Joint responsibility

dahamsta

Anyone know what's involved in assuming joint responsibility for a child in Ireland, or if anything specific is actually needed? I'm going to get my name added to my kid's birth cert shortly - long story, don't ask - but my sister, who dealt with this in the UK, reckons I need to get witnessed docs and the like to assume responsibility for things like parental consent. Any hints and tips for me please?

adam

Nevyn

If you are not married to the mother of you child you do not have Guardianship rights or Custody rights to that child. Having your name on the childs birth cert is the first step to achieving this.

Guardianship means that any of the big decisions that have to be made for that child you have an input on ie what school they go to and you are medical guardian who can legally sign consent forms if the need arises.

Joint Custody is still rare and fathers having main custody is rarer.
Usually if you are not living with the mother of the child and you are not married
She will have totally custody of the child until you apply to the courts otherwise.

www.solo.ie has lots of info and links on this type of

dahamsta

The title of the thread should have read "parental responsibility", or at least that's what it's call in the UK.

Originally posted by Thaed
Usually if you are not living with the mother of the child and you are not married She will have totally custody of the child until you apply to the courts otherwise.

This is exactly what I'm looking for, the procedures I need to go through to assume parental responsibility. Obviously I can consult a solicitor on this, but I thought I'd ask on the old faithful Boards first, see if anyone's been through it before. Note that this isn't a custody battle, there's no animosity between myself and the mother, I just want to assume responsibility for the child.

www.solo.ie has lots of info and links on this type of

I'll have a look at that, thanks Thaed.

adam

dahamsta

This page answers most of my questions, so thanks again Thaed.

adam

Beruthiel

Joint Custody is still rare and fathers having main custody is rarer

I have joint custody - but then I was married to the father of my daughter
I would get the papers drawn up to say you have joint custody, it should be fairly simple as you are not having any hastle with the mother.
Your times to see the child etc... can be set out in the document

dahamsta

I have joint custody - but then I was married to the father of my daughter

Errah sure it's easy for women.

I would get the papers drawn up to say you have joint custody, it should be fairly simple as you are not having any hastle with the mother.

Yeah, I've asked a solicitor to look into it for me already, hopefully it will be a straightforward process and not too expensive. (I've already spent €750 on a DNA test! To be sure to be sure. )

Your times to see the child etc... can be set out in the document

I wonder if you can /not/ do this? I don't like the idea of restricting either myself, the mother or the child in this way. Ditto maintenance, since I'm self-employed in a sector that can hardly be described as solid at the moment. (This can be read it a bad way, but that's not the intention.)

adam

Nevyn

no not easier cos ur female but easier if you have been married to the Father/mohter of you child.

mostly the hammered out visistation rights are needed if the realationship is not good with the mother/fahter of your child.

Ideally if it is civil and on good terms acess does not have to be strictly time tabled.
But the reason it is and the maintanece is set out legally is so that neither partner can use it as a way of lashing out or making life awkward to the other.

hope it all goes well for you

Victor

Originally posted by dahamsta
I wonder if you can /not/ do this? I don't like the idea of restricting either myself, the mother or the child in this way. Ditto maintenance, since I'm self-employed in a sector that can hardly be described as solid at the moment. (This can be read it a bad way, but that's not the intention.)

Remember an agreement is often defined by what it doesn't include.

I (as a random boards member) think you should have some minimum (allowance and responsibility) included.

dahamsta

You'll never be a random boards member Victor...

I understand what you're saying but there is a flip side to agreements too, in that they can create animosity and lead to a loose agreement turning into strict one. At the moment, I'm able to see the child whenever I want, within reason, and the mother is quite understanding about my financial situation (again within reason). I'm not so much concerned as a little wary of tight definitions that could be used in a nasty way later, by either the mother or myself (I can be quite nasty when cornered), the ultimate result of which would probably be harm to the child (who's the most important person in the equation). That being said, I realise that it's a two-way street.

