Caranica Registered User
#181

LirW said:
OP, I really think you're being a little bit paranoid. Granted, not everything they did was okay so there's definitely wrong on their side but as you can see you can discuss this infinitely and nothing's going to get better.

You need to meet up with them asap and line a few things out:
- you wanna be notified of changes in the future otherwise they break the lease and you'll serve notice


Not notified of changes, permission requested for changes, it's a huge difference. Having followed this thread from the start my instinct would be to end the tenancy. They've taken so many liberties with your property so far, without permission. Who knows what's next. You can't go around making major changes without permission of the owner. Simple as. Painting is fine but a stove and outdoor tap materially alter the structure of the building. As for taking out your white goods and discarding some of them, that's theft!

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DrDonkey Registered User
#182

dmcguq10 said:
Trying to find a unfurnished property to rent is near impossible.



Seems so, even though it should suit both landlords and long term tenants.


Any ideas why this is?


I did hear that it was illegal to rent unfurnished here, but I assumed that this was an urban myth... ?

the_syco Registered User
#183

dmcguq10 said:
If I could give these tenants advice it would be do not make any cosmetic renovations to the property as its just not worth it.

Don't upgrade what you don't own.

DrDonkey said:
I did hear that it was illegal to rent unfurnished here, but I assumed that this was an urban myth... ?

Myth. Have seen unfurnished lets. It's just that the Irish expect the place to be furnished.

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tradesman Registered User
#184

the_syco said:
Don't upgrade what you don't own.


Myth. Have seen unfurnished lets. It's just that the Irish expect the place to be furnished.


Theres some unfurnished houses in Thurles Tipperary! Lol

FishOnABike Registered User
#185

kaji said:
I only read the first page of this thread, but as the owner of a house- I would not be happy if they made all of those changes. I watch a lot of those "nightmare tenant" programmes and see a lot of people shouting abuse that they won't move out cos they think they have a right to stay in the property because of changes they made. What reason could they possibly have to change the locks? That's ridiculous. I'd evict them before they are there for 6 months, say you have to fix the place up because of urgent structural damage or that your sibling needs the house and it's partly in their name (lie).


If you watch "nightmare tenant" programmes you will see nightmares. OP needs to talk to the tenant about the changes and address the matter objectively, not engage in hysteria based on too much tabloid TV.

If the OP decides the appropriate course of action is to terminate the tenancy (and I'm in no way suggesting it is) it needs to be done strictly according to the law.

Giving a false reason for terminating a tenancy could leave the OP open to a claim for unlawful eviction. Advising them to lie, using reasons given in the residential tenancies act, is very poor advice.

OP needs to discuss the changes with the tenant and make any decision based on reality rather than wild speculation. Provided the OP is happy with the outcome of any discussions with the tenant there is no need to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

the_pen_turner Registered User
#186

tradesman said:
Theres some unfurnished houses in Thurles Tipperary! Lol


sadly there will be loads more money spent on furniture for those

dennyk Registered User
#187

DrDonkey said:
I did hear that it was illegal to rent unfurnished here, but I assumed that this was an urban myth... ?


Urban myth, most likely; it's perfectly legal to rent unfurnished, you'll just have a lot fewer potential tenants. However, due to the minimum rental standards, you can't go full German here, so that might be what you heard; landlords are required to supply the standard kitchen gear (stove, fridge, freezer, microwave, kitchen cupboards, and sink) and a washer (and dryer, if there's no private garden).

DrDonkey Registered User
#188

dennyk said:
Urban myth, most likely; it's perfectly legal to rent unfurnished, you'll just have a lot fewer potential tenants. However, due to the minimum rental standards, you can't go full German here, so that might be what you heard; landlords are required to supply the standard kitchen gear (stove, fridge, freezer, microwave, kitchen cupboards, and sink) and a washer (and dryer, if there's no private garden).



