The Bible - Inspired by the word of God or just a load of old rot?

McGinty

At the moment I am doing a bible study with some collegues, many years ago some one once told me that they thought that the bible was used as a means of scaring children to be good. Personally I beleive that the words written in the bible are inspired of God, in that He used his Holy spirit through the writers to write the bible.

To me there are many reasons why I beleive the scriptures are God inspired. To start with, if one is to look at the book of Genesis, espicially in relation to the creation of the Heavens and Earth. The creation of Earth follows in the exact way as proven by scientists. I don't believe that the world was literally created in six days, and then God took a rest on the seventh day, but if one looks at the big bang theory and the subsequent events, and then reads Genesis, you can read that the events that follow exactly in the same way. How could the writer of Genesis have known this, 3500 years ago, they did not have the knowledge that we have now.

Typedef

Not meaning to cause affront to your beliefs, but, the bible is so riddled with etheral hocus pocus, that is not evidenced in the real world, that it can't be taken seriously for one second, by any sort of rationaly minded entity.

Sure, it's philosophy may appeal to you, but philosophy ! = theology.
In theological terms the bible is a big fat lie, sorry, but, it is, science disagrees with the bible on exponential levels.

On the philosophical level, I'd rather base my on personal philosophy of the world (tm) on my values, not pseudo-theological allusions, written down in some book, which is scientifically wrong and to my mind is too conservative a philosophy of life.

Adam and Eve for example. In this theological anecdote, women are in league with the devil, sex (the fruit of knowledge), is grounds for expulsion from paradise and 'God' seems to think it's cool, to set you up to break the rules, just so God can point it's finger and say.
Bad.

For me, I don't subscribe this sort of self-predicated persecution complex and sex doesn't make me feel imoral.
Mostly.

Thus on theological and philosophical grounds, I have absolutely no time for the bible. I don't like deconstructing so-called allusionary anecdotes, to extrapoliate self-serving morality or any morality. I'm old enough and wise enough to predicate a philosophy of life, without reading theological fairy tales.

gs39t

Adam and Eve for example.

Ah, now there's one of the big, obvious problems of the bible.

Adam and Eve

Adam and Eve have children.

A long, long, long line of incest and thousands of years later here we are :rolleyes:

Also, its said god created us in his own likeness. Why would god be male or female? This would indicate god was the son(daughter) of someone.

IMO, an all powerful being with laws-of-physics defying capabilities whos always been there.

Ah, come on now! :rolleyes:

Stark

probably created us in his own androgynous image and then added the extras :8

Yeah there are whole sections of the Bible which have been proven fabricated over and over again by people who study the Bible. There are also pieces which were could be true. In particular Leviticus was one of the books shot down as it was completely written based on what people at the time thought the law should be. It's the equivalent of today's law books not some word of God, yet it is the book most often quoted by Bible-bashers.

growler

load of old rot written to support a view of morality that the writer(s) subscribed to at the time, edited over the centuries to support more rules to support changing views of the church on what rules it's believers should be abiding by. Should only be stocked in the SF / Fiction sections of bookshops and libraries IMO.

Von

I like Romans 13, bits 1-6.

sanvean

Originally posted by McGinty
The creation of Earth follows in the exact way as proven by scientists

Genesis 1:3 says that God creates light and Genesis 1:14 tells of God creating the sun and the moon. Hardly scientific. Also, the moon is called one of the great lights, which isn't actually true (it's merely reflecting the light of the sun).

Personally, if the Bible was the word of God, or inspired by the spirit of God, even little mistakes like this wouldn't have surfaced. The argument that God was merely showing primitive people the origins of the world (and so on) in a language they could understand doesn't really hold up, as it would really be showing a supreme lack of belief in his creation.

Also, the whole incest thing (re adam and eve and how the hell they got descendents) is argued pretty much along the lines of the bloodline not being so muddied as it is now (as it was closer to Adam, 'perfect' man) therefore no genetic mutations arose. Not for a while anyway (the same problem crops up with Noah, although I'm not too sure how that one is argued).

Another argument against the bible being the word of god is the similarity to Enuma Elish, the Assyrian (or sumerian) creation myth, but the bible has removed all the pagan references to polytheistic deities and demons etc etc (with a couple of errors in their editing).

Should only be stocked in the SF / Fiction sections of bookshops and libraries IMO.

:rolleyes: Or, how about the religion section?

DeVore

If reading it makes you act in what YOU deam to be a "good"/"better" way, then thats good.

Read it if you like, take from it what you find applicable to your life. If that helps you, great.

I dont believe it was inspired by God or that God had a part in it beyond having a part in everything if theres such a thing as "God".

(cf. My post on the clockmaker.)

A friend of mine who's studying to be a priest and with whom I have had a number of interesting nights out on the píss has a saying "any God a human can understand is no God at all".

