How old is Crom Dubh?
To answer that i will first quote an article from theoretical structural archaeology blog:
So first wheeled vehicles appear in the fourth millennium central Europe. But houses with wide doors and space wide and big enough for a car appear much earlier, a whole millennium earlier. The only explanation is that first cars or carts did not have wheels but sleighs.
Now here is a passage from a from folk tale "St Patric and Crom Dubh":
Crom Dubh had "a sort of yoke like a wheelless sliding car". This kind of description of Crom Dubh vehicle shows that the narrator clearly did not have an idea what that car could have been. Did whoever told the story new what the vehicle was and was that forgotten later? Or was even the first narrator constructing the story based on legends whose meaning was long lost and forgotten?
What kind of vehicle did Crom Dubh have? Well i can actually show you one:
This picture was taken about 10 years ago in south of Serbia in the mountains near the place where i was born. This is me (hi everyone ) sitting on an example of the most common means of transport in the area still to this day: "a sort of yoke like a wheelless sliding car". In this area mountain villages consist of houses strewn across the side of the mountain, so building roads is impossible.
Also even if there were roads connecting houses, local people would still have to get to their fields and forests. They would also have to be able to do that during the winter too, when the whole area is covered with over a meter of snow. The answer to this problem is sledge pulled by oxen. Here is another example from Serbia this time actually being used:
Sledge as means of transportation is perfectly suited for European climate and landscape. In early Ireland, with its hills, mountains, bogs, beaches and no roads, it would have been much easier to transport things using sledge pulled by oxen than using wheeled carts. To use wheeled carts you need hard dry ground, like desert or worm steppe or roads. Unfortunately no desert or worm steppe can be found in Ireland, and no roads were built in Ireland before mid 3rd millennium BC and even then there were only handful of them and they were probably ceremonial:
So stone age people in Ireland used oxen pulled sledges for transport. So did Crom Dubh. Did sledges disappear from Ireland with the introduction of wheeled vehicles? I doubt it considering they are still used in Serbia today. But did Crom Dubh arrive on one of these sledges from Central Europe with first wheat farmers way back in 5th or 4th millennium BC? Probably, considering that he not only had sledge pulled by oxen, but he also brought on them the first wheat and the knowledge of wheat cultivation:
Fomorians, Pomorians, Central Europeans from Pomerania, Pomorje, brought with them both the knowledge of "how and when to plough, sow and reap" and also Dabog, Hromi Daba, Crom Dubh, their main god whose fertility face was known as Crom Cruach, the god of bread.
Dublinviking, this is very interesting material but perhaps you rely a little too much on questionable sources. No serious enquiry would or should use Wikipedia as a major source. Equally, much of the material in the various Annals is open to interpretation and is itself questionable.
An enquiry of this sort is of course, significantly different from a historical enquiry in the sense that there are no primary sources apart from contextual artefacts. The case of the sled (or slipe) in Ireland for example, what ancient remains have been found to support your assertion?
Antiquity is always going to be open to a certain amount of speculation/interpretation and theories can be made to fit vague facts more easily than concrete facts.
'Outside the box' thinking can be refreshing and can throw up new ways of looking at questions but to have any substance, the information sources need to be more dependable.
It's not going to be easy to find more reliable sources of information but I wish you well in your venture and I hope you continue.
Thanks for your support.
I don't. I cross reference everything and check the sources listed in Wikipedia first. I just couldn't be bothered rewriting the stuff someone else has already written and i agree with. Collecting everything and organizing it in a way that is easy to read is job in itself without having to retype stuff from books.
This is what i wanted to ask Irish archaeologists if there are any present. But i would expect none to be found. I grew up around sledges like the ones on pictures. They can be made without any metal parts. This means that unless they sunk into some bog pit they would not be preserved through time. None were found in Serbian archaeological localities and these oxen pulled sledges have been in continuous use there probably since paleolithic times.
