Irish Motorways Qs

Seth Brundle

Can someone please explain to me what the wire fencing is for on Irish Motorways.
I heard that it is used to help the truck-stopper hedges grow but surely they could manage to grow without it (and many places dont have the hedge). Anyone care to shed some light?

Actually while I am on, what dumb f*ck came up with the idea of placing bright flashing safety warnings on the side of the M50? Driving past the other night I noticed myself spending more time reading the feckin thing than concentrating on the road - not the safest if you are driving at 70mph.

mike65

The chicken wire is to give the illusion of the NRA protecting the motoring public!

There is no such thing as a truck stopper hedge!

Armco barriers is what is needed on both external sides and down the centre on every last metre of motorway.

Mike.

Chimaera

My guess is that the wire fencing is to stop people/animals wandering on to the motorway from the surrounding countryside. It'd be rather nasty to hit a wandering cow at 70mph :eek:

seamus

Originally posted by Chimaera
My guess is that the wire fencing is to stop people/animals wandering on to the motorway from the surrounding countryside. It'd be rather nasty to hit a wandering cow at 70mph :eek:

It's not exactly effective. I constantly see braindead fools trying to cross the M50 on foot. It's a tad harder to judge how much time you have to cross 2 lanes when there's constant traffic travelling > 50mph :rolleyes:

I agree with mike. There should be barriers all the way up either side of the motorway. I'd shudder to think what would happen if a 40-footer blasted through the hedges at 65mph into oncoming traffic. They should also be bike-safe barriers too. I'd prefer to keep some limbs, thanks

Victor

Originally posted by kbannon
Can someone please explain to me what the wire fencing is for on Irish Motorways.

The fence in the middle of the road is to help the hedge grow. The hedge is an anti-glare effort.

It has a secondary effect of stopping people doing u-turns (this is Ireland after all) and thrashing the hedge (or the daffodils).

On the M-1, part of the toll operators contract will be to fit crash barriers for the entire length.

Seth Brundle

Originally posted by Victor
The fence in the middle of the road is to help the hedge grow. The hedge is an anti-glare effort.

It has a secondary effect of stopping people doing u-turns (this is Ireland after all) and thrashing the hedge (or the daffodils).

I am aware from continental driving what a motorway should look like including the anti-glare aspects. The hedges along Irish motorways & dual carriageways falls far short of this reasonable feature. They simply do not prevent glare adequatley

On the M-1, part of the toll operators contract will be to fit crash barriers for the entire length.

source?

Victor

Originally posted by kbannon
I am aware from continental driving what a motorway should look like including the anti-glare aspects. The hedges along Irish motorways & dual carriageways falls far short of this reasonable feature. They simply do not prevent glare adequatley

They need to grow, I know.

Originally posted by kbannon
source?

Media somewhere.

Seth Brundle

Originally posted by Victor
They need to grow, I know.

I am aware of several stretches of the M50 where the lack of hedge is more visible than their presence.
The NRA / NTR / Govt / etc. have a policy of not using armco in places where the central strip is greater than 15m (IIRC) as they seem to believe [feckin eejits!] that a driver would suddenly manage to pull off an amazing recovery when their car goes out of control @ 70mph+. However, I would swear that certain stretches of the meridian of the M50 are not this width (certainly on the southern end from toll bridge) [I have driven quite slowly during rush hour and managed to notice this] - anyone care to comment?

Victor

The typical median on existing motorways is 9 metres (obviously variations in some places). The style of median was borrowed from the USA. Eventually they will be replaced with a 2 metre barriered mediana nd 2 x 3.5m lanes on the M50. Other motorways (M1, M4, M7) won't need upgrading quite so quickly.

Some very rural sections (e.g. Michelstown - Cahir) will start with a narrow median.