DeV.

mike65

Was The Bible the first fantasy fiction title....?

Mike.

popinfresh

At the moment I am doing a bible study with some collegues,

Are you studying with Jehovahs Witnesses??:(But yeah,Isn't there loads of contradictions in the bible?? I'm reckoning the bible does have inspiration from god, But the lord works in mysterious ways, and so according to him there's a few incorrect bits and pieces in there but "ah yeah, it doesn't have to be perfect, they'll get the jest of it" Like the Adam and Eve story, maybe god didn't have the heart to tell the israelites that they came from dirty stinking monkeys:p . And lets say that evolution is true, and remember you can justifyably argue otherwise, how would god express these facts through Moses, and if he did I mean it wouldn't have made sense I mean.."in the beginning there was a big fúckass explosion, and a load of crazy **** went on up in the heavens, then the earth was created, then by use of electrical charges and other hocus pocus god made bacteria (note* you people don't know what bacteria is but it's there, it's an animal so small that you can't see it, oh and there are some on you now, oh and some are able to kill you) then these bacteria had babies who had babies who had babies who were different to their parents and so on and so forth which bring us to you people.....:ninja: " I mean I dunno, perhaps genesis is a metaphor for what really happened.

McGinty

Thanks for the comments, it's given me plenty to think about, true about the whole Adam and Eve thing, I guess at the moment I have this spiritual vacum, I am just horribly confused, but some of the comments have given me something to think on. I think I am just trying to get different viewpoints. Since posting my last thread I have found an awful lot of contradictions. Plus contradictions in what I am being told, so it may be back to the drawing board. Basically I am just looking for advice, I would ask that please don't take the **** out of me as I am very confused. I should say I have tried to be an atheist, and I can't, I do genuinely believe there is a God, I just don't know what's expected of me, I want to get closer to him but I am not sure how, so I will admit that yes the people who are giving the bible study are Jehovah Witnesses, not the world's most popular religion, they have a very strict moral code, which I find difficult (nigh on impossible) to follow. For example they don't celebrate Christmas (I could live with that one, I hate it, but it wouldn't be fair on my son) they don't celebrate Easter, as in giving chocolate eggs nor birthdays, now that I would find hard and I can't see the problem with that. The whole avoidance of different types of music, some forms of entertainment, books and so forth is too hard. Then there is the blood issue, now its easy enough for me to say okay I won't accept a blood transfusion now, as I am in full health but I doubt I would be that strong when it came to crunch time, and I know, just know that I would break all rules to save my son, so I guess really that isn't the life for me, so I feel I am back to the drawing board. I do beleive that there is some powerful stuff written in the bible, where or how it came about, I don't know. I like the idea that it came from God, or that he inspired the writers, but there is some real crap stuff written in it. And yes Leviticus and to an extent Dueteronomy was stating laws for the Israelites, that is a very good point raised.

Von I read Romans 13 chapter 1 - 6, yes I can see the irony, today's politicians could quote that one at us all to keep us from moaning at them. Ah well thanks all.

Devore, your to be priest friend raised a good point, another Author I read who writes some great stuff, talks of some religions have God all neatly sewn up.

o sleep

Hmm. Jehovah's Witnesses are a very troubling area, especially if you're already involved in Bible 'study' with them. They began calling to my house a while ago, and I invited them in because I'm very interested in the whole religious debate/discussion area. I'm an atheist myself, but I thought it would be interesting to discuss their religion (as I knew little about them at the time) but it was hard, especially when I realised that they were less inclined to discussion as to stating their beliefs.

A couple of problems with their theory (there are numerous ones, but these are the ones I figured out and when I asked them, got either insufficient answers). First of all, their use of the New Testament Greek is bordering on malicious. Especially John 1:1, where they put in an indefinite article before God, so that Jesus (ie, the Word) is A god, rather than God Himself. Now, I'm no Greek scholar, but I asked a friend's father who is, and he claimed that (a) it would lead to serious problems in other translations of texts and that (b) it doesn't make sense in the whole context. Also Mttw 34 is a particularly problematic area for the Jehovah's Witnesses (Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away). When I brought that one up, they accused me of talking to their enemies, or something equally paranoid. They also gave me a text of the Bible, which had put in the word 'other' in certain places, which completely distorted the meaning of the text.

On the whole, I agree with them to a large extent, especially in their criticism of institutionalised religion, but they tend to fall in to the same trap themselves. Also, their views on rape (which is in the courts at the moment in America, I think: something along the lines of a previous belief which held that if a woman doesn't shout or protest, it's not rape) are very very dangerous. It's a difficult area, because they are very adept at convincing (see, brainwashing) people to their point of view. You can see this in their bible 'study' where they get you to read a passage from one of their books, with questions underneath. They ask you the questions, and because they're so basic, you get them right every time, and they give you praise and make you feel good about yourself. They also try an disassociate you from your family, primarily if you're a son or daughter, or if the family is obviously hostile to their presence (eg, they'll tell you that everybody will try to stop you studying with them etc etc).