The line in the story of Crom Dubh that mentions "a sort of yoke like a wheelless sliding car" is so out of place that the reason it was preserved must have been because it was significant. Otherwise it would not have been retold without knowing the meaning of "a sort of yoke like a wheelless sliding car".
Another bit that sticks out in the chapter that i have quoted (and there are lots more in that story), is: "and his trickster (?) along with him". Irish word for trick is "cleas" and for trickster is "cleasaí" which is too close to Serbian word "klas" meaning "ear of wheat" and "klasje" or "klasovi" (pronounced klasye, klasovi) meaning "ears of wheat" to be ignored. Especially when the word for ear in Irish is "cluas" and word for ears is "cluasa"???
Was the actual chapter part of the original story about Crom Dubh (Cruach) bringing wheat to the people? And was the actual bit originally saying: "Crom Dubh used to come after them, carrying his ears of corn (wheat) with him, and he drawing after him a sort of yoke like a wheelless sliding car"?
Was the original "class", "cluas", "klasje, klasovi", "cluasa" meaning "ears of wheat, wheat" forgotten and later replaced with "clais", "cleasaí" meaning trick trickster? We know that it should have been wheat as Fomorians, the people who brough Crom Dubh (Cruach) are credited as people who brought wheat to Ireland. So I believe that here we have a very significant bit of history preserved in this story.
The reason why i am so confident that this is the meaning of this chapter is because everything else regarding Crom Dubh (Cruach), Lugh, Lughnasad points to Balkan origin of this cult. Particularly anything that has to do with the wheat season celebrations. I will elaborate this in next posts and things are going to become a lot clearer.
I don't believe this is outside of the box thinking really. Just thinking. I am joking of course. I have a huge advantage over Irish historians, which is that I posses knowledge of south Slavic languages and culture and archaeology of the Balkans, as well as Irish language and culture. So rally the difference is that i am probably the first to look at Ireland from the Balkans with ability to compare the languages and cultures to this extent. In that way you could say it is "outside of the box". But i still try to employ very conservative thinking and i am asking more questions than i am giving answers.
As i said before i believe there are jewels to be found here, but i need help digging. Anyone with any additional information on any of the topics touched by me is more than welcome to present them here.
Sleds or slipes and slide cars, were in use in Ireland up to the early C20th. Broadly speaking the Irish styles differ from the Serbian one you showed.
See here for a little on the Irish type.
Archaeological locality Blagotin in Serbia belongs to the earliest proto Starčevo culture period.
First bread was made in Blagotin 6000 bc. Blagotin was a city which covered one hectare and had 100 houses. Houses were built along streets which all lead to a circulars square which measured 30 meters in diameter. In its precise center was a temple, first man made temple in human history. In neolithic time temples were normally found inside of the houses, so this is extremely important development. Blagotin had no defense structures, ramparts or moats.
The temple was built 6000 years BC. It had an altar with a semi wall which separated profane space from the sacred space. There are four thrones which are positioned in absolute north south alignment, which is interesting because in the locality of Blagotin it is impossible to determine absolute north south direction based on sun and moon. In the oldest part of the altar, at the dept of 2,5 meters there was a broken deer scull with antlers positioned at a certain angle, which is the first time this appears in human history. Inside the altar we find the zigzag line which is closely connected with the cult. In the south part of the temple archaeologists found two figures of the great mother goddess facing west. They had over emphasized gluts stylized short legs and stylized deer head. This means that the sculpture presents the female principle (lower part of female body) extending into the male principle (deer head, penis) which is the earliest representation of evolution from matriarchate to patriarchate.
Among many other objects, archaeologists have found clay models of grains of wheat which were brought as votive offerings into the temple.
Archaeologists have also found tools, blades, toys and amulets.
Some jewelry found in the temple resembles ones found in the Alps, which suggests that Blagotin was an important regional (Balkan) and maybe even European religious center where people came at certain part of the year to celebrate (my comment: probably the harvest).
