take everything Registered User
#121

Fair play to some other prominent Muslim figures in Ireland for calling out the unacceptability of what this guy says.

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bluewolf Category Moderator
#122

take everything said:
Fair play to some other prominent Muslim figures in Ireland for calling out the unacceptability of what this guy says.


Yeah I'm glad that other lad issued a fatwa against it. This ali guy seems crazy.
The irish times had an article from someone else a few years back defending the practice as well. What is wrong with people

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Pherekydes Registered User
#123

bluewolf said:
What is wrong with people


Rhetorical question, I'm sure, but the answer is that they don't have clitorises.

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Ipso Registered User
#124

bluewolf said:
Yeah I'm glad that other lad issued a fatwa against it. This ali guy seems crazy.
The irish times had an article from someone else a few years back defending the practice as well. What is wrong with people


Good job he didn't draw a cartoon of a religious figure or he might have got fired.

Wibbs Je suis un Rock star
#125

Pherekydes said:
Rhetorical question, I'm sure, but the answer is that they don't have clitorises.
If it were only that simple. When one looks at the various cultures that practice this barbarity it's more often than not women themselves who are the most gung ho for and resistant to any changes to the continuance of the mutilation. Indeed culturally it's typically a coming of age "ceremony" where men are completely excluded(just like women are completely excluded in cultures where male circumcisions are performed on adolescent boys). Ditto with the Chinese and foot binding that WhatdoIcare referenced. It's people within the culture that need their minds changed and that requires thinking holistically around the matter.

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Wibbs Je suis un Rock star
#126

whatdoicare said:
It definitely should not be compared with MGM, that is a different case in itself for different reasons and requires a different approach to stamp out (which I think it should be)
Funny enough W if one reads the reasons given in such cultures they're pretty much identical. The opposite sex prefer it. It's cultural. It's religious. It looks better. They won't fit in if they're not mutilated.

Jewish parents don't give their sons a circumcision to make them more marriagable
I would disagree somewhat. That's certainly an aspect to it. It signifies belonging to the common culture/faith. A Jewish woman finding out her Jewish boyfriend has an intact penis would not go down well on a few levels and he would be less "marriageable". It would be akin to a Christian woman finding out her Christian boyfriend wasn't baptised.
and I'm sorry to say it has become very fashionable in America for what reason I have no idea.
Interesting story. It became fashionable in the West in the late 19th century. It was seen as "cleaner", less animalistic and that it reduced sexual excitement and masturbation(grave sins and all that). Once the upper classes made it fashionable it spread rapidly. It was popular well into the 50's here in Ireland and the UK, but we and the rest of the West rejected it. The US kept it going for some reason. Some have suggested social medicine was one reason. non necessary procedures were frowned upon, but in the pay as you go US medical model it was another addition to the bill, so doctors were more likely to support it.
It's more in line with Irish Catholics baptising - it's just the done thing, seen as harmless and there's a nice ceremony, cake and a party.
Very much so. And that's hard to change attitudes around that kinda thing. Hell if you read of FGM supporters they see it in not so very different terms. It's seen as harmless, even with the most extreme form which should be clear to even the most dunderheaded is horrific. And of course is seen as the done thing.

Again, like I said earlier in the thread this is not a competition as to which is worse. Clearly FGM is. However the comparisons are pretty much identical in cultural practice and if they can't see that in say the highly educated US, how can we hope to get people to see it in the undereducated developing world. Hell in the rich Middle East, qualified doctors, some of the most educated people out there, will perform it. We have to change cultural attitudes and part of that is recognising engrained cultural attitudes closer to home in the west, teasing them out and seeing why we continue to believe them.

Muslims circumsize (I may be wrong here but it's what I was told) their sons because the idea came about even though it's not in the Qur'an that Muhammad was circumsized and it is somehow required to be part of Islam.
Mostly because it was a practice in the Middle East for centuries(blood sacrifice to deity and such. FGM varied with time and place). This was noted by the Greeks thousands of years before Islam. And it is to the Greeks and Romans that Christians can thank for it being removed from Christianity as a religious requirement. It was heavily debated early on, but since the GrecoRomano world regarded any form of genital mutilation as the preserve of utter barbarians, they rejected it. They also got rid of the near fetishistic dietary requirements too. Romans loved their pork. Islam because it came from the ME and wasn't filtered through the Classical world continued it(if anything to delineate themselves from the Classical world).

Again, in both these circumstances, if the religious leaders condemn it and it becomes unpopular amongst their peers then it would probably be ended.
Thankfully more hope for FGM there as the Islamic requirements in the texts are extremely scant and debatable. One Hadith(sayings of the prophet) IIRC. Even in that he says only a "nick" and leave what gives pleasure. Never mind that far more Muslims don't practice it than do. Plus it's also practiced among non Muslims in Africa.


