Sleepy Registered User
#316

So, basically, between them the 121 citizens of the island are likely contributing less than €374,022 in income tax towards the cost of providing them with essential services, education etc. That'd barely cover the cost of the teachers in the schools, nevermind maintaining a harbour, roads,subsidising their ferry etc. It's a parasitic existence.

wexandproud Registered User
#317

aquickword said:
So it's possible then that the boat could end up more unstable in the water if alterations were made to allow it to carry cargo. The point I'm making is that more money would have to be spent making these alterations , whereas the Tor mor doesn't need these done or indeed to pass inspection as it is at the moment. So would it not have made more sense to spend the money on the younger of the 2 boats and made some small upgrades where they might have been needed. Might have saved a lot of arguments and problems in the long run. To me that would have been the most logical thing to do.

carry cargo would probably add to the stability as it would be placed as low as possible on the boat .If you ever notice a large ferry being loaded , all the heavy lorries are put on the lower decks and all vehicles are evenly spread . .even big container ships have a plan for loading and unloading , they don't just grab containers and throw them on anywhere

wexandproud Registered User
#318

PRidley said:
The modifications could also make the vessel more stable - it depends what they are. What matters is that they will be designed and approved using facts rather than opinions and approved by the Marine Trandport Department before the boat can run on the route. I don’t understand how people from an island who should have a good understanding of maritime issues could envisage a situation where professionals would risk their reputation by designing and certifying an unsafe boat.

If the new operator is able to buy a boat and spend more money on it than the Tor more operator would have to, in order to make his boat suitable for approval by the marine transport department, one must wonder why the Tor more operator wasn’t more competitive in the tender.

If the logic in your post was followed the Tor more would be awarded the contract without competition. That wouldn’t be a proper use of taxpayers money. It would only suit a few people with vested interests.


while the stability test and particularly the calculation are complicated at least somebody else here knows something about the principals of it , and how a licence is granted . It's not as if some one is granted the tender , goes off and finds a boat and shouts '' all aboard ''

aquickword Registered User
#319

wexandproud said:
while the stability test and particularly the calculation are complicated at least somebody else here knows something about the principals of it , and how a licence is granted . It's not as if some one is granted the tender , goes off and finds a boat and shouts '' all aboard ''


The point i'm making is a tender was grated to the boat before any work or modifications were carried out and passed. I believe work is still being carried out on the boat. Would you get an NCT for a vehicle if work was still being carried out on it?

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aquickword Registered User
#320

PRidley said:
From Department of Education website there were 4 - four - students there in 2016/2017. There is no information on the number of teachers.


So now the children of the Island are being targeted for getting an education. Have you absolutely no shame at all? Are they supposed to swim the 9 miles to the mainland to get their basic education that every child on this Island that we call Ireland is entitled to? It's not just one island its every islands right to have an education for their children. The user Sleepy is aptly named for thinking that to solve the problem whole communities should be uprooted and moved to the mainland. The narrow mindedness of some people astounds me.

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Bob_Marley Registered User
#321

Sleepy said:
Has anyone got a figure for how heavily subsidised each islander is? Given that there's only around 100 residents, their contribution to the exchequer must be pretty insignificant in comparison to the cost of their public services.

The CSO puts the Island's population at 142.

From a quick google 5, 7 and 15 students were enrolled in the Naionra, primary and secondary schools respectively as of 2016.
Taking the National Average of 11.7% of the population being over 65 that would give a (conservative?) estimate of 17 Pensioners

That would leave 98 adults of working age and infants too young to attend education. Even if we were to assume that 100% of these islanders were private sector workers earning the average full time wage of €45,611 (wildly unrealistic given we know there are at least 10 teachers, mainland Donegal's generaly low salary levels and high unemployment rates but we're ignoring property, motor tax, VAT, corporation tax etc. so for the sake of simplicity we'll move on).

That'd give a total income tax level of about €1,110,732 per annum. It's not an insignificant sum to an individual but when you consider this has to cover the cost of funding the schools, pay for the PHN and other emergency services, subsidise the ferry and helicopter services, maintain public infrastructure on the island (not much in the way of roads but harbours aren't cheap to maintain) not to mention cover their share of the cost of running central and local government, the civil service, servicing the national debt etc. it wouldn't come near to the islanders paying their way.

Our society should, and largely does (even if not to the standard most of us would like) take care of our sick, infirm and disabled. It's in all of our best interest to invest in areas of social deprivation in order to try and break the cycle of lifelong welfare dependence, poverty and crime.

Why though, should we subsidise the lifestyle choices of those who simply want to live in isolated places? What benefit to society is there in funding this?

("Preserving the Irish language" isn't a valid answer btw, we already waste a fortune on that in our education system, nonsensical translations of public documents etc. and the only increases in interest in the language that I can see is as a barrier to social inclusion to make "nice" middle class parents feel better about their offspring not having to share a classroom with those of immigrants.)


You think you know the price of everything, but you clearly know the value of nothing. By your logic, everyone left in the rest of Ireland should be moved to Dublin.

There's also plenty of disadvantaged areas in Dublin that don't pay their net way either in terms of taxes, if you want to go down that route, then actually no money should be spent outside certain post codes in Dublin, and the postcode areas that certain multinational corporations fill in on their tax returns to avail of the specially constructed low tax rates for them. Looks like the Banana Republic is still alive and well.

