Tombo2001 Registered User
#1

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/tipping-point-is-chess-really-a-sport-1.3264796

I thought this was a bit ironic coming from a guy who is principally a writer on horse racing - something that I have personally never regarded as a sport, as (i) it only exists to facilitate gambling (is there any horse race anywhere in Britain or Ireland that is purely to see which is the fastest horse, and not for the purpose of gambling) and because (ii) the horse does the running - not the guy sitting on the horse.

I'm sure he doesnt see it that way.

Anyhoo....

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mikhail Registered User
#2

I don't think it matters. The linguistic games over the definition of "sport" are boring to me. What it boils down to is this, is chess something worth devoting a little public money to? And if the answer is no, why are there supports for cricket or the national concert orchestra?

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Tombo2001 Registered User
#3

You are completely right, it doesnt matter. It is what it is.

Regarding your point,

The amount of kids I know who play football, hurling and soccer or rugby. Three of those four.

Its mad really, given that they are all very very similar in terms of the physical activity and exercise being achieved.

reunion Moderator
#4

mikhail said:
I don't think it matters. The linguistic games over the definition of "sport" are boring to me. What it boils down to is this, is chess something worth devoting a little public money to? And if the answer is no, why are there supports for cricket or the national concert orchestra?


I am against giving public money (and supports) to sports which don't have NGB status with Sport Ireland. - Cricket has this recognition (so should have the potential to receive support and money) but MMA doesn't (so shouldn't). Darts doesn't have recognition and doesn't receive money or support from Sport Ireland either.

You can argue what is and what is not a sport, but until a potential sport has applied to Sport Ireland for a NGB, it is de facto not a sport in this country. If Sport Ireland then reject the application on not meeting the criteria to be a sport, then you can start comparing/complaining that clay pigeon shooting is recognized but not chess.

Horse racing is not a sport in this country (no NGB) but does get a grant from the government each year.

I believe chess is worth devoting support and money to but only if we reach the same milestones as other sports in this country. Currently I don't believe chess is worth devoting Sport Ireland support and money to (as it doesn't have or has never applied to hold NGB status).

mikhail Registered User
#5

reunion said:
You can argue what is and what is not a sport, but until a potential sport has applied to Sport Ireland for a NGB, it is de facto not a sport in this country. If Sport Ireland then reject the application on not meeting the criteria to be a sport, then you can start comparing/complaining that clay pigeon shooting is recognized but not chess.

I know several ICU chairmen have explored this route, and been met with little more than open derision and contempt. I recall an anecdote about a TD asking whether tiddlywinks would be next. And yet, chess is supported in this way in most other European countries. I can't say I care deeply, but I find large segments of this country pretty hostile to any pastime that doesn't involve big sweaty men hitting each other, sometimes to a degree that seems surreal.

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reunion Moderator
#6

mikhail said:
I know several ICU chairmen have explored this route, and been met with little more than open derision and contempt. I recall an anecdote about a TD asking whether tiddlywinks would be next. And yet, chess is supported in this way in most other European countries. I can't say I care deeply, but I find large segments of this country pretty hostile to any pastime that doesn't involve big sweaty men hitting each other, sometimes to a degree that seems surreal.


While I get what you are saying but there will always be negative people or people with negative opinions. If that stops us taking action, we won't get anything done.

There is a huge difference between opinion and action. That TD can make a comment however once an application is submitted, it can't fail on the TDs opinion.

I believe if chess was put forward we would have some more merit than [insert other activity] due to being recognised by the Olympic council, the Sports Ireland act of 2015 being changed to reflect the European definition and so on.

If I had time, money and a law degree, it'd be interesting to submit it, as you could apply to the Irish courts for discrimination/appeal and then the european court. Considering european courts state bridge is a sport, chess would have a possibility of getting the european court to rule chess as a sport (Sports Ireland Act was meant to reflect the european law). But none of this can happen until the ICU submit an application to Sports Ireland to be an NGB.

Tombo2001 Registered User
#7

reunion said:
I am against giving public money (and supports) to sports which don't have NGB status with Sport Ireland. - Cricket has this recognition (so should have the potential to receive support and money) but MMA doesn't (so shouldn't). Darts doesn't have recognition and doesn't receive money or support from Sport Ireland either.

You can argue what is and what is not a sport, but until a potential sport has applied to Sport Ireland for a NGB, it is de facto not a sport in this country. If Sport Ireland then reject the application on not meeting the criteria to be a sport, then you can start comparing/complaining that clay pigeon shooting is recognized but not chess.

Horse racing is not a sport in this country (no NGB) but does get a grant from the government each year.