On one of the votive wheat grains, archaeologists have discovered an engraving which closely corresponds to the plan of the central square. This is the oldest town plan ever found:
It has been determined that people of Blagotin made and baked bread which moves the date and place of the invention of the first bread from 3000 BC in UR Mesopotamia to 6000 BC Blagotin Balkan.
Only 2.5% of the locality has been excavated so far. Dr Svetozar „Nani“ Stanković (1948 - 1996) who lead the excavation, died in 1996 and the whole archaeological site was closed and forgotten??? No one works on it and the only book published about this site is out of print. The site is not protected by Serbian government or by Unesco.
Here is a three part tv series about this archaeological site which features interview with the late Dr Svetozar „Nani“ Stanković.
This is one of the most important archaeological sites in the world and i can bet you never heard of it. If you are looking for the origin of Crom Dubh (Cruach) maybe we can start with this place where they invented bread and venerated wheat. The bread cult is still one of the most important cults in Serbia and other Slavic countries. I will talk about this later.
slowburner thanks for this link it is great. It shows that slide carts were used in Ireland, so it is plausible that this is what the story refers to. Here i am adding two excerpts from the book:
Did you notice how all the example are from the north, the land of cranogs which i already connected with the south Baltic in so many ways. Some of the types seem to be exact copies of the south Baltic ones.
What is very interesting about this is the conservatism of the rural substance farming life. What works gets used for thousands of years almost unchanged. You have an example of opanak and now sledge. I believe that these rural communities are equally conservative about their taboos, beliefs and customs as well as language. If you have a custom that you believe brings you good harvest, you will not abandon it even if official religion of the land changes. The example is Crom Dubh day and all the harvest rituals in Serbia which survived arrival of Christianity for centuries.
Something else from Starčevo culture (5th millennium BC): a votive model of a bread loaf.
It contains the oldest known solar calendar depicting the period of six months from winter solstice to summer solstice and marking the spring equinox, the beginning of the solar year and vegetative year. When the wheat starts to grow. Sun is represented with the symbol of a fire steel which is the oldest and the most wide spread symbol of the sun.
The fire steel lies under the horizontal line which represents the winter solstice. The six months period between the winter solstice and the summer solstice is represented with six lines, one for each month. These six months represent one half of the solar year and that is represented with half of the fire steel at the top of the diagram's vertical line representing summer solstice. The 45 degree angle line represents the spring equinox.
This next picture shows the position of the spring equinox in the sky depending on the position of the observer and the time of observation.
I = 2000 AD. Spring equinox is between constellations of Pisces and Aquarius
IV = 5000 BC: Spring equinox is in constellation of Taurus
So at the time when this votive bread was made (5000 BC), Sun, God, the lord of harvest was awakening every year as a bull. Is that the Bull of Crom Dubh?
And here is an example of a votive bread baked for Serbian Slava celebration, the celebration of the ancestor cult. The ancestor of the Serbs, Dabog, Hromi Daba is God, The sun, so this is why the bread is in the shape of the sun and has a ring of fire steels pointing outwards representing the sun's heat. The bread also contains the representations of the ears of wheat, kalasje, forming the "celtic" sun cross.
Irish word for sun is: " grian". Serbian verb "grijati" (pronounced greeyatee) means to heat up. "grije" (pronounced greeye) means it emits heat. "grijan" (pronounced greeyan) is that which emits heat or that which is being heated.
Fire steel, fire, sun. They give life but also connect Serbians and Irish:
greje, grije - emits heat.
sunce greje, grije - sun heats us up
sunce sine, sija - sun shines
Look at the English verb to shine. It seems again only South Slavic and Germanic languages have this word.
grejati, grijati - to heat
ogrev - firewood
grios - hot ashes
griosach - glowing
griosagh - fire
grios(c) - broil, grill
grian - sun
For grian we find this:
Do you know any other language except the Irish and South Slavic languages that have these words?