Seth Brundle

http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2003/01/03/story640509735.asp

BrianD3

the lack of barriers is a disgrace. Not only are there no barriers on most of our motorways/dual carriageways but barriers are installed in places where they make no sense whatsoever. Eg outside Enfield on the N4 (50 mph zone single carriageway) there is armco along the side of the road for a few hundred metres - then it just ends. Why? All its going to do is stop cars driving into a field/ditch at that particular point. Of course it's preferable to hit a barrier than go off into a ditch but why put barrier there when a further up the road there's the M4 motorway which has no barriers along the median (except where there's bridge supports)

I remember a horrible crash on the naas dual carriageway about ten years ago, its still one of the worst crashes i've seen. Some young guy in his parents' Merc lost control and went across the median in front of a fully laden artic carrying butter. Most of the Merc ended up flattened under the back wheels of the trailer and the whole lot burst into flames. Needless to say the car driver hadn't a chance. I always wondered if a barrier would have saved that guys life.

BrianD3

BrianD3

Actually there have been loads of crashes with people crossing over the median. These stick in my mind because a crash like that would be my worst nightmare when driving. Just off hand I can think of
-the guy in his parents' Merc on the Naas dual carriageway
-the crash on the M 50 where some young lads in Corolla crossed the median and collided with another car killing themselves and a priest
-The MG ZR which crossed the M1 and collided with a van several people dead
-the van that crossed the M1 and collided with a truck, one person dead

Those f**king hedges make it even more dangerous. At least with an open median you have good visibility to the other carriageway and *might* get early warning if a car looses control and starts crossing the median and giving you time to react But if its a big hedge you've got no visibility you're doing 70 mph in the outside lane then suddenly a car comes through the hedge doing 70 right in front of you and it happens so quickly you don't even get time to lift off the accelerator. Result: instant death for both of you.

BrianD3

ando

Originally posted by kbannon
what dumb f*ck came up with the idea of placing bright flashing safety warnings on the side of the M50?

yeah I know they are dangerous, whoever did it must be shot. Adverts are'nt allowed on motorways, but this thing is worse, flashing away at cars going by trying to get their attention ??? I mean, wtf

and the stupid thing is, I cant remember what the bloody thing says !

Seth Brundle

Arrive Alive! (if this stupid fúkin sign doesn't be the death of ya!)

unkel

Couldn't agree more with you all about the "Arrive Alive" sign. And as for the lacking of the median barriers on motorways, I seriously think the people responsible for this should be charged with criminal neglect for the accidents mentioned above and others where a vehicle passes through the median.

There are two raisons d'etre for motorways:

- speed
- safety because traffic is one-way

DMC

One thing that bugs me about Irish motorways is, why do we not have any dynamic motorway information signals and lane control displays, either on the side or above the carriageways. You know the ones shown here half way down the page.

sceptre

Originally posted by DMC
One thing that bugs me about Irish motorways is, why do we not have any dynamic motorway information signals and lane control displays, either on the side or above the carriageways.

It's be kind of useful. The closest thing we seem to have are those hour delay ahead at Kildare ones - and they seem to be updated so irregularly as to be useless

(sort of like the "Oil Spill" sign on the narrow part of the road near Croom - I started ignoring it after a week, it lived there for another two months. Signs are useless if you can't trust them as being up to date and relevant)

Seth Brundle

I remember driving on the autoroutes in France and they warned you of road works 30km ahead, 15 kn ahead, 10, 5, 2 & 1 (IIRC).
When you got to them they were similar to some of the side of the raod stuff you see here where they have a warning sige 20 feet away!

spuddy

Originally posted by kbannon
I am aware of several stretches of the M50 where the lack of hedge is more visible than their presence.
The NRA / NTR / Govt / etc. have a policy of not using armco in places where the central strip is greater than 15m (IIRC) as they seem to believe [feckin eejits!] that a driver would suddenly manage to pull off an amazing recovery when their car goes out of control @ 70mph+. However, I would swear that certain stretches of the meridian of the M50 are not this width (certainly on the southern end from toll bridge) [I have driven quite slowly during rush hour and managed to notice this] - anyone care to comment?

is that why there is the lower 60mph limit on the newest southern stretches of the M50?