I believe chess is worth devoting support and money to but only if we reach the same milestones as other sports in this country. Currently I don't believe chess is worth devoting Sport Ireland support and money to (as it doesn't have or has never applied to hold NGB status).


I presume you are against giving money to Sports Organizations that dont have NGB status with Sports Ireland.

The single biggest success story bar none in Ireland probably in the past 20 years is the Park Run.

To give it some context - there are now circa 20 Park Runs in the greater Dublin Area, and another 50 around the island of Ireland. Average participation is 100.

In addition there are now approx 20 Junior Park runs, again with close to 100 on average each week.

In total thats 7000 adults and 2000 kids participating in an organised sporting event every week; a resource that didnt exist ten years ago.

Whats particularly attractive about it is that it gets all ages out, not just people in their twenties. And it has nothing, afaik, to do with Athletics Ireland.

And it requires very little by way of financial resources. All you need is the park, and the volunteers.

Reason I mention it - would be nice to get more chess tables into public parks.

reunion Moderator
#8

Tombo2001 said:
I presume you are against giving money to Sports Organizations that dont have NGB status with Sports Ireland.


Yes I am against giving Sport Ireland (sports funding) money to sports that don't have a recognised NGB. I am not against other public funds being used to support other initiatives.

Tombo2001 said:

Reason I mention it - would be nice to get more chess tables into public parks.


Chess tables in parks have nothing to do with chess being/not being a sport.

ComDubh Registered User
#9

Chess is recognised as a sport 24 of the 28 EU member states. That's far more than the number recognising e.g. Gay Marriage. People are entitled to their opinion of course, but anyone who guffaws at the idea of chess as a sport is really just ignorant.

EnPassant Registered User
#10

Regarding TDs ... from the Irish Times a few months ago:

An email sent to TDs and Senators informed them that “The Ambassador of the Russian Federation H.E. Mr Maxim Peshkov has received a letter from Mr Anatoly Karpov, former Chess World Champion and Deputy Chairman of the Committee of International Affairs of the State Duma of the Russian Federation, with a request to contact Irish parliamentarians on the issue of the possible organising of an Interparliamentary Russian-Irish Chess tournament. Similar competitions are planned to be held across EU countries.”

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/miriam-lord-donnelly-pushed-out-in-ff-fight-to-stay-in-frame-1.3139554

sodacat11 Registered User
#11

When I lived in Australia I had trouble getting a permanent visa or any kind of visa entitling me to work. Eventually my employer (Gardinerchess) applied on my behalf for a sports visa. At first this was rejected on the grounds that chess was not a sport but when we proved that the Olympic Council (or Committee, I forget which) had accepted it as a sport I was granted a visa.
I don't know how anyone can claim that Darts or Horse Racing are not sports. The definition of a sport is "An activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment" Having ridden horses and thrown darts I can testify that both fill the criteria as does chess in my opinion.
Whether a sport or activity has a NGB is completely irrelevant and the sort of pedantic argument I would expect only from a fusspot.
Apart from thefunding point of view I can't see that it matters one iota whether chess is classed as a sport, a game, an art or a science. Chess is chess,that's enough.

zeitnot Registered User
#12

From the Guardian on Thursday: "Not the real deal: EU court rejects claim that bridge is a sport" (https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/oct/26/not-real-deal-eu-court-rejects-claim-bridge-sport).

The plan of suing always seemed a bit weak to me anyway. Chess easily fits all the definitions of a sport except one, and suing puts the entire focus on the weakest link. The court said the physical activity part was 'negligible'; a bit harsh, and maybe 'minimal' would be a better word. But still.

Chess and bridge make up for the minimal activity with a (corresponding?) greater reach in the eligible population, so if there's to be a campaign, it might be better to build the arguments around that. Argue that Sport Ireland should have expanded scope to cover sport and sport-related activities, where sport-related activities are ones with minimal physical activity but all the other aspects of a sport, along with other benefits such as accessibility and social inclusion.

Banrion Fichille Registered User
#13

ISC say Chess is not Tactical enough!?

The Irish Sports Council: "The ISC acknowledges that chess demonstrates many features of a Governing Body including its organisational structure, the number of participants, participation in schools, club structure, competition structure and both national and international competitions. While chess manifests some of the criteria used to recognise sport, it does not fulfil all the criteria e.g. technical, tactical, physical, physiological, outlined by the Council of Europe definition of sport by which the ISC assert recognition and therefore would not afford recognition of a governing body of sport."

If anyone has the energy to go after this again I think it may be worth it.

cdeb Moderator
#14

I don't think they're saying chess isn't tactical; I think they're saying that there are several criteria - e.g. tactical, among others - and chess doesn't fulfill them all in their opinion. It's clearly tactical (and psychological).

(Also, for clarity, that link is 3½ years old)

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