If atheism doesn't work for you (ahem), then you should try and study the Bible on your own to get your own message. You shouldn't need institutionalised religion.

popinfresh

Yes my mother is one, and I was raised as one. They're very hard to argue agsinst. Basically you have to know the religion, the bible in fact, inside out before you can even think about winning an arguing with them. But still they do follow the bible closer than any other religion I can think of, so maybe it's not too bad. BTW ask them about the Daniel prophecies, now there's something of interest I have to say..

Zombrex

I think everyone needs to go back to a simpler time when the Bible was written in Latin, could only be accessed by priests and any commoner caught reading it was burned at the stake.

Christianity was doing fine till people started actually trying to understand the blasted thing.

Basically it is as much of a mess as a book that was written over 3000 years can be. You could spend your entire life studying it (and people do) and still not understand any of it. Never mind the fact lots of it contradict other parts and that a lot of the details have been lost in translations over the years. For example Moses parted the Reed Sea (a lake in northern Egypt) not the Red Sea, and Mary wasn't actually a virgin, that was a miss-translation of the Greek word meaning of-child-bearing-age.

The Bible (especially the old testament) is also pretty far from being a Good Book, which is why the bible has been used as the justification for terrible crimes, such as the persecution of different races, homosexuals and women (technically if a man rapes a woman, the man must pay the father a sum – ie buy the woman – and then has to marry the woman) … it is not really somewhere you should be going to guidance on how to be a better person.

McGinty if you believe in a god, and want to please him, I would just try and live your life in the best way you can, and try and help and contribute to society as much as you can (ie don't throw stones at kittens, help little old ladies cross roads, don't rub balloons on babies heads to watch the hair stick up - you know, the basics)

And for the love of god (pun intended) stay away for Jehovah Witnesses ... I met a few in college who basically harrashed me for days cause I made the mistake of actually listening to them for a few minutes on my door step ("take this book, we will be back to discuss it with you when you have read it" ... d'oh). If you show any interest they think they are on to a winner and just won't stop till you have to shout at them to go away.

simu

Two questions from a curious reader, McGinty:

Why are you unable to be an atheist?

Are you only interested in the Bible and Christianity or are you also investigating other theistic religions?

BuffyBot

Originally posted by DeVore
If reading it makes you act in what YOU deam to be a "good"/"better" way, then thats good.

Read it if you like, take from it what you find applicable to your life. If that helps you, great.

I dont believe it was inspired by God or that God had a part in it beyond having a part in everything if theres such a thing as "God".

I think that sums it up. I would see it more as a "guide" than the actual word of "God". It was written by people for people in their time, so of course not all of it is applicible, relevant or even acceptable today. To take it literally would be (IMHO) a little bit daft, but there are still relevant lessons in the stories it tells.

bizmark

The bible is a nice read for those unable (or unwilling) to think for themself,s and theirfore beleave the easyist option open to them

as has already been pointed out the amount of down right stupid mistakes is laughable and all the mistake,s can easly be explaned by the fact the people that wrote the bible had the education of the average 5 year old (Look at me i can read and wite follow me!!!!)

It seems to me the bible was a nice way to damage the roman empire and release jesus,s country from that said empire we have a word for that in this day and age! propaganda

Not only that but how can anyone Really dismiss all the evadence of how humans took 5 million year,s to evole ..... of how the sun/Earth/moon/galaxy was formed etc etc etc .........How can anyone be so blind!!!!

"jesus feed a large grop of people from one lofe of bread and some fish"
Ya well give me a few hours ill run out and cloan some fish and get some gentictly modifed bread for ye

feck sake

JustHalf

Crikey, there's an awful lot of bile here.

First of all, McGinty:
There's an Alpha course starting in my church at 7:30pm on September 25th. The Alpha course is a 10-session practical introduction to the Christian faith. It is designed primarily for non-churchgoers and new Christians.You can read some more details on the website. You can also discuss the Christian faith at the Christianity board (there's a link under my name to the left).

Everyone else, particulary sanvean:
The Bible is believed by all Christians to be inspired by God. Now, Christians will disagree about its perfection... I suspect many Christians will avoid saying it is imperfect as they are afraid of offending God. But the Bible is the work of God and men, and men are fallible.

The English Bible (certainly the New International Version, or NIV) is a work in progress. Sometimes when a word is found to have been mistranslated the whole meaning of the passage can be turned on its head. These errors are diminishing (as a consequence of effort) but I would be very uncomfortable in claiming that the Bible is perfect.

The Bible is full of metaphors, there is no reason to assume it is all literal truth. Up until very recently, most theologians had accepted that the book of Genesis was a folk-tale.

