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Liverpool Fiction
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21-06-2003 2:51am#1
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Well maybe 20 was an over estimation but ill give it ago but I reckon I can get at least near it.
Btw im talking Pulling power and this season.
Roma, Millan, Inter, Juve, Lazio, Parma, Bayern, Dortmound, Shalka, Leverkusen, Ajax, PSV, Arsnel, Man U, Newcastle, Chealsa, Barca, Real, Valencia, Deportivo. Theres also that other club in holland that names escape me and I havent even mentioned the french league.
Right now lets all bedate about how im wrong to have said certain clubs. But Im pretty certain all the clubs I have mentioned most players would rather be there than at Liverpool and most of those clubs have more money to spend
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Originally posted by Wolf
Well maybe 20 was an over estimation but ill give it ago but I reckon I can get at least near it.
Btw im talking Pulling power and this season.
Roma, Millan, Inter, Juve, Lazio, Parma, Bayern, Dortmound, Shalka, Leverkusen, Ajax, PSV, Arsnel, Man U, Newcastle, Chealsa, Barca, Real, Valencia, Deportivo. Theres also that other club in holland that names escape me and I havent even mentioned the french league.
Right now lets all bedate about how im wrong to have said certain clubs. But Im pretty certain all the clubs I have mentioned most players would rather be there than at Liverpool and most of those clubs have more money to spend
Quite a list.
Let's see, it's widely acknowledged that La Liga, Seria A and the Premiership are the strongest leagues in Europe at the moment, thus have the greatest pulling power.
Looking at your list, only Bayern and possibly Ajax would have a greater pull than Liverpool. In Ajax's case, this is simply due to CL qualification as the Dutch league isn't that strong.
It seems you're of the opinion that qualification for the CL this year is the deciding factor. I'm sure it plays a part in a players thinking alright but surely they gage the club over the period of the contract they sign with them and the prestige of the club - failure to do so would be very short sighted imo.
Personally, I don't think they'd be too worried about Liverpool's future.
Afterall, they have qualified for two out of the last three CL's and missed out this year on the last day of the season - this despite having the worst run of results in over fifty years!
I've already touched on the financial situation in my last post, so I won't repeat myself. However, I stand by what I said earlier. Most clubs, including those on your list, will not have much money to spend this summer.
Right, getting back to your list.
I think it's quite amusing that you have included Leverkusen and Lazio. Leverkusen sold most of their best players last year and narrowly avoided relegation on the last day of the German season. Can't see them being much of a draw.
Lazio are struggling financially. The club is up for sale at the moment and is in so much debt that some players have complained of not getting their wages. I'd imagine any player would be wary of signing for them at the moment even if they did qualify for the CL.
That being said, here's my reckoning.
Definite
Real, Milan, Juve, Inter, Roma, Barca, Man U, Arsenal.
Debatable
Valencia, Parma, Bayern, Dortmund, Ajax, PSV, Lazio, Chelsea, Newcastle, Deportivo.
No Chance
Schalke, Leverkusen.0 -
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Originally posted by Makaveli
Leverkusen? Eh no I don't think so.
From that list Inter, Milan, Juve, Barce, Bayern, Ajax, Arsenal, Man Utd, Real, Deportivo and Valencia.
Okay thats sortedChelsea and Newcastle are around about the same as Liverpool maybe, but I think Liverpool have bigger pulling power than them.
Yeah yeah right. More money and CL and both teams with alot more potebtial and better prospects in the imediate future.Parma, Roma, PSV, Lazio, Dortmund and Schalke, imo Liverpool have greater pulling power.
Also Roma, Lazio are deffinatly bigger and have more pulling power and possibly this seaon Dortmound.Wolf, out of interest, who do you support?
Bristol Rovers..... Honest
Newcastle0 -
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Ah ffs now i have to start with proper posts that take me more than five seconds to write sigh
Originally posted by Bannor
Barca have a debt of about €70M, they don't have money to spend at the moment which is why Laporta's(??) €30M for David Beckham was laughable.