Yes, might be that. It seems a bit silly because somebody moving with their furniture and looking to rent will most likely have their own white goods (not stove, sink and kitchen cupboards, but fridge, washer and microwave etc.).

crossmolinalad Registered User
#189

dennyk said:
Urban myth, most likely; it's perfectly legal to rent unfurnished, you'll just have a lot fewer potential tenants. However, due to the minimum rental standards, you can't go full German here, so that might be what you heard; landlords are required to supply the standard kitchen gear (stove, fridge, freezer, microwave, kitchen cupboards, and sink) and a washer (and dryer, if there's no private garden).



Cant understand that the irish want to live , sit , eat of or sleep on the "rubbish" from someone else
Every house I have rented here I refurbished them all getting rid of the horrible Magnolia walls ugly flowering or horrible colored carpets , wonderfull horrible "stars and stripes" curtains , chubby lampshades on cord at the sealing ,dirty whitegoods wich some has seen worldwar2 , beds where unknown people sleep in "burnt in" 4 rings hob and oven
No thanks everything out and own stuff in
And no its no theft because when I moving out he gets al of his "nice" stuf back on the places where I found it
And from all of the houses I rented the landlords all have paid me for the flooring curtains and the ceiling lights when I left the house
This house where I live in now gots a bit further
Did put in a brand new bathroom old one was dirty not be able to clean and from the seventies
He wanted to do it himselves but then I had to move out (the law I believe) so I said no thanks and did it myself by a qualified builder/plummer

there is a nice stove with backboiler and radiators in it but im working on daytime so last winter I bought 3 storage heaters and replaced them where they ever were in the past , all the connections and the night meter were still there so no extreme improvements
if he wants it I take them out again and repaint the wall if I move out

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Ray Palmer Registered User
#190

dennyk said:
Urban myth, most likely; it's perfectly legal to rent unfurnished, you'll just have a lot fewer potential tenants. However, due to the minimum rental standards, you can't go full German here, so that might be what you heard; landlords are required to supply the standard kitchen gear (stove, fridge, freezer, microwave, kitchen cupboards, and sink) and a washer (and dryer, if there's no private garden).

So to be clear you can't rent unfinished here due to minimum requirements. Calling it full German doesn't change what unfinished means.
The idea a tenant can throw out what is there and replace it with their own is the urban legend. The landlord must supply the equipment and has to repair it.
In this case the tenant has left the landlord in a situation where if they take their appliances he must replace everything.
I have had tenants "replace" broken white goods that they broke and wonder why they are not getting a full deposit back. A new €400 washing machine replaced with a €50 second hand one after 2 years is not normal wear and tear. I am of course the bad landlord throwing cheap goods in the property is what people assume here.

professore Registered User
#191

MSVforever said:
Are these guys Irish?

Just asking as in other countries this would be allowed.
In Germany you basically rent the shell and can nearly do what you want with the place.
However after ending the tenancy they must change everything back as it was beforehand.


The difference is the units are generally unfurnished - there is generally an oven, but that's it. And you don't have to paint the walls back to the original colour, just remove all your own furniture. So it's a lot easier than here. It actually makes a lot more sense as people get cheaper accommodation and they already have all their own furniture if/when they do buy a house.

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Ray Palmer Registered User
#192

professore said:
The difference is the units are generally unfurnished - there is generally an oven, but that's it. And you don't have to paint the walls back to the original colour, just remove all your own furniture. So it's a lot easier than here. It actually makes a lot more sense as people get cheaper accommodation and they already have all their own furniture if/when they do buy a house.

Easier for who? The amount of stuff left behind by tenants as is can be bad enough without them leaving furniture behind. I know to check the attic before returning deposits because I have been stung before. Had to remove 6 large black bags of used nappies left in a flat once.

In Germany you also have provide your own kitchen and have insurance for any damage your installation causes to the property or neighbours property.

professore Registered User
#193

Ray Palmer said:
Easier for who? The amount of stuff left behind by tenants as is can be bad enough without them leaving furniture behind. I know to check the attic before returning deposits because I have been stung before. Had to remove 6 large black bags of used nappies left in a flat once.