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Widdensushi Registered User
#322

aquickword said:
So now the children of the Island are being targeted for getting an education. Have you absolutely no shame at all? Are they supposed to swim the 9 miles to the mainland to get their basic education that every child on this Island that we call Ireland is entitled to? It's not just one island its every islands right to have an education for their children. The user Sleepy is aptly named for thinking that to solve the problem whole communities should be uprooted and moved to the mainland. The narrow mindedness of some people astounds me.


I googled the school and all I found was that an extension was opened in 2006 at a cost of 1 million, at that time there was fifteen students and seven teachers. It seems an excessive expenditure for few students. It's not practical to provide every person in the country with what they are entitled to unfortunately.

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wexandproud Registered User
#323

aquickword said:
The point i'm making is a tender was grated to the boat before any work or modifications were carried out and passed. I believe work is still being carried out on the boat. Would you get an NCT for a vehicle if work was still being carried out on it?

. but the tender would not have been granted to a boat it would have been given to a person , persons or company and they might have named the boat in the application process , the contract would have been awarded , its then up to the service provider to provide a surveyed and certified vessel to fulfill the tender conditions . Like when a builder tenders for a large construction job , he might not have all the machinery to do the job but would source it when and if he is given the contract . There is a town bus service down here which is relatively new , the people who won the contract to provide it didn't even have a bus when they won the contract
the awarding of the contract would be a totally separate process that the licencing of the vessel

PRidley Registered User
#324

aquickword said:
The point i'm making is a tender was grated to the boat before any work or modifications were carried out and passed. I believe work is still being carried out on the boat. Would you get an NCT for a vehicle if work was still being carried out on it?


No, but the difference is that the proposed boat won’t be used until the new contract starts. It is only at that point that the licenses and approvals must be in place. Same with NCT - you only need it when you drive a car on a public road.

Using your logic you would expect all work to be done before the tender. What would happen if someone else won the contract.

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aquickword Registered User
#325

Widdensushi said:
I googled the school and all I found was that an extension was opened in 2006 at a cost of 1 million, at that time there was fifteen students and seven teachers. It seems an excessive expenditure for few students. It's not practical to provide every person in the country with what they are entitled to unfortunately.


Did google also tell you what the alternative is? Most if not all of the children that attended the school from the period you mentioned have now got jobs because of their education and are currently working on the mainland paying their taxes like everyone else. Are they not entitled to live were they were born have families of their own and give them the same education they received themselves?

PRidley Registered User
#326

aquickword said:
So now the children of the Island are being targeted for getting an education. Have you absolutely no shame at all? Are they supposed to swim the 9 miles to the mainland to get their basic education that every child on this Island that we call Ireland is entitled to? It's not just one island its every islands right to have an education for their children. The user Sleepy is aptly named for thinking that to solve the problem whole communities should be uprooted and moved to the mainland. The narrow mindedness of some people astounds me.


How did my post target the children of the island? I merely stated that there were 4 pupils in the post primary school in 2016/2017. I didn’t give any opinion on whether I thought that was an acceptable use of taxpayers money or not. Neither did I give an opinion on the possible effects of the small numbers on the limited social interaction of the pupils. Of course, stating facts can get in the way of your emotive “the whole world is against us” comments.

I don’t understand why you reference another poster in your response to my post. If you have a comment to make on their posts please respond to their posts directly.

ohnonotgmail Registered User
#327

aquickword said:
Did google also tell you what the alternative is? Most if not all of the children that attended the school from the period you mentioned have now got jobs because of their education and are currently working on the mainland paying their taxes like everyone else. Are they not entitled to live were they were born have families of their own and give them the same education they received themselves?


given the pupil teacher ratio i'm not surprised they got such a good education. If only other pupils were so lucky.

PRidley Registered User
#328

aquickword said:
Are they not entitled to live were they were born have families of their own and give them the same education they received themselves?


The reality for most of us in the real world is that we cant live where we were born, have families of our own and give them the same education we received. More often than not we have to move away from where we were born so that we can work and earn money to raise and educate our families.

If we decide to stay where we were born we have to put up with poorer services and opportunities for ourselves and our children. We don’t have any entitlements in this world - but we do have choices. We make those and live with the consequences - just like those who wish to live where they were born.

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aquickword Registered User
#329

PRidley said:
No, but the difference is that the proposed boat won’t be used until the new contract starts. It is only at that point that the licenses and approvals must be in place. Same with NCT - you only need it when you drive a car on a public road.

Using your logic you would expect all work to be done before the tender. What would happen if someone else won the contract.


If you mean by someone else winning the contract that has a boat already capable of doing the service without needing any work or alterations, then i would say well done for having the foresight to have the boat ready. My logic is this; if i was wanted to hire a machine for doing a particular job i wouldn't be hiring from a Company that told me they had the machine but it needs to be altered and upgraded when my other option is a Company that has what i'm asking for on hand already.

wexandproud Registered User
#330

aquickword said:
If you mean by someone else winning the contract that has a boat already capable of doing the service without needing any work or alterations, then i would say well done for having the foresight to have the boat ready. My logic is this; if i was wanted to hire a machine for doing a particular job i wouldn't be hiring from a Company that told me they had the machine but it needs to be altered and upgraded when my other option is a Company that has what i'm asking for on hand already.

the boat will be ready when the time comes . you wouldn't go and hire a machine before you had a job on the chance you might have work

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