Anyway, I really appreciate everyone's feedback, it was very helpful. Thanks guys.

adam

uzami

I have been involved in a shared parenting agreement with my ex-partner for the last five years with regard to our daughter.


The agreement is quite simple.

I take her 3/4 nights of the week, her mother takes her the rest of the week.

I provide all essentials for my part of the share. The mother likewise.

All major costs eg schooling etc are shared equally.

There is No claim for maintenance as I make no claim off of the mother for my part of the share, therefore she makes no claim from me.

there are legal drafts of shared parenting agreements on the net. I believe Australia and America have been quite progressive about it, though again, they are tightly defined, and if one partner defaults in some part of the agreement, they can unravel quite quickly in animosity.

I found that by taking money out of the equation, the working relationship revolved around the care of our daughter.

Access and money are the usual trading tools, if you are willing to make the comittment, you can reasonably remove them from the table.

I wish you the luck and joy that I have had.

Beruthiel

not always easier on the woman dahamsta - in my case, it was easier on him, but that's another story

wonder if you can /not/ do this? I don't like the idea of restricting either myself, the mother or the child in this way. Ditto maintenance, since I'm self-employed in a sector that can hardly be described as solid at the moment. (This can be read it a bad way, but that's not the intention.

I think it's a good idea in the event that things change sometime in the future, which you can never predict. I have no hassle with her father with regards to times etc, we are both very flexible on this. It sounds like it will be the same for you. However, in the future, between all the things life can throw at you, it’s always handy to have it written down somewhere as a reminder

dahamsta

not always easier on the woman dahamsta - in my case, it was easier on him, but that's another story

Perhaps "easier" is a bad choice of words. There's nothing easy about having and bringing up a child, and being separated makes it that much harder, both for the parents and the kids. However the fact remains that when the parents are separated, the father has little or no rights when it comes to decisions made about the child. In my case, I've been lucky in that I've agreed with every decision - that I'm aware of - that's been taken, but if I hadn't, I would have had to fight quite a bit harder to have my way.

The rights and wrongs behind this are more suited to a debate in Humanities, but it can genuinely be very deprecating to find youself in this situation. Even if you're consulted about decisions, it often feels like window-dressing, you still know in the back of your mind that the mother can make a unilateral decision at any time and toss your opinions aside like so much trash. I've been through this twice now, and although I don't think the mother wanted to make me feel impotent, that's how I felt. And I am SO not impotent.

(You're probably getting an idea why I'm not with the mother now. I'm a self-obsessed wuss. )

I think it's a good idea in the event that things change sometime in the future, which you can never predict. I have no hassle with her father with regards to times etc, we are both very flexible on this. It sounds like it will be the same for you. However, in the future, between all the things life can throw at you, it’s always handy to have it written down somewhere as a reminder

Yes, but again, it can work both ways. I'm probably sounding a little impudent about this, so let me explain: My fella is seven, but I've only known him for six months or so. Because of this slightly odd set of circumstances, where he's a little confused about the situation and I'm a little panicky, I've bordered on obsessive when it comes to when I see him and for how long. I started out with once every 3-4 weeks for an hour or two, worked it down to once a fortnight for 3-4 hours and now I'm down to most of the day once a week.

So say I tie it down to that in this agreement, one day a week, or even two or three days a week. Last week I was in Glastonbury, and the whole time I was there I was thinking how great it would be to bring him next year (I go with my sister and her family, it's more a family thing), and he wants to come too. So what happens if I /do/ fall out with the mother in the meantime? The agreement locks me out of taking him to Glastonbury, whereas if there's no dates and times specified in the agreement, I'm in a much better position to negotiate.