We also have these words which show that the connection between the Irish and Serbs is indeed very very old:
tine - fire
tinja - to smolder but also a verb that describes the behavior of the first small flame of fire that catches the tinder wood when a spark from the flint falls on it.
vatra tinja - fire is catching, starting its life from a spark or dying as hot coals. tinja, tine is the first fire a man managed to make, the fire which had a mind of its own, which was not easy to "catch" and which had to be conjured as if by magic. This kind of fire, made by hand, using the oldest known way of making fire by rubbing two pieces of wood against each other, or using two stones, or using stone hammer and piece of iron, or using fire steel and stone, is still called "live fire" in Serbia and is considered to have magic properties.
Live fire is made once a year in a special ceremony during the month of July which used to be called Gorešnjak, the fiery month. The ceremony was done in every village. All the fires would be extinguished in the village in the evening. All the villagers would then gather usually on top of a hill. The fire making ceremony took place in the middle of the night or just before dawn. In some parts of Serbia people were part naked. The fire was made by twins or by the oldest and the youngest brother in a family, or by two men born on the same day, or by two men with the same name...who for couple of days before the ceremony had to leave particularly clean and good life. The ceremony took place in complete silence. When the fire is finally burning strong, every woman would take a burning brunch and bring it home, where a new young fire would be lit in the house hearth. There the fire would be burning for the rest of the year, because the hearth fire in Serbia was never extinguished except just before the new live fire was about to be made or when someone dies in the house. This tradition probably comes to us from the earliest times, probably paleolithic, when making and maintaining fire was a magical and sacred duty and shows us again how resilient customs and traditions are (at least among Serbs) and how long they could be preserved.
Lighting of the live fire:
Folk names for months
Then I have these two words:
creasa - flint fire
tinechreasach - sparcling
kresati - to smash two stones against each other in such a way that their sides slide over each other making sparks. to do the same with fire steel and a stone. to make sparks.
kres - fire steel, flint
kresivo - tinder
How old is this? I believe that these words are ancient. And they prove that the connection between Serbian and Irish language is ancient as well.
There is even a Slavic god of fire called Kresnik:
St. John's Day or Ivandan (7th of July) is one of the old bonfire nights of the Slavs. This one was marking the beginning of harvest. The next one, marking the end of the harvest was on the 2nd of August on the Ilindan, the day of st Ilia, St Ilios, The holy sun day, The Crom Dubh day, Lughnasad.
In the end i would like to show you this word:
tinder - small dry sticks and finely-divided fibrous matter etc., used to help light a fire.
The etymology given is this:
Isn't it more logical that the etymology is: tinder = tine der = tine derv(o) = tinja derv(o) = wood that catches fire (derv is the Serbian root word for wood)? Word tinder does not come from tender, or tenden. They are related. You have to be tender and you have to tender in order to make (catch) live fire.
Keep an eye out for this boom, it will most likely cover a lot of what you mentioned.
Touchwood fungus, Oaks, Fire, Sun and the Drvids
Knowing the connection between the oak and the touchwood fungus and the fire and the sun and all the related words, I have to ask a question:
What were the first Drvids actually collecting in August in Oak groves?
This is the Serbian coat of Arms. It is a cross with four fire steels in the shape of the Cyrillic letter s, the first letter of the word Sunce, Sun, Sol, Sur, Swarozić, which were various names for Sun.
This is the same symbol on a battle flag, on one of medieval engraving. This time the cross is made of fire wood and the fire steel are connected with sun emanating fire. You can say this is an explanation of the true meaning of the Serbian cross: the sun's fire:
Here we see the cross made of dry rotten wooden branches from which the bark is falling off, ideal for catching fire, connected with the fire steel. Please note flames emanating from it. This is the Sun fire cross, where fire steel is in the shape of letter S meaning Sunce - Sun.
Please note how much the fire steel resembles a regal crown.
And the last is showing us an actual crown over the fire steel cross, the sun cross, the sun our lord. The regal power comes from the sun and fire. Who knows the secrets of the sun and fire rules.
