Freedom of Information requests will cost €15

MDR

Taken from rte.ie .... needless to say I will be roaring abuse at my TD over this sh*te ! I am spiting fire ..... how dare they !

(09:16) The Minister for Finance, Charlie McCreevy, has announced that requests under the Freedom of Information Act will now incur a cost of €15.

Controversial changes made to the Freedom of Information Act earlier this year paved the way for the introduction of these charges.

From next Monday, anyone making a request for non-personal information will have to pay an up-front fee of €15.

But if members of the public are not happy with a Department's response, extra charges will apply.

An internal appeal to the Department in question will cost €75, while it will cost €150 to appeal a decision to the Information Commissioner.

The recently appointed Commissioner, former journalist Emily O'Reilly, told RTÉ News she was studying the Department of Finance document and would make a statement later today.

While Mr McCreevy said the changes will lead to a better appreciation of a service which has been estimated to cost hundreds of euro per request, the move has been strongly criticised by Fine Gael, the Greens and the Labour Party.

The Labour Party spokeswoman on Finance, Joan Burton, described the move as the most backward ever taken by the Government.

The Irish Council for Civil Liberties and the National Union of Journalists said there was no justification for introducing the new charges.

NUJ Irish Secretary Seamus Dooley said the charges were 'an outrageous attempt to thwart citizens' access to public information'.

flav0rflav

relevance? To IOFFL. Maybe you meant to post in Privacy/Civil Liberties?

MDR

IOFFL would be a heavy user of the FOI ....

flav0rflav

And pizza.











sorry, just came to mind, i'll get back to work now.

Sleipnir

So if you ask a department for info under the Freedom Of Information Act, it'll cost you 15 euro.
If the department say "we can't find anything, we lost it"
it'll cost you more money to take issue with that!??
Talk about a cash cow.

Zombrex

Freedom of Information just got a lot less free


This is quite an important set back for government accountability. I think it would get a lot more views if this was moved to the Politics or Humanities boards.

MDR

so copied ....

Paddy20

What an insult to the Citizens of the Irish Republic. This simply once again illustrates this Governments ignorance and ineptitude.

I do not see how a Minister can implement charges for information under the legislated and as far as I know FREE! Freedom of Information Act, without first having a Dail debate or referendum in order too change the legislation.

Whoever is responsible for this undemocratic decision should be forced to resign immediately.

As an Irish Citizen I will continue to demand any information I need FREE OF CHARGE under the FREEDOM! of Information Act.

This Government should call an immediate General Election, as they are obviously a bunch of idiots and this Country deserves better and our Citizens must be treated with RESPECT.

Paddy20:mad:

shinzon

they cant really call this the freedom of infornmation act now can they, cause it aint free, and then you have to pay more if they cant find it and you take issue with that.

Is this the only country with that charge now in place and if it isnt what did they do to combat it.

I find this dangerously close to the big brother syndrome, they basically dont want you knowing what they know about you.

Well i hope we get wiser in the next general election, vote in some party that will abolish this immediately

Regards

Shin

MDR

I am with Paddy20 on this one (for a change )

flav0rflav

It costs money to pay the civil servants and facilities for this freedom. Now it can either be your tax, or a fee from the people getting the info. Pick one.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by flav0rflav
It costs money to pay the civil servants and facilities for this freedom. Now it can either be your tax, or a fee from the people getting the info. Pick one.

Tax.

MDR

Ok, thats a fair point, but they are looking for quite a bit on monso, I can never understand how these sort of things go from being nothing, to being a large sum. I could have coped with under €10 per request, but €15 ? and how come such an even figure it doesn't even look like its been exactily costed, it just look like Charlie picked a number out of the Sky.

I haven't seen the exact terms, but they would need to have a special dispensation for un-waged, low-waged, students, OAP etc ....