In Germany you also have provide your own kitchen and have insurance for any damage your installation causes to the property or neighbours property.


I don't think you understand. The tenants don't leave their stuff behind, they take it all with them. It's their stuff !!!! Why would they buy fridges, dishwashers, beds, sofas etc and leave them with you???? You don't provide any furniture!

Easier for everyone involved. For a landlord, you walk in and see if everything is clean and empty and then you're good to go. Here all your stuff could have hidden damage or stuff hidden everywhere.

For a tenant, much harder for the landlord to withhold a deposit by saying that the tenant broke or lost stuff that wasn't there in the first place.

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GGTrek Registered User
#194

dennyk said:
DrDonkey said:
I did hear that it was illegal to rent unfurnished here, but I assumed that this was an urban myth...  ?


Urban myth, most likely; it's perfectly legal to rent unfurnished, you'll just have a lot fewer potential tenants. However, due to the minimum rental standards, you can't go full German here, so that might be what you heard; landlords are required to supply the standard kitchen gear (stove, fridge, freezer, microwave, kitchen cupboards, and sink) and a washer (and dryer, if there's no private garden).

This is practically most of the stuff and most prone to breaks that has to be provided by landlord: full kitchen with working white appliances and full bathroom and heating system.  Most of the repairs will be on the items required by the law (i.e. the landlord provides) since they contain electrical and mechanical items subject to intensive use and therefore breakage. It is not possible to really let unfurnished in Ireland: most Irish people have no idea of what unfurnished means, this is an unfurnished kitchen in other countries:

The materials and workmanship of the rented apartments are surely better than most Irish ones, but the tenant is expected to fit the place at great expense. Rent is also much cheaper and leases much longer because tenant has to recoup his/her expenses and Wear&tear Irish/UK BS also does not fly: apartment has to be returned painted in a professional way and in the same conditions it was rented out. Again Irish legislation has incorporated a status quo of fully furnished apartments or houses and most Irish tenants really do not have the mentality to deal with: (a) a long lease of 8-10 years (b) maintenance of the place. The ones who do are actually called buyers 
 
If OP is a professional landlord (which it appears he is not), he should immediately issue warning notice followed by eviction if "improvements" are not reversed. His tenants are going though a very dangerous path (dangerous for the landlord). I had a tenant in 2015 (much worse than the ones of the OP) who made some serious changes (new tiling of bathroom and kitchen up to ceiling, because he could not bother to open the windows) without my permission and then he had the audacity to send me the bill to pay. Guess what: he was quickly evicted and RTB adjudicator fully approved. I said it before: the law in Ireland is (rightly so) very much against tenants who perform repairs/renovations without permission and/or who do not pay rent, the problem is the appeal system, but the RTA is (rightly so) quite strict on these issues.

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professore Registered User
#195

GGTrek said:

The materials and workmanship of the rented apartments are surely better than most Irish ones, but the tenant is expected to fit the place at great expense.


Rent is insanely expensive in Ireland and UK compared to most places in Europe. Rent is a Great Expense. A couple of grand would get you kitted out with furniture and appliances which you then own. People are paying that here every month in rent!

GGTrek said:
Rent is also much cheaper and leases much longer because tenant has to recoup his/her expenses and Wear&tear Irish/UK BS also does not fly: apartment has to be returned painted in a professional way and in the same conditions it was rented out. Again Irish legislation has incorporated a status quo of fully furnished apartments or houses and most Irish tenants really do not have the mentality to deal with: (a) a long lease of 8-10 years (b) maintenance of the place. The ones who do are actually called buyers 


If rent was €800 - €1000 month for a family size house or apartment with secure tenancy and inflation linked rent increases - as it is in many parts of Europe - then that would drastically change the landscape. I would never consider renting long term here but would quite happily do it in parts of Europe.

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