Wicknight:
That Christ was born to a virgin is clear from the bible, and there's a lot more than a single word confirming this -- large chunks of text hang around such words that make no sense in your alternate translation. You should read Luke 1:26-38, particularly verses 34 to 37.

Bizmark:
I think most Christians would be irritated by what your implication that Christians are stupid. Furthermore, so would readers of Tolkien and CS Lewis (both Christians), those that think Perl is a useful language (Larry Wall is a Christian), or any student of architecture or art (if you've studied art in school, you would have discovered the marvelous work created for the glory of God -- the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, the doors of the Duomo in Florence). Saying that the Bible is for those who can't think for themselves is to claim that these leaders in their field are sheep.

On the Jehovah's Witnesses:
You should read this stuff from the Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry:

• Is the Jehovah's Witness religion Christian?
• A Biblical Response to Jehovah's Witnesses
• If you are a Jehovah's Witness, please read this first
• Bad Translations of the Jehovah's Witness Bible, the New World Translation (NWT).
• The New World Translation and "Proskuneo" (worship)

oscarBravo

Originally posted by McGinty
[...] I guess at the moment I have this spiritual vacum, I am just horribly confused [...] I should say I have tried to be an atheist, and I can't, I do genuinely believe there is a God, I just don't know what's expected of me, I want to get closer to him but I am not sure how[...]

If you are a spiritual sort of person who feels there's more to the world than meets the eye, but you're disappointed by what organised religion has to offer, maybe you just need a radically different viewpoint. Read Wayne Dyer's book Manifesting Your Destiny for an interesting take on the concept of God.

You can take or leave the Manifesting concept, but I think his concept of God is more interesting than any of the traditional monotheistic approaches, and makes more sense to me personally.

simu

JustHalf, I agree that it is premature to call Christians stupid(as if the trait of stupidity were limited to them) but, on the other hand, i don't think it's a good idea to believe in something just because another person who was successful in an unrelated domain was.

I would be curious to hear why Larry Wall, Tolkien. Lewis et al. believed in this religion but i have yet to come accross an argument, even from those who dedicated their lives to thinking about such mantters, as to why, in this day and age, anyone should take Christianity seriously and treat the Bible differently from any other documents remaining from past cultures.

JustHalf

Well, CS Lewis wrote a wide variety of books on the Christian faith. I can recommend some if you'd like (I can't remember the titles now) that would fit your question.

However, the point I was making was that Bizmark is incorrect. Christians aren't Christians because they're stupid (though I'm sure there are stupid Christians, as Christians are human too), as there have been plenty of Christians who you certainly could not call dumb eejits who couldn't think for themselves.

Your first point is what any sensible person would do. Just because I think Radiohead make great music doesn't mean I have any requirement to agree with Thom Yorkes crazy politics.

McGinty

To answer some points, first of all the people doing the study are my next door neighbours, however on reflection I am seriously considering on stopping the study with them.

Simu
I beleive in God for many reasons, I personally believe He started the big bang, which in turn eventually created our Earth and starting of the evolution process. I have been unable to find an alternative reason for our creation, although from time to time I do toy with other theories, but keep coming back to God.

More importantly though and this is where I may sound a bit unclear, because it is unclear to me. I am often filled with a holy / divine feeling and I hear a small quiet voice full of wisdom and love, which when I can shut out the clutter is very wise and guides me, when I listen.

Lastly, I have had some **** things happen in my time, which could have turned out far worse and there has been a pattern of something intervening and helping me, espicially when I pray to God for help. Hence why I believe in a God. There could be some other reason for all of the above, but I will add that I choose to believe in God.

I have checked out a few new age philisophy's but found them lacking, and too far out in some aspects. I was a Catholic - but as a divorcee I no longer feel acceptable and the way the church has dealt with the whole abuse issue has put me off, I also considered being an evangilist, but it wasn't for me either.

To the others
Basically when I was offered the bible study I thought we would pick a passage from the bible, read it and then discuss it. However as has been mentioned, it is all based from the Watchtower Organisation just as it has been mentioned in these threads and also in the links you gave me Justhalf (they were invaluable reading).

My bible differs from their bible so some of the texts differ, also only snatches of bible text is covered, and some of it does not make sense. When we do a study and in answer to your question about Daniel's prophecies I asked them for further clarification, and I am still waiting, I have more questions that answers and they don't answer me really.

When I asked do they believe that God is both transcedant and immanent, they couldn't provide a proper answer, so when I started giving my belief on this matter, they looked kind of horrified, I beleive that God is both transcedent and immanent, which is based on my own experiences as above. They believe that the only way God communicates is via the bible.

Again I couldn't figure out why they had such easy questions at the end of each section, as the answers are clearly in each section, and are way too easy to answer. Also when I ask deeper questions, they look very frustrated. I asked have they ever converted Atheists, again it wasn't answered, it was just sidetracked.