MDR

Yeah, I agree with Mike, it should be tax ....
screw the republicans .....

ednwireland

what i don't get is why i have to pay to get info that i should be allowed to see anyway ?
do you still have to pay if you ask a td to get the info , or would that be a way round the system - get a few tame td's and get them to submit the requests

Paddy20

ednwireland,

Are you really suggesting that we should trust politicians?, and that we should simply lie down and accept this monstrous imposition on the civil rights of the people of the Irish Republic?..

Are the damn Government now trying to impose a Northern Ireland type mentality on us. They will never get away with it!.

They had better have a very quick re-think on this issue and themselves to decide ifthey are fit to be in office any longer.

Paddy20:mad:

MDR

Paddy,

calm yourself, this is usually the point people abandon backing you up.

Are you really suggesting that we should trust politicians?,

I don't see how they are any more or less trustworthy than the rest of the population, but I amn't wholy sure what you are implying anyway.

Charging us for FOI is however an assault on equility, ie to access information that should be "freely" available to all citizens one will have to pay. Therefore citizens who can't afford to pay won't have the same level of access, this is all about indirect taxation .... and it stinks ....

Are the damn Government now trying to impose a Northern Ireland type mentality on us

Did you ever consider that some might find this unnessarily inflamatory ? Without debating the issue some of us don't share your views of the Northern Irish, and see their current system as becoming very progressive over time, and would appreciate it if you kept these off-hand comments in some other forum.

They had better have a very quick re-think on this issue and themselves to decide ifthey are fit to be in office any longer.

I wasn't aware that you had an automatic system for booting governments with long terms still left in office out of power ? if so do share, if you don't lets get realistic and start canvassing our TD's.

Serbian

Personally I don't think that this charge is based on the 'cost' of this information (ie The wages paid to the people who research the info). It should be a government subsidised service. I believe that it has been implemented to act as a deterrant. Obviously, now that people have to pay for information that should be free, they are much less likely to request this information on a whim.

As far as I know, only public organisations are accountable under the freedom of information act, thus making the government less accountable as requests for information made available under the Freedom of Information Act will seriously decline.

It is an utter disgrace, but should we expect anything more from our current government?

jd

It may have been targetted at individuals making multiple frivolous requests-there are those types around..
/me ducks

Paddy20

MDR,

OK, My post may appear OTT, but I am not here as an entrant in a popularity contest.

The imposition of a charge for information under the FREEdom of Information Act is unacceptable too me. I believe their is a - hidden agenda - behind the charges which become effective from Monday next, and imho, Charlie should resign forthwith or be sacked.

People should remember that politicians are their to serve the citizens of Ireland and when they behave in this manner they must be called to account, thats democracy.

As for Northern Ireland? I think it is best that I do not comment any further on that on this forum!. As it would take three pages for me too explain what I really meant.

The citizens of Ireland not I! have the right too force an election if that is their wish, but they are so browbeaten that they now think that continually being kicked and robbed is normal!.

Yes, I am angry and I am not afraid to state this fact.

Paddy20.

Capt'n Midnight

RE:It costs money to pay the civil servants and facilities for this freedom.

This is all about restricting the flow of info - we are entitled to see it - any of you guys remember eircom using similar tactics.. when they changed the price of a local call from 10p to a metered call....

If it does cost money then they should employ people full time - give out the docs free for a month to see the demand and then divide the cost of giving them by the number of docs - now you have a non-profit Freedom of info act.

Technically they could publish all the info on a web site and no one need be employed. All citizens have access to internet in libraries.

If they are blaiming a minority - then set a quota - ie. you are allowed to two requests per week free or whatever and then they can charge... (eircom blamed modems on all day for the end of 10p local calls - all they had to do was give the first hour at 10p and then charge more after that.,...)

OK what can be done - how about a website - hosted in a different country ( in case of copyright ) where people can upload the docs for ALL to see. - You could try and get amnesty / greenpeace etc. to sponsor docs relevant to them... or oposition politicians too....

sceptre

Originally posted by Paddy20
As for Northern Ireland? I think it is best that I do not comment any further on that on this forum!. As it would take three pages for me too explain what I really meant.