This is not entirly true.
While yes they are in rather large dept Laporta will/has (more or less) taken over. What will happen, as has happened with Real as well, is that they can destroy themsleves financially and then Fans of the team and indeed the council will throw money at the team and buy them out of dept. Also haveing a 100,000 seater stadium helps.Not really - SS Lazio was created so that the fascists in Rome would have a team to support. They blew a shed load of money building a team to win the Italian title a few years ago and have done nothing since - that is the highlight of their history. They don't have any money to spend so they can't grab headlines from Roma with their transfers.
Yes but Lazio have a large stadium and plenty od backing and will always be able to attract the big names. They have also been around for a long time and do have a histroy (even if not a nice one) and will allways be able to get plays (if not blacks). Also the fact that Roma and Lazio have big backer and a hugh stadium and loyal fans.As for the debatable teams :-
Newcastle are not a top European team, when did they last win something?
This is not the point, perhaps we are talking about a very different ideas here. The point is that the majority of players out there this summer would rather go to Chealsa or Newcastle than go to Liverpool. I dont think im wrong in saying this.....Chelsea - another club that blew a load of money on players to win a few cups, their pulling power in the international transfer market has been based on paying high wages and being based in London. What has it achieved? A Cup Winners Cup when every other major club was in the UEFA Cup or Champions League and almost bankrupted the club in the process.
Ah but since Ranieri has come in he has come in he has stablized the team and the club while not been able to run out and sign big money still has a very good squad and excellent youth squad and really could be contenders next year if a bit of a surprize package.In terms of transfer pulling power the Dutch clubs are sellers and not buyers Ajax and PSV have a history of developing talent.
However, lets not forget that some of those young talented teams have gone far and won things in the CL and as a result cant be written off.In Spain, Real and Barca get 60% of the tv money between them which doesn't leave the others with alot. Teams temporarily get to the top but never sustain a consistent challenge to the two because they don't have the resources to compete.
Eh? Valencia and Deportivo have been in good CL form the last couple of years and have been alot for consisten in the CL than Liverpool over the last 5/6 years in the CL. Also lets not forget that Real were taken to the very last day of the season this year and Barca well lets not go there (which you have already said and then said this)The German clubs don't spend big money in the transfer market and the fact that you included Leverkusen in the list at all is laughable - they're reknowned for having one of the best scouting networks which they use to discover talent. The highlight of their history is winning a UEFA Cup and getting to a Champion's League Final - They have never won the domestic league. Following their season of 'almost success' their two best players went to Bayern. This year they narrowly avoided relegation and are looking to offload their best players again. Bayern are by far the biggest club in Germany but they're a big fish in a small pond.
I can see your point about Leverkusen, fair enough but to put German clubs down as not big spenders is rubbish. Dortmound bought Amoruso at some large price (and Dortmund have an undenighable eruo pedigre) and as for Bayern anyone who even tries to say they arent a big Eruo contender is talking thro their ass.I don't know where you got the information about Newcastle's money pot but it's entirely dependent on the Champions League. Liverpool don't have the extra cash from the Champions League available to spend this season but there is the matter of the money that wasn't spent last season : £12M which was refused for Duff and £9M which thankfully wasn't spent on Bowyer. There's also the cash cow trip to the Far East where they'll rake in money on merchandise - Newcastle don't have a history to live off of.
Ah funny that you have mentioned that infact the whole reason for the Newcastle success story is the fact the the onwers have thrown money into it left right and centre but apart from that Newcastle have the 2nd highest average attendance (after Man U) and one of the largest shirt sales in England, yearly. They have also been extremly smart in the market since Bobby came in and have quailifed again for the CL as well as making the second round last years with a relativly low wage buget.
Now you tell me that Newcastle dont have alot more money than Liverpool to spend.