In Slavic mythology the Sun is the Son of Svarog, the god of heaven. Being the son of Swarog he is Swarožić (pronounced Svarožich) where -ić is Serbian suffix meaning a son of, a descendant of. Swarožić was Slavic god of fire. But Dabog was also the son of Swarog, so Swarožić is Dabog who who is also Hromi Daba who is also Crom Dubh the sun god "God" our Sun. In Christianity, Isus Hrist is the the son of Heavenly Father. Please note that Serbian word for oak is hrast. And that apparently Hrist is supposed to mean teacher. Oak is the symbol of the sun, because oak and fire steel produce fire on earth like sun produces fire in the sky. And oak tree priests, Drvids are teachers. Is Christianity just the old European religion in disguise? Did Christianity develop as an attempt to conquer old European religion by wrapping it in a cloak of Judaisam until it became almost unrecognizable? This is a theme for another discussion.
What is very interesting is that the fire steel being a symbol of the sun is found all over the world, but that the first place it was found was in Starcevo. The first fire steal cross was found in Vinca. Here you can see it in this partial list of Vinca symbols:
And in the same row you can see the transformation between the Serbian cross and the "celtic" cross, fire and light.
Ireland sun cross with four fire steals (letters s), 2000 BC Dublin national museum:
A "celtic" cross with four fire steals (letters s)
The "son" of the heavenly father is in the center. "Sun" Swarozić, the son (sin in Serbian) of the heavenly father Svarog is shining out on the world.
In Slavic religion, Sun has another name: Vid, Svetovid, Sveti vid.
Let's go back to word druid:
Vid in Serbian has these meanings: to see, to know, to foresee, to teach, to tell stories, to heal. This one word in Serbian describes all the attributes of drvid priest.
In Slavic languages Vid can also be pronounced as Vit or Ved or Vet.
Here are the words which have Vid, Vit, Ved or Vet as their root. You can see that in the same way as the words which have "god" as their root, all the words here denote actions and attributes of a god and sun god to that. I am posting it here so you can see how important the sun god Vid was to the Serbs. Swarozić, Svetovid, Dabog are all one and the same god, Sun god, god of fire and light. They are also gods of war and gods of fertility and agriculture.
vid - site, ability to see, what god vid is lighting up - pogled, sposobnost gledanja, ono sto bog vid osvetljava
vidit, vidjen - famous, having vid looking at him, on his side - slavan, onaj koga vid gleda, na cijoj je vid strani
videti - to see, to be able to see because god vid has lit up the world for you - videti, biti sposoban da vidis jer je bog vid osvetlio svet
vidljiv - visible, lit up by god vid - ono što se vidi, ono sto je osvetlio bog vid
uvid - insight, good knowledge - dobro znanje razumevanje nečega. ovde se vidi da su znati i videti sinonimi.
uvideti - to realize, to have things, problems lit up by the light of god vid - shvatiti, biti sposoban da vidis kako stvari stoje jer ih je bog vid osvetlio svojom svetloscu
predvideti - to forsee, to be able to see the future because god vid has lit it up for you - videti buducnost jer ju je osvetlio bog vid
vidovit - clairvoyant, able to see the future because god vid has lit it up for you - sposoban da vidis buducnost jer ju je osvetlio bog vid
svideti se - be liked, be likable because god vid has made you beautiful, has lit you up with beautiful light - biti osvetljen vidovim svetlom, biti lep
zavideti - be envious, wanting to have things that vid did not give to you - hteti stvari koje vid nije namenio tebi
vit - reason, intellect - razum, pamet
dovitljiv - quick-witted, sharp witted.