Not because it would take you too much space - rather because this isn't the forum for that kind of thing. It may well be a contentious issue in Donegal or anywhere else but this isn't the place and frankly I don't give a monkeys.

Feel free to tootle over to the Politics forum with a rant on either side.

Paddy20

sceptre,

Good idea, I will tootle over to the Politics* forum that I was unaware of up until now.

I am also more than aware of your - Quote:- " frankly I dont give a monkeys" end quote, attitude.

Paddy20

Stonemason

Hold on are they trying to tell us they have to take civil servants (who we pay for anyway through taxes) away from other jobs to deal with requests for information ?.I thought they would have a department with civil servants specifically for this purpose kind of like librarians but better paid!!.
I would say fair enough to pay for PP but to charge people twice is abit rich. Putting all the info onto a website would be a good way to go for easy of access and perhaps trim back on expensive civil servants in the process.

I don’t think the Government would want people to have that much ease of access if they are anything like the UK or U.S.A allot of stuff they would like to keep buried in a musty old store rooms for as long as possible.

The system would also be open to abuse i.e a failed first attempt for whatever reason then your €15 turns into €90 and if your still not happy hand us another €150 and we will do an internal investigation to the best of our ability HA!!. You could stop people getting the info you didn’t want them to have and charge them at the same time sweet.

Look on the bright side it may it may cost us less in the long run less info = less tribunals .

Serbian

Just to remind people, that charging for the FREEdom of Information act is not actually a new thing. In fact is has been there since the very start.

Fees.
Fees may be charged as follows: -

- In respect of non-personal information, fees may be charged for the time spent in efficiently locating and copying records, based on the standard rates in operation at the time of the request. No charges may apply in respect of the time spent by public bodies in considering requests.
- A deposit of 20% may be payable where the total fee is likely to exceed £40.

Again this only applies to non-personal information, but the new few is an 'up front' fee. So I guess you are now being charged for public bodies to consider requests...

theking

Would these complaints, including complaints to TDs, not have been more usefully made while the matter was being debated, instead of after it has been brought into law?

It is much easier to block a law by kicking up a fuss than to have one repealed.

You may have seen it on the front pages of all the national newspapers, or at the top of the Radio and TV news. Railing now against the perfidy of the govt. is pointless. Although, if you want to rail against something, you might want to look at the Data Protection question dealt with by Karlin Lillington in the Irish Times.

Usefully available on her weblog
here

SkepticOne

Originally posted by theking
Would these complaints, including complaints to TDs, not have been more usefully made while the matter was being debated, instead of after it has been brought into law?

I don't think any legislation was used with regard to these charges. It is simply a policy change. There was debate on a different matter concerning what would be available under FOI, but this had nothing to do with charges. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

theking

A Bill was introduced by Minister for Finance, amending the previous Freedom of Information Act 1998.

However, policy changes must have some legal format to be effective. This can be in the form of an Act or Ministerial Orders (including Statutory Instruments).

Hope that's of some help.

There's a report on the first announcement
on RTE News' site Its in realplayer, and from the 1 o'clock news. About half way down the bulletin, but a search for 'freedom of information' in the search box in the header will show it quickly became a bigger issue.

MadsL

Kind of interesting to see what is already being requested. Logs for the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources available here

MadsL

A reduced fee of €10 will apply if the person making the request is a medical card holder or a dependent of a medical card holder.

Appeal Prices

Under the new arrangements announced by the Minister, a fee of €75 (reduced to €25 for medical card holders and their dependants) will be required to accompany such an application.

2nd Appeal prices

. Under the new arrangements, a fee of €150 (reduced to €50 for medical card holders and their dependants) must accompany such an application.

Department of Finance

MadsL

Here's the official handbook for dealing with Department
of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. FOI requests...
Official Handbook

It notes additional 'Search and retrieval fees can be levied'

"As noted above fees can be charged for the “estimated cost of the search for and retrieval of records” and for the “estimated cost of any copy of the record made”. The amount which can be
charged per hour spent on search and retrieval has been set by the Minister for Finance at €20.95 (£16.50) per hour and the charge permitted per copy made has been set at €0.04 (3p) per page.