Also according to their literture (Watchtower) they state that Adam and Eve were perfect in every sense and that God created everything perfectly. If that is so, then how come Eve was so easily tempted by the Snake, that doesn;t add up. I asked them again for clarification, I am still waiting.

Lastly I cannot get my head around their view, which is that God will eventually destroy the earth as we know it, then restore it to paradise and everyone will forever where there will be no sickness, no dying and no illness. To be honest, I question that, because us humans are afraid of death and so by saying, live this way and you will have eternal life on a restored earth is coping out of the whole death issue. They don't beleive we will go to heaven, only 166,000 will go to heaven to govern us on the earth. I find that very hard to believe.

It seems pretty clear to me that my best course of action is to follow my own bible study for now. Maybe something else will turn up which is better for me.

Justhalf thanks for the links they were invaluable. I don't live in Dublin so I can;'t make it there, however I will check to see if there is something more local.

ferdi

when i was younger i used to attend mass regularly...then i started listening to what they were saying and it scared the be-jesus outta me*.




*pun intended

JustHalf

McGinty, if you can provide me with the name of your closest city, I can probably hook you up with one. There are tons of Alpha courses all around the country, and there should be one close to you (presuming you live near one of the main population centres).

An Alpha course will tell you the basics of what the Christian faith is all about. You'll also be able to discuss Christianity in small groups after each session.

If you want to discuss any topic of the Christian faith, feel free to ask in the Christianity forum. There's plenty of Christians who'd be more than happy to answer any question you might have. That goes to everyone, too.

bizmark

Bizmark:
I think most Christians would be irritated by what your implication that Christians are stupid. Furthermore, so would readers of Tolkien and CS Lewis (both Christians), those that think Perl is a useful language (Larry Wall is a Christian), or any student of architecture or art (if you've studied art in school, you would have discovered the marvelous work created for the glory of God -- the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, the doors of the Duomo in Florence). Saying that the Bible is for those who can't think for themselves is to claim that these leaders in their field are sheep.

YES YES im sure those amazeing inventsions where inspired by god "cough" bull**** "cough"...................The bible IS for those unable to see blinding fact,s its amazeing how smart people can so easly dismiss the facts and bleave a story wrote by a bunch of fanitics

Those love work of art,s (which indeed they where) where made by the same people that in the name of "god" burned people at the stake.... crusaded and killed people burned book,s because they said the world was round (OH MY GOD!)...Europe was held in the Dark age,s by you lovely chrisitians....and most recently a love of young kid,s seem to have croped up.....And many MANY other crimes against humanity

Thanks for all that by the way !

isnt it wonderful when power is taken away and the true bear bones of the church is shown

skipn_easy

McGinty

I think it is great the way you are approaching your religious education in such an open-minded and intelligent manner. Religion is a personal thing and there are lots of different religions to suit different people, but some people seem to get brainwashed into certain religions without thinking about things themselves.

When it comes down to it, if a religion gives someone guidance and comfort and helps them to live a better life then that is great! As long as it isn't an aggressive religion which dictates that there be no other opinions on the matter I don't see any harm.

Personally I was raised without any religion and I was always very curious about the different types of organised religion available. I did a bit of research and didn't like what I knew about some of the major religions - so I haven't made any decision. This suits me fine, I try to live my life in the best way possible and one day I believe I will find something that suits my beliefs.

Theres no rush to find a religion, and the exploration can be very rewarding and eye-opening. Good luck in your studies!

JustHalf

So Bizmark, are you saying that Tolkien, Lewis and Wall are dumb?

Silent Bob

Originally posted by JustHalf
Larry Wall is a Christian

JustHalf, what you have just done is committed the logical fallacy known as Argumentum ad verecundiam, using admiration of a famous person to try and win support for an argument.

You can assume that Larry Wall knows what he is talking about when it comes to compilers, interpreters and PERL (this is what he is a field-leader in). That does not make him an expert on religious matters.

bizmark

no but they sure as hell are blind to simple facts.......... as was qutoed in this

The bible IS for those unable to see blinding fact,s its amazeing how smart people can so easly dismiss the facts and bleave a story wrote by a bunch of fanitics

Thankfuly where not liveing in the 1300 or i would be burned at the stake now by your beloved church for question this LOL

oh ya can you please explan why all those people where burned at the stake etc ?????? do YOU bleave i should be burned because of my question of your "god".......Do YOU bleave those pople killed by the church should of been ????? Do YOU bleave the church had a right to burn books and hold back humanity ????

all important questions can you answer them ?

(edit)

I beleive in God for many reasons, I personally believe He started the big bang, which in turn eventually created our Earth and starting of the evolution process.