Is my logic flawed? I'd really like to know if it is, because - obviously - this is important.

adam

Beruthiel

The agreement locks me out of taking him to Glastonbury, whereas if there's no dates and times specified in the agreement, I'm in a much better position to negotiate

unless you look at it the other way
ie - you have no real agreement and that locks you out totally....

as I said, I have an agreement, but we never stick to it, after a certain age, if the parents have the childs best interest at heart,
then the childs opinion comes into it - at this stage, we both work around what our daughter wants and whither we agree with it or not.
I suppose I've been lucky, everything just worked out with us and we never got into the situation where we had to argue about a decision. You have shown your ex that you can be trusted with him, by the time he reaches the age to bring him to a gig, she will trust you enough for that to happen.

dahamsta

Originally posted by Beruthiel
unless you look at it the other way
ie - you have no real agreement and that locks you out totally....

Yeah, I guess there's no real answer, we're at the whim of our solicitors when you get right down to it, or at least how much solicitor we can afford. Hopefully it'll never come to that.

You have shown your ex that you can be trusted with him, by the time he reaches the age to bring him to a gig, she will trust you enough for that to happen.

Ah, good old trust. Another reason we're not together...

Thanks Beruthiel.

adam

Victor

Originally posted by dahamsta
You'll never be a random boards member Victor...

Insofar as I cannot tell you how to raise your child.

Originally posted by Beruthiel
The agreement locks me out of taking him to Glastonbury, whereas if there's no dates and times specified in the agreement, I'm in a much better position to negotiate

unless you look at it the other way
ie - you have no real agreement and that locks you out totally....

Be aware that there are legal restrictions on bringing a child outside the jurisdiction.

dahamsta

Originally posted by Victor
Be aware that there are legal restrictions on bringing a child outside the jurisdiction.

Eh? Even with the agreement of the joint guardian?

adam

uzami

Be aware that there are legal restrictions on bringing a child outside the jurisdiction

I think if child has own passport and is travelling with legal guardian it's ok.

Though I am not too sure, as it was a few years ago when i last looked at that issue.......

....but my resolution was to have my daughter get her own passport.

hipchick

Once you name is on the birthcert, it would be a good idea to get an access order from court to set your visitation rights out legally....

If you in Dublin then its Dolphin House near christ church..... You just have to go and apply then you will be given a court date...the rest is in their hands.

Best of luck!!

Victor

Originally posted by dahamsta
Even with the agreement of the joint guardian?

Only seeing this now.

Sorry, obviously if permission (type?) is given you can go. And obvioulsy if the 3 of you want to go somewhere together you can.

However, there have been high-profile cases of one parent or other removing the child from the jurisdiction without specific permisison, only for a major incident to arise, with a policy of "repatriate first, ask questions later" being used by most authorities.

dahamsta

And rightly so too imho Victor. You can't take chances with these things.

hipchick, as far as I'm aware you don't need to go to court, a written agreement would be legally binding and can be signed in front of a solicitor or notary. That's the impression I get anyway, unless you're talking about something else entirely.

Thanks guys,
adam

dahamsta

Keep forgetting to ask: Does anyone know offhand the simplest procedure for getting the father's name changed on the birth cert. I checked OASIS but it seems to cover rights rather than procedures.

adam

Victor

There are specific rules, probably in law as opposed to procedure. Most such acts are 150 years old (but amended). A quick chat with the local (or not local) registrar might help. I suspect there may be time limits, not sure.

Just found this:
REGISTRATION OF BIRTHS ACT, 1996
http://193.120.124.98/ZZA36Y1996S1.html

A search on http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/front.html for "birth" throws up 96 acts and regulations.

PS. About taking kids abroad, this is what I was thinking of.

PROTECTION OF CHILDREN (HAGUE CONVENTION) ACT, 2000
http://193.120.124.98/ZZA37Y2000S2.html

dahamsta

Asked the local registrar, she sounded like I'd presented the question to her on a sheet of soiled toilet paper. I was going to explain to her that mommies sometimes don't tell daddies the whole truth, but didn't have the energy. Then I asked my solicitor, who told me "the door may be closed" on my situation, but when I mentioned joint guardianship he said the same, which isn't true. I agreed to go and meet him, but my first words will be "is this costing me money?" -- if he says yes, I'll work on it myself for a little while more.

adam

Victor

Originally posted by dahamsta
I agreed to go and meet him, but my first words will be "is this costing me money?" -- if he says yes, I'll work on it myself for a little while more.