Where you estimate the fee for search and retrieval will be less than €50.79 (£40) you will normally notify the amount of the fee to the requester at the time of the substantive decision regarding access to the records at issue. Where you anticipate that the cost of efficient search and retrieval will be over €50.79 (£40) (i.e.
will take longer than 2 hours 43 minutes), you are required to seek a deposit of not less than 20% of the cost. This must be done within two weeks of receipt of the request."

dahamsta

I'm a little annoyed with the journalists and the media for this one. They've known about it for quite some time, but they seem to have made very little effort to bring it to Joe Public's attention. Perhaps they don't like the idea of all those amateurs out there stealing their thunder? The big meeja boys can well afford it after all, and their in-house journos won't be paying for the requests themselves...

adam

Today's conspiracy theory was brought to you by the letter 'A' and a small shifty gent by the name of Eric.

theking

To be fair, it ran on the front pages of the national newspapers for the best part of the week, and was in all the news bulletins- frequently as the top story.

Also it was discussed on the Radio news, as well as the magazine programmes like the Last Word.

I'm all in favour of unplugging from the info-splurge now and then, and taking a break for worrying about whatever is the burning issue of the day, but when you do it isn't really reasonable to complain that news you did want to know didn't get to you.

Short of a mail drop to everyone's houses, you'd have been hard pressed to come up with more saturation coverage while it was brewing. It has gone quiet since the Bill was passed, and flared up again now because we didn't know what charges were going to be set. And now that the media have something new to report, they're back jumping all over it. Yesterday, for example, the Irish Times made it the topic of their lead editorial.

theking

Those fees quoted form the Finance FOI charges were paper tigers. I'd requested stuff from them, and even if they asked you for the fee, you just had to ask for them to be waived. The Information Commissioner wasn't happy about them, so they knew they were on shakey ground trying to enforce them. I think they only had them in the info to dissuade loopers from requesting to see everything in the Department.

These new charges are for real, and escalate well beyond international norms. In Canada it costs E16 to appeal compared to our E75 (rising to E150 at the next stage).

dahamsta

Well, I don't see "traditional" news all that much and I'll grant you I did see a couple of, albeit small, pieces, but I think I would have noticed if it was splashed all over the shop. Perhaps I was asleep that week though.

adam

flav0rflav

Originally posted by MadsL
Kind of interesting to see what is already being requested. Logs for the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources available here

Yes quite informative.

And does indicate that there might be a not inconsiderable expense in finding useful public info like "Any records or correspondence in the last nine months on the financial situation in RTE and on the matter of the Cabin Fever programme and the sinking of the Cabin Fever vessel", by The Irish Times.

MadsL

I would be extremely interested in the following FOI request;

FOI/161/2003
Information on the criterias under which the Minister has allocated grants to selected companies to deploy trial broadband network.

I wonder what the policy is once this FOI data has been gathered - is it then free to the 2nd person to request access to the documents, assuming that it is not posted on the website??

Capt'n Midnight

Some one asked for
"Any correspondence between RTE and the Department of Communications, Marine & Natural Resources between December 2002 and 17th June 2003 regarding the establishment of TG4 as an independent broadcasting service from RTE"

Maybe I could ask them for
Any corespondence between the Dept and organisations registered with comreg since 7 July 1921 ....


It's a nice Idea to have a link to Winzip on the page.
unfortunately you can't download any of the info
and encouraging people to use a commercial application when there are plenty of free alternatives is a bit naff..

It's called a free download - I assume if you can pay for the "free" information you can afford the "free" software...

(click here to download - and the BSA can have your IP in 3 days time...

Capt'n Midnight

do the Gov't still charge you when you point out a mistake that they have to correct..

"the right to have personal information held on them corrected or updated where such information is incomplete, incorrect or misleading;"