dovitljivost - ability to solve problems, to come up with ideas, to be able to reach to vid and get his advice - biti sposoban da resis probleme, da iznadjes rešenja, da dodjes do vida i da od njega dobijes savet
savitljivost - elasticity, ability to adjust, to change shape, to move with god vid as he is reshaping the world - biti elastican, sposoban da se prilagodis promenama, da promenis oblik u skladu sa time kako vid menja svet oko tebe
vit - suffix meaning full of, famous for, good at. examples:
lekovit = lek + vit = medicine + full, contains, famous for = medicinal
glasovit = glas + vit = voice, good comments, fame + full = famous
darovit = darova + vit = gifts + full = gifted
osvit - down - jutro
vita (latin) - life, from vid dal meaning energy that vid gives - zivot, sto je vid dal, energija koju daje vid
here is official etymolgy so you can compare it:
vit - tall, high - visok
vitak - thin, slender
providan - see through
providjenje - providence, have things given to you by god vid - promisao, dobiti savet, omen ili znak od boga vida. takođe biti zbrinut od boga vida
nevidljiv - invisible
nevid - misery, bad luck, be invisible to god vid, not have good vid look at you, smile at you, shine at you - jad i beda, ono što se desi kad te bog ne vidi, kad ti se ne smesi, kad te ne greje njegova svetlost
obnevideti - to become blinded by emotions, mad from rage, to loose it, to loše connection with vid - postati zaslepljen negativnim emocijama, besom, mrznjom, izgubiti vezu sa bogom vidom
zanovitati, zanovetati - complain. from „zašto no vit dati” meaning „why did not vid give it” - zaliti se zato što ti vid nije nešto dao
čuvida, čuv + vida - mask, protects, saves + site, what protects us from site, from god vid - ono sto nas cuva od pogleda od boga vida
vid i vit are interchangeable and depend on the accent and dialect. Also in some dialects i turns to e so vid becomes vet, ved:
svit, svet - world, what is, what exists with the help of god vid - svet, sto jeste, sto postoji uz pomoć boga vida
svit, savit, svita - council, advice, worning - vece, savet, upozorenje
svitlo, svetlo - light, what comes from (with) god vid and lights up the world - svetlo, ono sto dolazi od boga vida i osvetljava svet
osvitliti, osvetliti - light up, shine light on things like god vid does - osvetliti kao sto to vid radi
svitiljka, svetiljka - light source, torch - izvor svetlosti, baklja
svidočiti, svedočiti - witness, be present, be in presence of someone or something which is lit up by god vid - videti svojim očima
zavitovati se, zavetovati se - to sware oath, to promise before god vid, to do it for vid - obecati, zakleti se pred bogom vidom, uraditi nešto za vida, za vid to vati
svitkovina, svetkovina - celebration, religious celebration of god vid - religiozna proslava, originalno slavljenje boga vida
savit, savet - advice how to follow god vid so things will work for you - objašnjenje kako da sledis boga vida, kako da budes sa vidom da bi ti se planovi ostvarili
savitovati, savetovati, sa vid to vati - to give advice with wisdom given to you by god vid
sviti, sveti - holly, enlightened, which is with vid, shares his light - sveti, blazeni, onaj koji se kupa u vidovom svetlu, koji
zraci vidovim svetlom, koji je sa vidom
prosvitljenje, prosvetljenje - enlightement, reaching god vid - pro s vid ti jesi, prici k, uci u, doći do boga vida, postati jedan s vidom
stanovit - certain, persistent, strong, where vid's will doesn't change - izvestan, stalan, jak, gde se vidova volja ne menja
vitez - knight, person full of highest qualities besowed to him by god vid - vitez, osoba koja poseduje najviše kvalitete koje mu je udelio bog vid
vidati - to cure, to mend, to heal, to use power of god vid (knowledge about life, energy of life, life itself like plants and miterals) to heal - leciti, popravljati, koristiti ono sto nam daje vid (znanje, zivotnu silu, zivot kao biljke i minerale) za lecenje
vidar - doctor, medicine man
vida, veda - teaching, story, knowledge, experience that vid gave us - ucenje, prica, znanje koje nam je dao bog vid