First chat is usually free (i.e. built into overall cost) and may not be charged for at all if it goes nowhere.

Typedef

If you are not married to the mother of you child you do not have Guardianship rights or Custody rights to that child.

Welcome to Ireland.

The bleeding edge of 14th century thinking.

Nevyn

Well it is presuposed that if you are not married how can you prove that the child is yours ? indeed it was also asumed at one stage that if she was not married then the mother was of such loose morals that she could not be sure of who the father was either.

There are a hell of a lot of people out there who's bio father is not th eperson listed on thier birth certs wether the mother is married or not; but we dont have the resouces or the labs to have testing done on children before such a legal document of import as a birth cert is filled in.

Typedef

Genetic test.

(N) hundred/thousand notes, to a lab in Ireland or Britain.

All I'm saying is that in these supposed times of equality, it's a pretty rough deal for a 'father', by virtue of the fact he's a man.

If gender roles can be changed to the point where it's ok for women, to go and fight in wars, I honestly don't see much defence for the State's bias to the imposition of this gender role.

In fact, one day, I was in Temple Bar and saw a march of fathers through town who were demanding equal rights in terms of access to their children.

Unfortunatly such a relatively unvocal minority may as well not exist.

dahamsta

Genetic test. (N) hundred/thousand notes, to a lab in Ireland or Britain.

€750.

adam

DAWNRISER

JUST WANTED TO SAY THAT I WISH YOU ALL THE BEST IN YOUR REALTIONSHIP WITH YOUR CHILD.............. BUT DON'T PUT TOO MUCH FAITH IN ANY WRITTEN "LEGALLY BINDING" AGREEMENT!!!
KNOW SOMEONE ( NOT AN "URBAN LEDGEND" ) WHO WAS EVEN MARRIED, GOT SEPARATED, HAD A LEGALLY BINDING SEPERATION AGREEMENT AND HAD HIS KIDS LIVING WITH HIM FOR 4 DAYS OF THE WEEK, IN THE HOUSE THEY GREW UP IN , AND DURNG A COURT HEARING AS PART OF HIS DIVORCE, HIS EX WAS GIVEN FULL CUSTODY OF THE KIDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THIS WOMAN ISN'T FIT TO LOOK AFTER A DOG HENCE HE HAD THE KIDS MOST OF THE TIME PREVIOUS TO THIS, WAS EVEN BEING CHECKED OUT BY THE SOCIAL SERVICES, HAD A SOCIAL WORKER CHECKING IN ON THE KIDS WHEN SHE HAD THEM!!!!!!!!
SO PLEASE DON'T RELY ON THE IRISH JUSTICE SYSTEM............. IT STINKS UNLESS OF CORSE YOUR A WOMAN...........
THEN IT SMELLS QUITE SWEETLY OF ROSES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

dahamsta

Sorry for hupping the thread, just wanted to add that I "signed for the boy" today. Now officially Kelvyn's guardian, and it looks like it may be possible to get the birth cert changed too. Proud as punch, hence the post.

adam

DAWNRISER

CONGRATS!!!!!!!

Delighted you got this sorted........ wish you all the best , he looks like a deadly kid!!!!

have lots of fun........ and don't sweat the small sftuff!!!!!

Victor

Originally posted by DAWNRISER
Delighted you got this sorted........ wish you all the best , he looks like a deadly kid!!!!

Pity about the father .... Adam is that pic photoshopped? Admit it, the head just doesn't sit right on that other guy's body. Are you in denial?

Congrats.

dahamsta

LOL, if you saw me now you'd definitely think it was photoshopped. I'm incredibly hairy at the moment.

Thanks guys!

adam

foxinsocks

Congratulations Dahamsta, welcome to parenthood

Fox_in_Socks