On top of the you should take a look at how much the Liverpool sqauds wage bill is (party due to size) and the lack of CL football win in the past few years has hit them.I think you're being too pessimistic because the expectations for last season were so high. The acquisition of Finnan alone will bring more balance to the team and give us a chance of finishing higher up the table.
Ill agree that Finnan was more than likly an excellent signing but the need to off load some of the flops that are unfortuantly on big wages. They will also have to unload these for a cut price and replace them with players that the buget can ill afford. This means that any real challange will take at least 2/3 years to come to furition.At the end of the season Houllier came out with a bold statement about the players he wanted to bring in this summer: Duff, Boumsong and Cisse. Of these Souness has priced Duff out of the market - something that Duff has publicly said that he's not happy about. There was also mention of him saying that if he had known it was going to happen then he wouldn't have signed the new contract at the start of last season. Auxerre had agreed to let Boumsong and Cisse go because they weren't expected to qualify for Europe, then they went and won the French Cup which has thrown a spanner in the works. Both players have declared their intentions to leave but the club wants to keep them but now they risk losing them at knock down fees or on Bosmans next year. There will be a big shake up at Auxerre this summer - they have already lost one appeal over Mexes' contract, he also wants to leave the club. The transfer window is open until the end of August so the saga has a long time to run yet.
At the end of the day, yes, Houllier did come out with some rather unrealistic signing promises and at the end of the day if they had managed to get CL then this wouldnt be the case. But that fact is that they havent managed CL and will have to look else where for players of quality (which is undoutedly needed for the team to progress). While Houllier is well respected in France and does have contactes he will have to set the bar a little lower. These two new young french players hes signed (im sorry but the name escape me right now) I know are talented players and could be just what the docter ordered. However, when you say about the pulling power of the manager you need look know futher than Bobby Robsen who probably ahs the greatest pulling power for players world wide.
To sum up....... (dam you for making me write a real post)
You made some excellents point and I thank you but the entire point of this post was to put a bit of realizim into the rantings
that many of the threads seem to have about Liverpool and who they will sign. The simple fact of the matter is after a very lack luster couple of seaons Liverpool have a hill to climb and while im sure they will climb that hill they are still going to have to do it.
Cheers
Wolf
PS sorry for any bad spelling/Grammer but im in work and havent a chance to read over this more than once. 0 -
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The above statement just isnt true. Newvastle have
1/ A bigger stadium, more revenue from CL, more shirt sales, a maller squad on less wages and more money for CL again this year.
2/ As for prestige player want to play in the CL and they arent blind to liverpool the last couple of seaons so why in the world would they rather go there?
You have said that a player would rather Liverpool right now than Newcastle thats just crazy. He would get to play in the CL with a very promising group of young players that play exciting football with one of the best managers of all time.
At Liverpool they get to play in the UEFA cup with a team that has played boring tactics and a manager and team that have under achived over the past few years.
Im sorry buy you are only saying that cuz your a pool fan and the facts dont back it up.
I commend you for defending your club but it just doesnt add up. Also I have stated many of this in my post plaese read the posts before replying PIE0 -
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Originally posted by Wolf
The above statement just isnt true. Newvastle have
1/ A bigger stadium, more revenue from CL, more shirt sales, a maller squad on less wages and more money for CL again this year.
You keep saying that Newcastle have more shirt sales, but fail to provide proof. I'd hazard a guess that they have the bigger increase in shirt sales this season, rather than the biggest shirt sales overall. Considering Liverpool also have a much larger global following, I would doubt that they're having much trouble shifting jerseys. Liverpool also have money from their last two CL (and a UEFA cup, lest we forget) efforts and their wages aren't high either, with only 2 or 3 players on "huge" wages by today's standards.
Again, you're looking at the immediate future, which is fine. But most people would agree that Liverpool, with some tactical adjustments will easily qualify for the CL in the next few seasons.
2/ As for prestige player want to play in the CL and they arent blind to liverpool the last couple of seaons so why in the world would they rather go there?