UM isnt that a big logical flaw i mean jesus if it wasnt for sicence you wouldnt have a clue about the big bang ... and the chunrch keeps claming that god created earth and human,s in 7 days .....How can you bleave in such a glairing contradiction ???? that makes no sence!

skipn_easy

UM isnt that a big logical flaw i mean jesus if it wasnt for sicence you wouldnt have a clue about the big bang ... and the chunrch keeps claming that god created earth and human,s in 7 days .....How can you bleave in such a glairing contradiction ???? that makes no sence!

Religious belief doesn't have to be logical...

bizmark

well if you bleave in religon then you just proved my point ......... you follow blindly along with out really questioning the facts

if you dont ..........welcome to the ever growing club

Sangre

Bizmark, for the love of Bob, check your damn spelling and grammer before you insult people's intelligence, its making for some frustrating reading.

McGinty:
You said that you had a spiritual vacuum, if this is the case, I do not think that the Jehovah's Witnesses are for you, they seem to thrieve on this. Perhaps you should study their beliefs alone and sort out your questions before you enter a group of them, they are not the easiest to debate with.

Personally, I am an atheist, I cannot accept the fact that their is a supreme being, nor do I particularlly want to. I can of see our existence as a cruel joke....but of coarse, thats me being cynical. On the other hand, unlike most atheists I have a great respect for the Church and its work. Probably because I attend a Holy Ghost school, where I encountered some of the kindest men of my life, especially on 'retreats'.

skipn_easy

You do not have to necessarily be blind to believe in religion.

There are some things that can't be explained... logic and reason do not have the answers to everything.

JustHalf

Originally posted by Silent Bob
JustHalf, what you have just done is committed the logical fallacy known as Argumentum ad verecundiam, using admiration of a famous person to try and win support for an argument.

Not quite, for the reason below (though I have had people tell me that I should have similar political ideas to Thom Yorke because I like Radiohead's music )

Originally posted by Silent Bob
You can assume that Larry Wall knows what he is talking about when it comes to compilers, interpreters and PERL (this is what he is a field-leader in). That does not make him an expert on religious matters.

I understand that. However, Bizmark said that those who were Christians were (let's be clear on this) incapable of thinking for themselves. I countered this by examples of very smart men indeed who are Christians, who you would be very hard pressed indeed to prove dumb.

bizmark

Bizmark, for the love of Bob, check your damn spelling and grammer before you insult people's intelligence, its making for some frustrating reading.

I am not insulting peoples intelligence,s im pointing out the massive flaw,s in their religon

the simple fact is you can bleave in what you want ...... but if your bleave,s are so flawed and you cant answer simple question,s about it then how can you bleave in it ?

bizmark

oh ya can you please explan why all those people where burned at the stake etc ?????? do YOU bleave i should be burned because of my question of your "god".......Do YOU bleave those pople killed by the church should of been ????? Do YOU bleave the church had a right to burn books and hold back humanity ????

Can you answer any of those questions justhalf ?

incapable of thinking for themselves

yep ............ but i never said you or anyone else was dumb their,s a difference

Typedef

Originally posted by Wyvern
You do not have to necessarily be blind to believe in religion.

There are some things that can't be explained... logic and reason do not have the answers to everything.

Logic cannot explain gravity yet, does that mean God makes gravity happen?

No.

Once logic couldn't explain how birds flew, did that mean that birds flew from "god's" will, or from the laws of aerodynamics?

Yes, it was aerodynamics.

Academically brilliant people believing in god, is in my view, alot like academically brilliant people being nationalistic.
Ie, otherwise seemingly intelligent people, can sometimes, display, shocking characteristics or beliefs. Just because, one asserts that belief - x is stupid, doesn't mean someone who holds that belief is stupid, merely never challenged to substanciate that illogical belief, through the paradigm of logic.

God, fails, logic, simple.

In my opinion, belief in God, without evidence is probably more self delusion, then stupidity.
One 'wants' for there to be a god and an afterlife and says "Well if I'm wrong.. no harm done" and "If I'm right, then waheey".

If I'm wrong, then god will respect me as his creation with 'free will' and logic.
If I'm right, then I'm not going to waste my limited time on earth, in a church, when god doesn't actually exist anyway.

I think that for most people who 'believe' it is a case of wishful thinking, peer pressure (parents, friends), tradition and fear of the abscence of what a god means to one's life in terms of death.

Again, not trying to cause affront to anybody.

bizmark

well said Typedef

sanvean

Originally posted by JustHalf


Everyone else, particulary sanvean:

why me in particular?

The Bible is full of metaphors, there is no reason to assume it is all literal truth. Up until very recently, most theologians had accepted that the book of Genesis was a folk-tale.

I am well aware that the Bible can be read and interpreted in numerous different ways, literal being only one of them. Although I doubt the person who runs CARM (which you linked to help someone out with Jehovah's Witnesses) thinks along these lines.
I was commenting on the original posters views with my (obviously) atheist viewpoint.

Just because I think Radiohead make great music doesn't mean I have any requirement to agree with Thom Yorkes crazy politics.