vidati, vedati - to teach, to tell a story, to talk, to pass on knowledge, experience that vid gave us - uciti nekoga, pricati pricu, pricati, predavati znanje i iskustvo koje nam je dao bog vid
vidati, vedati - to understand. here vid is equated with reason, mind - razumeti. ovde se vid izjednacuje sa umom
povidati, povedati - talk, tell stories, tell about what we saw, what we experienced, what god vid made happen - pricati, pricati price o onome sto smo videli, sto smo iskusili, sto je vid učinio da se desi
zapovidati, zapovedati - to command, make others do things, like vid does - komandovati, narediti drugima da nešto urade, kao sto to vid radi
se vidi, se vida, se veda - it is understood, of cours - naravno, razume se
odvid - answer - odgovor
providati, svidati - worry about something - brinuti se za nešto
svidati se - to regain conciesness, to reunite with vid - osvestiti se, ponovo se povezati sa bogom vidom
sviditi se - to regain conciesness, to like something, to become convinced of something - osvestiti se, zavoleti nešto,
osvedociti se - to see something with your own eyes - uveriti se u nešto
vistovit - conscious - svestan
svidok, svedok - withness, someone who saw something, someone who experienced something, someone who was with god vid - svedok, neko ko je iskusio nešto, neko ko je bio s vidom
svidocanstvo - proof - dokaz
ispovidati, ispovedati - to confess, to tell god vid about your sins - ispovediti se, reci bogu vidu svoje grehe
propovidati, propovedati - to preach, to let vid talk through you - dozvoliti da vid govori kroz tebe
vitija - poem, something containing vit - pesma, ono sto poseduje vit
vitiznanec - poet - pesnik
vitar, vetar - wind
viti se - to flap, fly in the wind, to be high up - leprsati, leteti na vetru, biti visoko
nadviti se - to lean over, to be higher than. from here we can see that vid, vit also means high- nadneti se, biti visi. odavde vidimo da vit, vid takođe znaci visok
pravedan - just
krivedan - unjust
vedar - bright, clear, happy,
zaveden - enchanted
naveden - persuaded
sveden - narrowed down, brought to it's essence, core
ved, vedene, vedihu - news - vesti
sazvedavec - curious - radoznao
zvedati - find out - saznati
vedriti - to clear, to clean - cistiti
vedriti - be powerful - biti mocan
izvedikovati se - to become skillful - izvestiti se
vedro - bucket, vessel for water. zašto se vedro zove vedro? da li je voda veda, vedra, prozirna cista?
proveden - moment spent
priveden - brought close to, doveden - brought here, odveden - taken away, izveden - brought out, uveden - brought in. from here ved is presence, here, now
rasvediti se - to get ill, sick - razboleti se
izvedljiv - curious - radoznao
kleveta - lie about someone, slander - laz
osveta - revenge
odvetak - inheritor, someone who gets something as inheritance - naslednik
posvetiti - dedicate - nameniti
veten - promised, dedicated - obecan, namenjen
from here you can see that vet, vit, vid also means to give, to bestow, to give as a present, to promise, to dedicate - odavde se vidi da vet, vit, vid takođe znaci dati, pokloniti, nameniti,obecati
posvetilište - mystery - misterija
posvetilište - sacrifice - žrtva
šakovet, rukovet - hand full, arm full - koliko stane u šaku, koliko stane u ruke.
from here you can see that vet, vit, vid also means full - odavde se vidi da vet, vit, vid znaci pun
svetište - temple, the place of god Vet, Vid - crkva, mesto boga Veta, Vida
vet, vid - sun god
vet - this, it - taj, to
vetov - old - star
avet - ghost, apparition, something which has no vid in itself whre a is prefix that gives the opposite meaning. here opposite from being alive - duh, nešto ne zivo, nešto sto nema vida u sebi
istovetan - the same, made in the same way - isti, jednak
in russian privet means with vet, with god, god Vid, Vet be with you - na ruskom привет sa vetom, sa vidom, s bogom, pozdrav
Sve to vid - all that see - good who sees all. He is represented with four sided pillar but also with the cross with four fire steels.