I don't agree with that. Newcastle have some very good players, but much like Liverpool they rely on 1 or 2 players to win their games. The fact that Newcastle can play so well is as much down to Bobby's motivation as it is to individual talent.You have said that a player would rather Liverpool right now than Newcastle thats just crazy. He would get to play in the CL with a very promising group of young players that play exciting football with one of the best managers of all time.
You're right. Six cups in 4 seasons is underachieving when you have the pedigree of a team like Liverpool. I could rest my case there, with you having proved my point.At Liverpool they get to play in the UEFA cup with a team that has played boring tactics and a manager and team that have under achived over the past few years.Im sorry buy you are only saying that cuz your a pool fan and the facts dont back it up.
I commend you for defending your club but it just doesnt add up. Also I have stated many of this in my post plaese read the posts before replying PIE
You haven't stated anything apart from your personal opinion (which, unless you've got a bank statement from all the clubs mentioned, is all that anyone can give in this case), but since you're being condescending to me...
I also commend your attempts to convince... um... yourself that Newcastle are a European super-power, but qualifying for a couple of CL's does not a super-power make when the likelihood is they are just another flash-in-the-pan, albeit a pretty good one.
I really didn't wanna get involved with this, as "pulling power" isn't something we can use a ruler to gauge.0 -
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It a well known fact that Newcastle have shifted one of the largest amounts of shirts in the UK. Im actaully a share holder and if I can find the last report I got ill post up the figures here.
Also you have said about Liverpools last two European adventures. The distance you go in the CL is very important to the money you get as is the results as you get more money if you win games in the CL.
Im not trying to say the Newcastle are a eruopean super power and never even tried to claim that. All I was saying was that Newcastle have....
1/ More money
2/More pulling power this season.
Also im sorry the I came across condescending I honestly did mean to but probably did.
Also...Who out of those 3 has won the most cups at their current club?
Common please. How about the question who ahs done more for the clubs in the time they have been there or more to the point who has won the most cups overall.
As for the worthless cup dont even fob that off as an achivement.0 -
You're right. Six cups in 4 seasons is underachieving when you have the pedigree of a team like Liverpool. I could rest my case there, with you having proved my point.
would you ever kop on and stop counting the charity shield and european super cup as competitions, next you'll be including tiddlywinks as a houlier achievment, part of the "5 trophies in one year brigade". give it a rest
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I know what you meanOriginally posted by Wolf
Ah ffs now i have to start with proper posts that take me more than five seconds to write sigh
I'll break up my responses from now on hopefully it'll make things easier.
There's a guy on one of the Liverpool fan site's messageboards who is well connected with Barcelona and Real Madrid. His take on the Barcelona saga is that the club is in trouble, both financially and on the pitch.This is not entirly true.
While yes they are in rather large dept Laporta will/has (more or less) taken over. What will happen, as has happened with Real as well, is that they can destroy themsleves financially and then Fans of the team and indeed the council will throw money at the team and buy them out of dept. Also haveing a 100,000 seater stadium helps.
Gus Hiddink refused the management job because the money being offered was 'an insult'. Frank Rijkaard also refused the job because of the money on offer but Cruyff apparently talked him into taking the job on Saturday evening.
There's a major split in the dressing room because certain members of the Dutch contingent don't get on with their team mates - the club have been trying to offload Kluivert and Overmars since last Christmas but there are no takers. The fans aren't happy with the big money foreign stars not making the effort on the pitch and started to boycott home games. The players were notified at the weekend that if they want to stay at the Nou Camp that they'll have to take a major pay cut, so they're expecting many departures in the closed season.0 -
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Originally posted by talla
would you ever kop on and stop counting the charity shield and european super cup as competitions, next you'll be including tiddlywinks as a houlier achievment, part of the "5 trophies in one year brigade". give it a rest
That's just pathetic.
Those trophies are more than Newcastle/Chelsea have managed and those are the teams Liverpool are being compared with in this thread.0 -
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