creedp Registered User
#46

djpbarry said:
But that assumes the economy remains fixed in size and make-up - it doesn't. People moving into an economy to work create demand for more good and services, creating more jobs.



I'll certainly defer to your expertise here but I would have thought that a large influx of people into Ireland during a boom where a large proportion of these people ended up working in an unsustainable building industry that has since collapsed would have a certain distortionary impact on the labour market.

djpbarry Moderator
#47

liammur said:
I never said there are 'no' jobs. Of course there jobs, but there is not a job for every single young person in this country as you were alluding to.
I neither alluded to, nor said, any such thing. In fact you'll note that I emphasised the need for people to retrain.

#48

djpbarry said:
I neither to, nor said, any such thing. In fact you'll note that I emphasised the need for people to retrain.


I couldn't agree more.
But I think the big problem the country faces is getting employment into towns like portlaois etc

The 'gateways'...anyone remember that nugget?

djpbarry Moderator
#49

creedp said:
...I would have thought that a large influx of people into Ireland during a boom where a large proportion of these people ended up working in an unsustainable building industry that has since collapsed would have a certain distortionary impact on the labour market.
It will of course have an impact, but I think it’s questionable that it would necessarily be a negative (or distortive) impact. Let’s just clarify that the property boom was obviously not a good thing, but, it happened. A demand for labour was created and that demand was met by overseas workers. Personally, I don’t see that as a bad thing. Regardless of the industry, a labour shortage generally leads to increased salaries and, therefore, increased costs, which reduces competitiveness. Furthermore, more workers means more tax revenue and more consumers.

Furthermore, while it’s true that Ireland’s demography has changed substantially over the last 10-15 years, a lot of people who came to Ireland to work in construction have likely left again. As stated above, there are a relatively small number of non-Irish nationals unemployed in Ireland and indeed the number is declining. This makes a lot of sense when you think about it – construction is by nature a transient industry (which a lot of young Irish men seem unwilling to accept, but anyway) and if a guy moves to Ireland to work on a building project, he probably knows that once the project is complete, he may be out of work. When you throw into the mix the fact that there has been a lot of construction work going in the UK, Poland and the Ukraine ahead of the Olympics and the European Championships, for example, it makes little sense to remain unemployed in Ireland with very limited future prospects.

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paddy0090 Registered User
#50

djpbarry said:
Manufacturing and construction are two very different things, but I’d be very interested to hear how the Irish education system was geared towards construction?


In Ireland Construction is/was(this may have changed) considered part of manufacturing and included in the statistics. One of the reasons productivity was seen to be dropping was that construction is a typically low productivity industry.

I might have gotten carried away there saying that the entire Irish education system was gearded towards constuction. But secondary education includes two subjects in both junior and leaving cert curriculums. None for ICT. Also I think there was something of a self serving belief amongst some in the establishment that if it didn't deliver proper skills in literacy and numeracy it was the students destiny to labour or work in the semi skilled sector.

Post secondary level there's the paid diploma for trades, payment of course doesn't extend to other diplomas in marketing other disciplines. Many professions use the apprenticeship model (accounting, law), but the taught element usually runs concurrent to work and payment is inclusive of study time and exams time off. The only ICT course offered by FAS was the ECDL.

On the last point this is changing thanks to greater involvement by the private sector in training programmes. Previously they were shut out by the govt. who didn't want to start a row with the unions. In the long run we may well have something to thank Rody Molloy for!

Re the smart economy, or economy if you don't like govt. buzzwords, many of the companies offering work are looking for a very specific skillset and are prepared to wait for the perfect candidate. Check the vacanies on offer and a very small amount are for graduates. Most require 2 or more years experience with expertise in x y z etc. My sister went for an interview with Microsoft and the interview process had then different parts. I'm told Googles comprises 5.

I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing that MNCs hire foreign workers to fill vacancies. It would be better for us if they could fill them with Irish people but they can't according to their own rules. Tough! The jobs and capital investment are usually what garners attention but they bring much more in terms of technology and management procedures. Irish management has been considered relatively poor by international standards so this has to be welcomed. How exactly the govt can bridge the experience gap I don't know.

I'm an IT grad myself with 2 yrs exp. under my belt but went travelling for 2 yrs and fell out of the loop and now I have to reskill. I'm not alone in this, as many of the people on my course have ended up like me thru a variety of ways.

creedp

...I would have thought that a large influx of people into Ireland during a boom where a large proportion of these people ended up working in an unsustainable building industry that has since ...