On the religious based front male circumcision will be a much harder nut to crack. It is in the Muslim and Jewish texts as a religious requirement and a personal covenant with god. I honestly can't see a way for them around it. The cultural practice in the US could be a thing of the past though. It's already waning in popularity among a few cultural and ethnic groups within the US.

Culture is a strong influence. EG South Korea. Before the Korean War Koreans didn't practice male circumcision, but with the American influence that changed and rapidly. Now they're one of the highest advocates of the practice. Though it shouldn't take much of a shift for it to go back to previous levels.

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jmayo Registered User
#127

bluewolf said:
Yeah I'm glad that other lad issued a fatwa against it. This ali guy seems crazy.
The irish times had an article from someone else a few years back defending the practice as well. What is wrong with people


Maybe if you bothered reading some of the posts about him in Politics and Politics Cafe forums you might have realised a little sooner what type of guy Dr Ali Selim is.
Of course all of us that did draw attention to him and his cohorts, were labelled as racists and islamophobes.

It was often highlighted how he has in the past refused to condemn islamist terrorists including 9/11 and 7/7 attacks.
Hell at one stage he refused to condemn bin Laden as a terrorist.
He was very quick to threaten legal action if anyone printed certain cartoons.
Yet he was given free reign to get his views across in our major print media and on our airwaves.

This is the same guy that came out and started talking about strict segregation for muslim girls in schools and said that sharia law should be brought into Ireland if there was muslim majority.

And suddenly after all of that the penny has finally dropped with some people including it appears his employers.

I guess you just have to p**s off certain people in a certain way for something to happen.

BTW does anyone know if his opinions are shared by his sometimes boss, one Hussein Halawa ?

PS he is not crazy.
He just speaks what a lot of people think.
Like it or not there are a lot of people in the world that share his fooked up views.
The thing is some of us want to get keep the number of people with those views to a minimum in our country.

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nomdeboardie Registered User
#128

I have a post in the A&A forum thread that has been following this here
(to avoid cross-posting)

Mutant z Registered User
#129

kick the scum who do this vile act out of the country or imprison them.

c.p.w.g.w Registered User
#130

Muslim's speaking out against the wrongs of other Muslim's is very important if Muslim's and non Muslims are ever to coexist, especially in the current climate of fear mongering by bottom feeders like farage, le pen, Hopkins etc and genuine threats from extremist Muslim factions.

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Mutant z Registered User
#131

The PC brigade well and truly have egg on their faces far too busy calling those who called out these guys for what they are islamophobes well look who it is who have been proven right all along.

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baylah17 Registered User
#132

Mutant z said:
The PC brigade well and truly have egg on their faces far too busy calling those who called out these guys for what they are islamophobes well look who it is who have been proven right all along.


Bulls hit.
FGM is vile and horrific but it NOT just an issue within Islam,it is practised in non Muslim cultures too.
But of course when the facts dont suit Islamaphobe agenda just change the facts

A 2013 UNICEF report identified 17 African countries in which at least 10 percent of Christian women and girls aged 15 to 49 had undergone FGM; in Niger 55 percent of Christian women and girls had experienced it, compared with two percent of their Muslim counterparts

By all means condemn FGM for the horror it is, but don't use it to score cheap points against a single religion

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Captain Obvious Registered User
#133

Mutant z said:
The PC brigade well and truly have egg on their faces far too busy calling those who called out these guys for what they are islamophobes well look who it is who have been proven right all along.


If you can just point out one single example of the "PC Brigade" defending people who are advocating FGM that'd be great.

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Flower124 Registered User
#134

judeboy101 said:
Ok for boys to be genitally mutilated in Ireland but not girls. Typical.

I have actually brought up this topic with men a few times. I thought it was awful that male babies were butchered. Like it's ludicrous! For what? But the men got defensive, shot me down and told me it was for hygiene purposes, so I didnt bring It up again. It was their bodies. But if you think about it , it is ludicrous.

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c.p.w.g.w Registered User
#135

Flower124 said:
I have actually brought up this topic with men a few times. I thought it was awful that male babies were butchered. Like it's ludicrous! For what? But the men got defensive, shot me down and told me it was for hygiene purposes, so I didnt bring It up again. It was their bodies. But if you think about it , it is ludicrous.


Male circumcision should also be outlawed...but its in no way as barbaric as FGM and i say that was a male...lots of adults require it for medical reasons...zero medical reason for FGM

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