Victor

Originally posted by spuddy
is that why there is the lower 60mph limit on the newest southern stretches of the M50?

Probably to get people to slow down and make an attitude adjustment after up to 100km of motorway driving.

Samson

Originally posted by spuddy
is that why there is the lower 60mph limit on the newest southern stretches of the M50?

Apparently because it's quite a twisty piece of motorway, 70MPH is deemed to be an unsafe speed.

Seth Brundle

FFS, who makes up the speed limits? The road would be good enough for much higher speeds (I have 'safely' achieved these).
I guess they are worried that someone may spin off and damage their new hedge!

jmm

I would of guessed it maybe also because that section of motorway is extremely exposed and experiences very strong cross winds (left to right as you head north) and I have seen cars blown half way into the next lane as a result.

Seth Brundle

I have never seen that on my many journeys along the hell that is our M50. If that is the case and the speed limits were kept low for that reason then would it not have made sense to have inserted some warning signs like on the M1 (@ dunleer)?

jmm

I've only noticed it on the northbound side, late evening times, of course it has to be a fairly windy day, but that section is extremely exposed. Just a thought on a possible thinking someone had when sticking a 60mph limit on that section.

Victor

Originally posted by kbannon
FFS, who makes up the speed limits? The road would be good enough for much higher speeds (I have 'safely' achieved these).
I guess they are worried that someone may spin off and damage their new hedge!

Remember laws have to be put in place to protect the general population from the stupidest 10% of the population.

spuddy

Originally posted by Victor
Probably to get people to slow down and make an attitude adjustment after up to 100km of motorway driving.

the 60 limit is unnessary, 70 can easily be achieved safely. motorways are the safest roads to drive on & given a 70mph limit because of that (infact 74.5mph/130kph when the new limits come into force)

i don't know if anyone has noticed but on one of the slip roads (can't remember where its coming from) on to the new section of the M50, it has 70mph signs to let drivers joining the motorway know what the limit is, even though its in the lower 60 zone, madness!

Ba$tard

Chimera said

My guess is that the wire fencing is to stop people/animals wandering on to the motorway from the surrounding countryside. It'd be rather nasty to hit a wandering cow at 70mph

I have never seen a wandering cow get up to 70mph ! He must have been super-fit


Well, in fairness, the M50... It is classed as a motorway, but it is so busy most of the time, that allowing 70mph on the latter stretches could cause havoc when reaching built-up traffic queues.
The domino-type or what I prefer to call the eslastic-band effect would be much more pronounced if traffic had to slow down from 70 to 30 instead of 60 to 30.
I used to cycle alot as an amateur and know this problem . It just takes a second for some rider in front to slow up a few mile/per hour to cause havoc at the back of the bunch, as each person reacts

J

mike65

Originally posted by Ba$tard
Chimera said

Well, in fairness, the M50... It is classed as a motorway, but it is so busy most of the time, that allowing 70mph on the latter stretches could cause havoc when reaching built-up traffic queues.
The domino-type or what I prefer to call the eslastic-band effect would be much more pronounced if traffic had to slow down from 70 to 30 instead of 60 to 30.
I used to cycle alot as an amateur and know this problem . It just takes a second for some rider in front to slow up a few mile/per hour to cause havoc at the back of the bunch, as each person reacts

J

The authorites on England thought likewise with the M25 and so lowered the speed limits by 10 mph on certain sections, apparently it speeded up progress quite well as traffic braked less.

Mike.

Silent Bob

Originally posted by jmm
I've only noticed it on the northbound side, late evening times, of course it has to be a fairly windy day, but that section is extremely exposed. Just a thought on a possible thinking someone had when sticking a 60mph limit on that section.

Well in that case they're probably bad drivers.

Generally the only reason I use the M50 is to get to the Broadmeadows from Ballinteer to go windsurfing.

This happens on the days when it is windiest and I have a load of gear on the roof.