I read an article in the WSJ about Spains property boom 2yrs ago. The Thing I remember was that they said that the labour market competition was such that crews were being hired off one site in the mid morning and then being rehired by the original company come evening. It never got this bad in Ireland because of the foreign labour. If it had we'd probably have further to go to improve our competitiveness. I don't think it was a bad thing.

djpbarry Moderator
#51

paddy0090 said:
In Ireland Construction is/was(this may have changed) considered part of manufacturing and included in the statistics.
Ok, but I’m just making the distinction between the two myself.
paddy0090 said:
...many of the companies offering work are looking for a very specific skillset and are prepared to wait for the perfect candidate. Check the vacanies on offer and a very small amount are for graduates.
I disagree. There is broad recognition that a chronic shortage of engineers and computer scientists exists in the world (Germany, the engineering powerhouse of the world, has a massive shortage) and a lot of companies accept that they have to invest in graduates. For example, Intel have a number of intern and graduate positions advertised at present:
http://www.intel.com/jobs/jobsearch/index_js.htm?Location=200000039&JobCategory=-1
paddy0090 said:
Most require 2 or more years experience with expertise in x y z etc.
Job specs are not set in stone. It’s very likely that most applicants for a position are not going to tick all the boxes. But, the likes of Google can afford to be a bit more demanding because they know they’re going to get plenty of overseas applicants.
paddy0090 said:
I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing that MNCs hire foreign workers to fill vacancies.
I’m not saying it’s a bad thing, I was just pointing out that the vacancies that exist in Ireland at present are unlikely to be filled by those currently on the dole.

ucdperson Registered User
#52

and a lot of companies accept that they have to invest in graduates.


This is at best partly true. Everyone from chambers of commerce to the IDA laments the lack of certain classes of graduate, but they do little enough to engage with educational institutions to try and improve things. They presume that if jobs are there that people will fill them, but they neglect the critical steps of conveying general information on the opportunities in the sector so that people will choose to study the things that lead to those jobs.
Ireland Inc's performance in this regard is not what it could be.

djpbarry Moderator
#53

ucdperson said:
They presume that if jobs are there that people will fill them, but they neglect the critical steps of conveying general information on the opportunities in the sector so that people will choose to study the things that lead to those jobs.
Surely if there's one thing we should learn from the last decade it's that students shouldn't base their CAO choices solely on the current jobs market.

Finnbar01 Registered User
#54

liammur said:
Globalisation. Not sure it's as good as they told us it was, apart from getting cheap products etc


Globalisation is the essence of human nature. We've being practising it for a few thousand years.

#55

Finnbar01 said:
Globalisation is the essence of human nature. We've being practising it for a few thousand years.


Not accroding to this man:

"I don't want to let France dilute itself into globalization, here's the message from the first round," Sarkozy told supporters at a rally in Toulouse. "Europe has let the [idea of] Nation weaken too much."
Sarkozy insisted on the crucial importance of borders at a time when "all borders are being cancelled."

ardmacha Registered User
#56

Surely if there's one thing we should learn from the last decade it's that students shouldn't base their CAO choices solely on the current jobs market.


People shouldn't base their CAO choices on a simplistic interpretation of the current jobs market. Jobs come and go, but skills can remain in demand. Taking the example of the civil engineer earlier in the thread, civil engineers are somewhat out of demand, but the broader category applied mathematicians face increasing demand.

#57

ardmacha said:
People shouldn't base their CAO choices on a simplistic interpretation of the current jobs market. Jobs come and go, but skills can remain in demand. Taking the example of the civil engineer earlier in the thread, civil engineers are somewhat out of demand, but the broader category applied mathematicians face increasing demand.


True, they should also look to things that they like and are good at.

Finnbar01 Registered User
#58

liammur said:
Not accroding to this man:

"I don't want to let France dilute itself into globalization, here's the message from the first round," Sarkozy told supporters at a rally in Toulouse. "Europe has let the [idea of] Nation weaken too much."
Sarkozy insisted on the crucial importance of borders at a time when "all borders are being cancelled."


Well that man is wrong. Sarkozy is a product of globalisation himself.

paddy0090 Registered User
#59

djpbarry said:
I disagree. There is broad recognition that a chronic shortage of engineers and computer scientists exists in the world (Germany, the engineering powerhouse of the world, has a massive shortage) and a lot of companies accept that they have to invest in graduates. For example, Intel have a number of intern and graduate positions advertised at present:
http://www.intel.com/jobs/jobsearch/index_js.htm?Location=200000039&JobCategory=-1

]Job specs are not set in stone. It’s very likely that most applicants for a position are not going to tick all the boxes. ....


The German problem is as much a symptom of an ageing population as anything else. Though there's probably a wider problem in Europe as a whole.

The majority of vacancies are still for non grads with experience, lookfor your self. Maybe I'm not in a position to be picky but I won't do an internship. It's a basic principle, you work your week and get paid at the end of it, it disgusts me that any comapny thinks it's entitled to free labour. Indeed I've yet to come across any press release citing research that shows how internships create work. Never found David Letterman attractive and I've no ambition to smoke cigars that've been up my arse so I think I'll skip them.

I'm not some left wing nut, but you can't trade on your brand like that and expect everyone to come running! Everything for me, paid for by everyone else... Liberty, equality, interns!

Increaseingly the announcements on skills shortages are surrounding the lack of suitable candiates. One pharma company demands at least 2 references minimum(it can be for shop assistant or whatever). It's an employers market out there and they are prepared to wait, google won't hire everyone!

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