Serbian medieval medalion:
Irish high crosses:
Please note the "hat" on top of Svetovid's column as well as on these "celtic" crosses. That is actually a loaf of bread. Sun supports the tree of life, and the Sun god is also the god of plenty, the god of agriculture and bread. I will talk about this more in my next post. And here is an example from Ireland of the tree of life growing from a fire steel, the symbol of sun god Vid, Svarozic, Hromi Daba, Dabog, Crom Dubh, Dagda:
Please note that the two places in Germany mentioned in the text both fall withing the Slavic territory occupied by Western Slavs Sorbs. In Serbia, the "Live fire" is used for curing animals as well. There is a curious custom that had survived until 1950 near Belgrade:
"A tunnel was dug big enough for cattle to go through. Then a live fire was lit at one of it's ends. The cattle was pushed through the tunnel towards the live fire, where people wold touch every animal that appeared from the tunnel with a burning brunch to protect it from diseases. This is a ceremonial rebirth where both mother Earth and father Sun, in the form of live fire, are invoked"
Does anyone know of any other parts of Europe where these live fires were lit? So far it seems that the custom is only found in Slavic lands and Ireland and Scotland and north England, the exact places where we see repeated colonisation from south Baltic Western Slavic people, Sorbs.
It is incorrect to assume that Germanic practices and customs related to the need fire are of Slavic origin. The mythology surrounding need fires is in all Germanic cultures including Norse mythology and the Freya/fro goddess. There are historical records of need fires in Sweden.
See chapter ii of this book:
Obviously i am not assuming anything i am stating the extent of my knowledge on the subject. I am asking for more information. Then you say:
I don't know who is assuming things here. You are taking an ancient pan European religious practice and calling it "germanic" just because it is found in some "germanic" countries???
This practice of drawing the live fire, is also found in Hittite records from 2000 BC, to it definitely predates any "germanic" practices. The practice is found in all Slavic lands, hardly place where you could find too many "germanic" religious practices.
Here is a picture showing drawing live fire from Serbia:
But there is a particular type of cleaning practice involving living fire, living water and earth, used for cleaning of people and animals which is also recorded in Hittite records and which, to my knowledge is only found in one more place: eastern Serbia, the land of King Trayan with goats ears. It is similar to the cattle cleaning practices from the area around Belgrade, but more complex:
A tunnel was dug big enough for people and cattle to go through. Then a live fire was lit at one of it's ends. The cattle was pushed through the tunnel towards the live fire, where people wold touch every animal that appeared from the tunnel with a burning brunch to protect it from diseases and bad energy. In Hittite records people were greeted at the end of the tunnel by an old woman (baba) and given bread. In Serbia they were greeted by a "babica" and given porridge. The ceremony took place next to the spring so that "live water" would take the rest of the bad energy, sickness and sins away. This is a ceremonial rebirth where both mother Earth and her water and father Sun and his fire, are invoked to clean people and animals.
Remember all the other things we found which exist in British isles, Central Europe and are also found in Hittite records as well? Do you see the pattern emerging???
I am looking forward to reading about this custom in the book you recommended.
This is the first chapter i read from your book. Did you actually read it yourself?
Drawing of live fire is an ancient practice. Fire came from Agni, the fire of the sky.
Oganj is the Serbian word meaning fire.
Now have a look which "Indo Europeans" use words related to *h₁ngʷni-:
No Germanic languages.
Now have a look who received the fire from Agni: Bhrigu.
Bregians, Phrigians, Frigians, Balkan, south Baltic, British Isles, Asia minor...
Quote from dubviking'Please note that the two places in Germany mentioned in the text both fall withing the Slavic territory occupied by Western Slavs Sorbs. In Serbia, the "Live fire" is used for curing animals as well. There is a curious custom that had survived until 1950 near Belgrad'
First off you did imply that slavs influenced german traditions in this respect.see above quote.
Secondly yes ive read all that book and overall its very interesting.
Thirdly it doesnt disagree with anything in my last post or any other ive written in this thread so how you deduce that I havent read it is beyond me.
Fourthly I have no idea what your point about agni is.