Surely the politics of early Christianity (apart from the apocalyptic ones) are at least equal to Thom Yorke's 'crazy' politics. The 'scrap the debt' campaign is quite like Jesus' view that we should not accumulate wealth in any way.

bizmark: do you *really* think the bible is a nice read for those unable to think for themselves? You're dismissing huge chunks of literature, philosophy, even popular culture (and, of course, theology) which owes its existence to studying or borrowing or being influenced by the Bible. Also, try reading the King James version, perhaps the greatest work the English language has produced.

Originally posted by Bizmark] oh ya can you please explan why all those people where burned at the stake etc ?????? do YOU bleave i should be burned because of my question of your "god".......Do YOU bleave those pople killed by the church should of been ????? Do YOU bleave the church had a right to burn books and hold back humanity ????

Largely due to political reasons, although there was a prevailing attitude of religious fundamentalism around at the time (and still is in some places, see: www.carm.org and the Jehovah's Witnesses). The question here isn't what the Church has been responsible for (and in the case of the Catholic Church, being up there in importance with scripture, it has a lot to answer for. I'm not too sure of the importance of the church in protestant religion) but whether the Bible is inspired by the word of God. Very eloquent way you have of putting (irrelevant) questions to people Bizmark, btw.

skipn_easy

Originally posted by Typedef

I think that for most people who 'believe' it is a case of wishful thinking, peer pressure (parents, friends), tradition and fear of the abscence of what a god means to one's life in terms of death.

I'd agree with this point, but there are people who can question the existence of god and the evidence available and still come back to the fact that they believe there is some higher being in control, for other reasons apart from the ones above.

bizmark

the question,s are not irrelevant i want to know Justhalf,s point of view on how god wanted many people to die in horrible ways

but i know ill get the old "it wasnt god it was humans" bull

sceptre

Just FYI, BBC4 are showing two documentaries tomorrow that might be of interest: Selling Jesus (a documentary about the Jesus movie (1999) made recently) and Did Jesus Die? (digiguide listing: An investigation of the many stories surrounding the New Testament account of the Crucifixion. Historians and theologians reveal the latest theories about the events of 2,000 years ago)

Starting at 10pm and 11pm respectively. Actually the latter is on at the moment as well so I've caught the first half of it but I'm watching Spooks now. Plenty of fodder for both sides to toss into the mix - proper documentaries, not like those Graham Hancock laugh-a-minute "it was the aliens" ones.

(see Satellite forum for easily adding BBC4 to your setup for nowt if you have a dish)

Zombrex

Originally posted by JustHalf
Wicknight:
That Christ was born to a virgin is clear from the bible, and there's a lot more than a single word confirming this -- large chunks of text hang around such words that make no sense in your alternate translation. You should read Luke 1:26-38, particularly verses 34 to 37.

Okay heads up, hope you are all paying attention at the back of the class, lets begin ....

(btw CE – Common Era …. BCE - Before Common Era .. modern equivalents for BC/AD)

The earliest (as in date they were written) books of the New Testament make no reference to the virgin birth. In fact they have little to say about the birth at all! The Epistles (book I was written around 45 CE) make no mention of it. The Acts of the Apostles has little reference to the birth of Jesus at all, instead placing the "beginning" at the baptism by John.

The Virgin birth appears in Matthew over 100 years after the birth of Christ. It is widely believed that the author got the idea from the Old Testament book Isaiah in which a prophecy makes reference to Christ birth by a virgin. Except it was a mistranslation that the author read. The translation took the Hebrew word "almah" to mean virgin, when in fact it mean "woman of child bearing age." In fact the birth in Isaiah doesn't even referrer to Jesus, to have been true the child should have been born before 700 BCE.

Luke, which JustHalf uses as evidence that Mary was a virgin, was written about 150 CE, long after the orginal New Testement books which make no reference to the Vrigin Mary. By that stage the myth of the virgin birth was being widely adopted (read force upon) by Christians. The birth in Luke has little in common with the version in Matthew and the Luke version has huge amount of details never mentioned in any of the other books. As one author says “Luke piles wonder upon wonder.”

There is even some evidence (only read about this in one place so not totally sure) that Pro Virgin Birth Chirstians tried to alter versions of old Bible books to include references to the Virgin Mary.

So please don’t quote me the Bible as proof of the authenticity of the Bible.

simu

I am an atheist and I see no reason as to why a God would exist. However, I'm not here in an attempt to "convert" others to my beliefs - I am just curious about how other people think and form their beliefs.

What has always surprised me is how people seem to jump from having a belief in God to obeying the tenets of a particular religion that claims to represent the beliefs of this God. For me, the gap between believing in a supreme being and claiming to have insight into the nature of this being is an enormous gulf.