I have noticed the effect of the crosswinds but they've never been able to move the car more than a foot or two at either the legal speed or 70mph (before points).

Big trucks on the other hand would be effected quite a bit, but of course they wouldn't be driving that fast as their speed limit is 50 :rolleyes:

rcunning03

(infact 74.5mph/130kph when the new limits come into force)

130kmh is that official now ?

DMC

Not now, its still in discussion. Something Famous Seamus has yet to annouce publically. When the new kph signs come in, it'll happen.

Morpheus

ok this concerns the new motorway on the stretch from balbriggan to dublin.

What gives bloody northern drivers the right to blast by me at 80+ mph when everyone else is doing 70?? to flash me when im overtaking someone whos doing under 70 simply because i wont speed up and match their superfast speed? All that makes me do is slow down and match the cars speed on the slow lane to piss em off more.

The majority of the are a bunch of ignorant wa*kers, a few do obey the republics speed limits but most dont give a f*ck.

Why are there a lot of garda sideings along the road and not one Garda car has been seen on them yet?

Where are the speed cameras???

Where the HELL are the median ammco barriers?? the sides are barriered but not the middle? wheres the sense in that??

Ive seen skidmarks into the middle of the motorway already and its only in place about a month ffs.

a_ominous

from jmm

I've only noticed it on the northbound side, late evening times, of course it has to be a fairly windy day, but that section is extremely exposed. Just a thought on a possible thinking someone had when sticking a 60mph limit on that section.

Perhaps they should have taken the climatic conditions into account when designing the road in the first place. Why bother spending huge amounts on building a road to motorway specification if it cannot be used at motorway speeds? So basically we've got a bloody expensive horsetrack.

AFAIK, for a road to be graded as motorway, there is a different road surface. It has to reach a higher spec. I remembed some news item last year about low grade asphalt suitable for 30mph speeds used on 40mph bypasses just opened. So now, the roads have to be dug up and relaid! WTF.

Chimaera

Going back to the original topic of this thread, another good reason for having hedges in the median on motorways and dual carriageways is to shield drivers from the headlights of cars going the other way.

Travelling at 70mph or more really requires the use of full headlights, which could make life difficult for drivers coming against you, even if they are on the other side of the median.

And in case you're wondering where this came from, it occurred to me last night while travelling along the dual carriageway from Adare to Limerick.

Silent Bob

Originally posted by Chimaera
Travelling at 70mph or more really requires the use of full headlights, which could make life difficult for drivers coming against you, even if they are on the other side of the median.

If you insist on driving at 70 down unlit roads perhaps.

On a well-lit motorway you cause an annoyance to everybody in front of you and anyone who can see you coming from the other direction for zero increase in visibility.

Gerry

Originally posted by Chimaera
Going back to the original topic of this thread, another good reason for having hedges in the median on motorways and dual carriageways is to shield drivers from the headlights of cars going the other way.

Blocking headlights is a good idea, but as someone else said earlier, the trees won't stop a car coming across. Best thing would be something which absorbs the energy from the impact of the car, which doesn't bounce the car across the road. This is what our stupidly high vrt and road tax should be spent on.

Originally posted by Chimaera
Travelling at 70mph or more really requires the use of full headlights, which could make life difficult for drivers coming against you, even if they are on the other side of the median.
[/B]

As Silent Bob said, if someone comes the other way at 70 with fullbeams, and you are doing 70 also, how does this help anything? On a normal national road with 1 lane each way, how do you manage when a car comes towards you? Keep the full beams on?

Victor

Originally posted by spuddy
the 60 limit is unnessary, 70 can easily be achieved safely. motorways are the safest roads to drive on & given a 70mph limit because of that (infact 74.5mph/130kph when the new limits come into force)

Will you also insist on doing 70 in the Port Access Tunnel and on junction 3 of the M50 (where it meets the M1)?

Silent Bob

Originally posted by Victor
Will you also insist on doing 70 in the Port Access Tunnel and on junction 3 of the M50 (where it meets the M1)?

