the bullying they were subjected to before but what about on school trips and outside of school hours, lunch times outside of school grounds. Can they be shielded completely from these taunts?

DapperGent

All things considered I think it's a bloody stupid idea.

My own time in school was really the far side of nasty. Moving to Navan after spending your whole life in Africa does a culture clash make, inherent abrasiveness didn't help either I suppose.

I would have done anything to get out of there at the time but in a way I'm glad I didn't. It was a baptism of fire into society, reality and most importantly for me: Ireland.

I wish my school had been better run, I wish teachers had given a flying fuck, I wish there had been no daily ritual of spirit crushing and potential sapping bullying of so many poor lads.

But good jesus fuck segregation? Special schools for the different? What kind of society are we to have then? Are we to always let the most intolerant element of our society dictate?

More importantly what about the mainstream schools? What kind of vitality are they to have with diversity removed from them?

I shudder to think of quantities godawful shitheads they would they produce then.

MiCr0

i can't believe that this might happen.
why try to further isolate children who enough problems with society.

imagine the people who try to stop kids from going to schools up the north by blocking roads having a go at this school????

imo - this seems to be a very misguided idea.

would straight children be allowed to attend?
what different things should they teach - that they are different thats why they go to a different school?
that its better to be gay??

BuffyBot

Just to be awkward like

Many people are focusing on the exclusion and isolation angles - what about the support that could be recieved in this environment after a terrible time in another school? The feeling of safety in numbers? The knowledge that you can most likely freely express who you are without fear of rejection or worse (physical assult) etc?

Clintons Cat

Many people are focusing on the exclusion and isolation angles - what about the support that could be recieved in this environment after a terrible time in another school? The feeling of safety in numbers? The knowledge that you can most likely freely express who you are without fear of rejection or worse (physical assult)

spot on the target there,Some people seem to be of the view that school should be some kind of baptism of fire or rite of passage,how about the important stuff in life like passing exams,being able to study in a safe enviroment?

patch

People have to face their problems at some point. Wrapping anybody up in cotton wool prepares them for nothing.

Fair enough they'll have time to study etc., But what happens when they get a blast of reality once they step out of 'the compound'?

Everybody has some kind of crap to deal with, all through life. I would think that it's overcoming difficulties which shapes us, as opposed to how much quiet study time we get.

Lemming

Originally posted by Clintons Cat
spot on the target there,Some people seem to be of the view that school should be some kind of baptism of fire or rite of passage,how about the important stuff in life like passing exams,being able to study in a safe enviroment?

Lets get one thing straight .... I am not equating school to a "baptism of fire" or any such bullsh*t notion that you have to overcome some obstacle in order to become a human being.

Which is ultimately what this is all about ... learning to live within society. The most formative years of your life are within childhood/teenage years. Whatever about shielding these kids, they will eventually have to rejoin society outside of the walls of their "little haven". And it will not be forgiving. It will not allow them 6 years to catch up with how to interact and deal with others who are "different" to them.

What if "different" people are looked down upon by these kids? What if these kids shun all else for "their kind"?

Further ... what happens with your CV? Have you ever thought about that? Some people don't like homosexuals. It's that simple. Some people are just w*nkers. Your sexual preference should have no place on your CV, yet here it's part and parcel with the education that you receive?

have you considered that people are bullied for things OTHER than their sexuality more often than not? I'm not gay. Why was I bullied? Violently & psychologically too I might add. I haven't become a gibbering wreck or a basket case? (I think anyway ... )

Is there some clause somewhere written into the human genome which says that gay people are more deserving treatment than non-gay people at the end of the day? WHy arent' we creating schools for the nerdy freckled kids with glasses, etc? What kind of message are you sending to the kids? That they are somehow different from society at large. How is that going to help them?

OH .. and that's ANOTHER thing. A sexually oriented school. Who wants to tell me what's wrong with that picture?

Academic learning and sexual preference have no business together, outside of sex.ed.

B*llocks!!! The whole idea, misguided and well meaning though it is, stinks to high heaven and will only be crippling these children for life.

My apologies if my opinion on this matter seems strong to the point of forceful, but I have a deep hatred fo the 'b' word and everything it stands for. I want no child to experience what I did, yet at the same time I do not want to seem them crippled further by people who blindly think they are doing the right thing.

Clintons Cat

Right lets back up and reveiw the facts.

Harvey Milk School has been open since 1984 and has an open admissions policy welcomes applications from all sections of the community.

Its students have a 95% graduation pass rate and 60% are addmitted into college,thats a pretty good acedemic record for an inner city high school.
The schools has an excellent reputation and good working relationship with local employers who participate in vocational placement programs.


Far from churning out social mis-fits it seems to be turning out young succesful adults with good future prospects and who are both comfortable with themselves and with others.

So the kids are happy,safe,dont feel estranged from their peers and have a good education and excellent employment prospects


Best shut it down quick,its what would be best for them.

Catsmokinpot

the point of our society is to allow everyone equal opportunity to treat eachother equally and to bring people together in a community putting people into an "all gay" school is wrong it promotes segregation and is bringing us back to square one even if you do put people in to an all gay school this will not stop bullying or prejudice.

its pretty much the same as racism.

up untill the 50s they had all black and all white schools and they abolished them because they were a rediculous idea. why is an all gay school any different?

me and a friend of mine were in a park one day and he spotted a black kid playing with some white kids and he said isnt that great to see and i said to him wouldnt it be even better if we didnt even notice that fact.

were so busy separating eachother and fighting with eachother we are unable to forget our differences even when we try our hardest

Chaos-Engine

Originally posted by Catsmokinpot
the point of our society is to allow everyone equal opportunity to treat eachother equally and to bring people together in a community putting people into an "all gay" school is wrong it promotes segregation and is bringing us back to square one even if you do put people in to an all gay school this will not stop bullying or prejudice.

were so busy separating eachother and fighting with eachother we are unable to forget our differences even when we try our hardest

I think you make a very important point.
America has always strived to be taken as a multi-cultural and accepting society but by its celebration of prejudice via what i would coin
Positive Discrimination it simply creates a culture of PC.

The point that many of us our different and we should live together in our differences. IN the EU Draft Constitution the motto of the EU is:

"United in its Diversity"

This I feel is an excellent starting point for Europe as opposed to just

"All men our equal"

which dilutes ppls culures and diversities which has created the American Cultural Identity

pro_gnostic_8

Originally posted by Clintons Cat

Harvey Milk School has been open since 1984 and has an open admissions policy welcomes applications from all sections of the community.

Its students have a 95% graduation pass rate and 60% are addmitted into college,thats a pretty good acedemic record for an inner city high school.

Well, it's a private institution in Greenwich Village, Manhattan. Hardly your average Bronx inner city high school.

Was the city correct in injecting $2m into Harvey Milk (making it America's first publicly funded school for gays and lesbians) rather than assisting disadvantaged Hispanic and Black schools?

Should public funding be used to segregate children? And is this funding maybe a discrimination against heterosexuals in schools in greater need of financial assistance?