That's why I asked you, McGinty, whether you had checked out other theistic religions apart from Christian ones. I'm not just talking about new age religions - what about Judaism or Islam, for example? I think that for most Irish people who are in McGinty's situation, Christianity is a more comfortable area to explore becaues it is somewhat familiar. However, if you are looking for the religion that reflects the supreme being you believe in, it makes sense to examine all theistic religions and, now that I think of it, how can you be sure that it has communicated its will to human beings at all? Perhaps all the existing religions have gotten it wrong?

Turnip

Originally posted by JustHalf
Just because I think Radiohead make great music doesn't mean I have any requirement to agree with Thom Yorkes crazy politics.

I'm not sure what Thom Yorke's politics are exactly but they can't be any crazier than believing the load of superstitious anti-science anti-philosophy misogynous gibberish that's in the bible. Perhaps you'd like to respond to what was posted about Romans 13? I went and read it and basically it says "obey the authorities because they are chosen by god, or else die". So every lunatic despot throughout history has been chosen by god? Even Hitler? He certainly had it in for the christians' enemies, the jews, anyway. "Gott Mit Uns" indeed. And if you disagree with this then are you disputing the word of your insane god? And does that make you a heretic? I'm sorry but I cannot respect such an absurd cult which is responsible for such an outrageous litany of crimes against humanity.

Calibos

..................but its what our parents, and our parents parents believed and the same all over the world. Surely all those billions cant be wrong, their must be something in it if so many believe.............

1 Billion children believe in Santa or the local cultural equivelent.

Why..... cause mammy and daddy told them to.

With religion its mammy, daddy and the religious hierarchy of their local faiths telling them too.

We'd all be atheists if there were no pre-existing religions.

So....to answer the question.......I think the Bible is just a load of rot!

Ivan

Originally posted by Wicknight

For example Moses parted the Reed Sea (a lake in northern Egypt) not the Red Sea, and Mary wasn't actually a virgin, that was a miss-translation of the Greek word meaning of-child-bearing-age.

Lol. I think the entire Christian community may take offence to that.

heh, its one of the fundamental pillars of the religion.

Personally I think organised religion was a ploy created thousands of years ago in an attempt to "civilise" man. Basically teach people to be good simply because if they didnt they would spend an eternity in eternal damnation etc. etc.

As time went on and the leaders of organised religion realised that this wasnt going to cut it anymore they turned the whole thing around and said NO! God will love you no matter what you do, except for this, this and this. Few years later, ok God will love you no mater, except for this etc. etc.

Then all of a sudden people realised that this was a form of control, making people do what they want (see Crusades/Jihad/Sexual Abuse/Bruce Almighty {Come see our film, its about God!}/Family Planning[TM] etc. etc.)

To be honest, religion as a whole cannot work because man is flawed, period. Now if God were to come down to earth and give us His Word ever few hundred years we'd be sorted, but who knows maybe he will some day, but I wont hold my breath.

Its a nice idea and thats whats important. So long as your beliefs are your own, there is no one to criticise you or tell you what to do.

Well good luck with the whole religion thing.

Silent Bob

Originally posted by JustHalf
I understand that. However, Bizmark said that those who were Christians were (let's be clear on this) incapable of thinking for themselves. I countered this by examples of very smart men indeed who are Christians, who you would be very hard pressed indeed to prove dumb.

I think Typedef summed up how smart people can do stupid things pretty well (and yes, it is possible for someone very academically gifted to not "think for themselves" w.r.t. certain matters)

Turnip

Here's a quote from Justhalf's precious JRR Tolkien.

“My political opinions lean more and more to anarchy (philosophically understood, meaning abolition of control not whiskered men with bombs)… There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power stations.”

From here.

So this overrated charlatan was not only stupid enough to believe in the church's fairytales, even worse than that, he was also something of an anarchist and a proto hippy who thought technology and civilisation were somehow essentially "bad". Apparently everyone would be happier living in trees like elves with a life expectancy of about 30 or something.

Stupid stupid stupid.

Zombrex

Originally posted by Ivan
Lol. I think the entire Christian community may take offence to that.

heh, its one of the fundamental pillars of the religion.

Yeah well, as Hitler once said -
Propaganda must not serve the truth, especially as it might bring out something favorable for the opponent.

And he should know.

I think McGinty should stay well clear of anything that says "this is your beliefs ... now go follow them!"

JustHalf

Originally posted by bizmark
oh ya can you please explan why all those people where burned at the stake etc ?????? do YOU bleave i should be burned because of my question of your "god".......Do YOU bleave those pople killed by the church should of been ????? Do YOU bleave the church had a right to burn books and hold back humanity ????

Hardly, and I'm insulted by you even asking me (which I'm certain was the intention).

Originally posted by bizmark
yep ............ but i never said you or anyone else was dumb their,s a difference

Not really. Having one's critical reasoning abilities impaired to the point where one cannot think for oneself is being dumb.