To be fair to the guy he did say that 70 could be achieved safely (with reference to the only 60 zone of the M50).

And you really do have to get up to speed to join the M1 from the M50 if traffic is moving on the M1.

Victor

Originally posted by Silent Bob
And you really do have to get up to speed to join the M1 from the M50 if traffic is moving on the M1.

What if the lights are red on the roundabout?

Capt'n Midnight

40mph is aparrently the speed at which you can get most traffic on a road - when you get faster the gaps increase so the overall throughput drops...

Still upset at the toll bridge - you go from speeding up to keep up with the traffic to jamming on when you get near it - can't keep a gap 'cos some muppet will cut in in front - especially if traffic in thier lane slows...

the bit when heading northbound and leaving on to the Lucan road - one minute you are doing 70mph on a two lane road - the next 40mph on a four lane one.... - rumble strips or a 50mph fade in could be handy... (oh yeah it's dangerous to do 40mph on the Lucan road - loads of undertakers - don't they know it is illegal?)

Heard somewhere that in the original spec for the toll bridge contract that the were supposed to let cars through if the queue got to 70 yards !

Also anyone know when the new bridge will no longer be tolled - are they getting an extension on the original contract ?

Gerry

Oh they'll keep tolling it forever. Can't remember which one of the bridges is being doubled up, but I'm sure they'll claim that they need to keep tolling the other bridges to pay for it. Typical Irish rip-off.

Victor

Crash barriers on way for full length of longest motorway after 'chicken wire' safety concerns
From:The Irish Independent
Thursday, 7th August, 2003
Elaine Keogh

CRASH barriers are to be installed on the full length of the country's longest motorway - the M1 from Dublin to the border.

The National Roads Authority will start installing the barriers on the central reservation by the end of the year.

NRA policy is to instal barriers anywhere where the central median is less than 15 metres wide.

Where it is more than 15 metres wide, the central reservation is divided by hedging and shrubs.

When first planted these are supported by wire - giving rise to criticism that the only barrier to stop a car careering across the motorway is "chicken wire".

Yesterday the NRA denied that it had changed its policy in respect of the M1.

The roads authority said it had intended to instal barriers on the M1 as part of the contract for the new Dundalk western by-pass. But that development has been delayed.

The successful bidder for the contract - a public/private partnership - will not now be announced until the end of the year.

According to the NRA's head of corporate affairs, Michael Egan, the delays in getting the motorway scheme off the ground "concerned the authority" and it was decided to "uncouple" the crash barriers from the rest of the contract.

Money earmarked to be spent on the Drogheda western by-pass this year will now instead be put towards the new safety measure.

"This is not a U-turn by the NRA," said Mr Egan. "We were genuinely concerned about the time factor involved." The roads authority is always reviewing road safety, he added.

Garda Inspector Gerry O'Brien of Louth/Meath traffic corps, who previously criticised use of "chicken-wire" in the central reservation, welcomed the news.

"Any central reservation barrier will not save you but in the event of you losing control it will prevent you entering the other carriageway," he commented.

The best safety measure remains "a person driving with proper care and attention," the roads authority chief said.

parsi

Originally posted by kbannon

Actually while I am on, what dumb f*ck came up with the idea of placing bright flashing safety warnings on the side of the M50? Driving past the other night I noticed myself spending more time reading the feckin thing than concentrating on the road - not the safest if you are driving at 70mph.

When Cork got City of Culture 2005 they changed all those flashing signs to give speed wantings and then "Welcome to Cork City of CUlture 2005" - this takes up 2 screens.

The signs I have seen are at the Commons Road & Airport Hill - both places where trying to read the signs will distract you from the speedtraps...

mike65

On Liveline yesterday a woman related her horror story on the M50 as she lost control and went right across the median and into the oncomming traffic she was lucky as was the guy she hit as the road was quiet and she got just far enough across to avoid a direct frontal smash, only side-on-side scraping damage down the passenger sides...

Mike.

Lennoxschips

If only they had invested all that motorway money in public transport, Dublin would be the investment capital of Europe and we wouldn't have all these new traffic jams. I guess pissing money away on pointless roads is fun when you are a minister and assures votes in the short term.

Seth Brundle

Public transport is not a full solution!
It may ease pressures off the roads to a certain extent but will not always be an option

skipn_easy

Morphéus said
What gives bloody northern drivers the right to blast by me at 80+ mph when everyone else is doing 70?? to flash me when im overtaking someone whos doing under 70 simply because i wont speed up and match their superfast speed? All that makes me do is slow down and match the cars speed on the slow lane to piss em off more.

Everyone else is doing 70? Come off it! The republic drivers are hardly saints when it comes to speeding, I wouldn't say that northern drivers were any worse to be fair. I do agree that its annoying when you're overtaking some one and somebody comes up doing 10 or 20 over the limit, flashing his lights and trying to get you to move out of the way. Its no good pissing them off though as it doesn't help and might lead to an accident. Just hope they caught by the speed cameras sometime.

spuddy

Originally posted by Silent Bob
To be fair to the guy he did say that 70 could be achieved safely (with reference to the only 60 zone of the M50).

thanks Silent Bob

of course i'm not advocating speeding, the point i was making only refered to that one stretch of motorway. i'm not the only one either who has problems with certain limits, seamus himself has publically admitted that he thinks the 40 limit on the stillorgan dual carrageway is too low as well. hopefully when the km limits come in we'll get consistency (thou' this is ireland so i wont hold my breath!).

i am vehemently opposed to speeding in conditions where it is dangerous to do so. i live on a rural road, narrow & with many blind bends. you would not believe the number of people who race around, doing anything up to 50/60. these people seem to have no clue that if they met somebody walking & had to swerve to avoid them, they could plough right into on coming traffic. i cannot count the number of near misses i've had with people flying out in the middle of the road after taking a corner too fast.

anyway rant over, hope i've made clear i do not condone speed, while i dont like the fact that it is largely blamed for the number of road deaths in this country (instead of addressing the problem at source, ie poor driver training & the terrible state of some of our roads) nonetheless, certain speed limits are set too low, they should always be set in accordance to the type of road they limit.

Praetorian

Originally posted by Wyvern
Everyone else is doing 70? Come off it! The republic drivers are hardly saints when it comes to speeding, I wouldn't say that northern drivers were any worse to be fair. I do agree that its annoying when you're overtaking some one and somebody comes up doing 10 or 20 over the limit, flashing his lights and trying to get you to move out of the way. Its no good pissing them off though as it doesn't help and might lead to an accident. Just hope they caught by the speed cameras sometime.

I drive on the N1 twice a day. The northern drivers on average drive quicker than the southern drivers. There is no doubt in my mind about that. I think they know they are more likely to get away with it because the Garda tend to ignore them. Maybe there is too much paper work involved. I've certainly never seen a northern car pulled over in the 3 years I've worked in Dublin.

I've noticed that the average speed in the slow lane in the evening is about 70mph, and about 80mph in the fast lane. It's safe and should be legal.

What should be illegal is the ridiculous 60 mph speed limit on the Naul road. It's a death trap. The road is in a shambles, and the recent attempt to repair it by the Co Co is laughable.

Mr. Fancypants

Originally posted by Praetorian
I drive on the N1 twice a day. The northern drivers on average drive quicker than the southern drivers. There is no doubt in my mind about that. I think they know they are more likely to get away with it because the Garda tend to ignore them. Maybe there is too much paper work involved. I've certainly never seen a northern car pulled over in the 3 years I've worked in Dublin.

I've noticed that the average speed in the slow lane in the evening is about 70mph, and about 80mph in the fast lane. It's safe and should be legal.

I agree with you about the Northern Reg cars. Im a field engineer so i see a lot of it on the roads. However, just to pick you up on one point. There are no fast lanes on our mototways, only overtaking lanes. You should only be in the overtaking lane when you are overtaking somebody.