SleepDoc Registered User
#1,261

partyatmygaff said:
Me and Seachmall already agreed on the "accepted definitions", of which there were two:
1. Child = Human offspring
2. Child = Human in certain age group

I don't want to have this conversation again.


It's not Dungeons and Dragons.

Write a dictionary if you want to come up with an "accepted definition".

partyatmygaff Registered User
#1,262

ChubbyRunner said:
well we will have to agree to disagree on that one. I just find it kinda funny you would get upset over a slight and still think its okay to use disgusting terms that could be very upsetting.

"Disgusting terms" says quite a lot considering they're perfectly accurate terms.
I think the women who posted probably did to debunk the myth that women have abortions cause they hate kids or can't be bothered having children.

A myth that no one has attempted to propagate on this thread.
You can and could have made your points without being cruel but the fact you choose not too kinda says it all really. I think most people reading this have the measure of you.

"Cruel"? When was I ever cruel to anyone? I'm gobsmacked at how you think i'm being cruel to anyone.
nozzferrahhtoo said:
Yeah right, if you say so. You also at one point declared one post was going to be your "final post" and in another you said you were "bringing it to a close" but nice attempt to twist it to try and make it look like you did not return to a thread you claimed you would not be returning to. Nozz's rule strikes again. But pretend whatever you like.

1 - 0 : Nozz to PAMG. Game set and match.
You win in the pettiness competition, happy?
My point exactly!!!! Within the context the definition is unclear so instead you go to all the definitions OUTSIDE that context and cherry pick the one that most fits the conclusions you have already decided on. It is confirmation bias. You do the same for example when... from all the indispensable unskipable stages in fetal development... you arbitrary picked one and declared it the "most important" based on nothing but the fact it suited your position on the abortion debate.

I'm not the first or only person who has said that gastrulation is the most important stage in an individual's life. In fact, there's quite a number of people who've said it. In particular, the well known developmental biologist, Lewis Wolpert.

B0jangles Registered User
#1,263

partyatmygaff said:

I'm not the first or only person who has said that gastrulation is the most important stage in an individual's life. In fact, there's quite a number of people who've said it. In particular, the well known developmental biologist, Lewis Wolpert.


Who interestingly does not support your general position at all.

Lewis Wolpert

I've spoken to these eggs many times and they make it quite clear ... they are not a human being.


http://livinglifewithoutanet.wordpress.com/2009/03/17/a-fertilized-egg-is-not-a-human-being/

Lewis Wolpert

“I’m not against religion,” he explains. “Invoking God to explain evolution and the origin of life doesn’t help one iota, but it makes people feel better. That’s the point, you see? I’m only against religion when it starts to interfere with other things, like telling people they can’t use contraception, or banning abortion, or stopping euthanasia. These bloody religious nuts in Parliament! Nobody else, other than the Catholic Church, ever went around saying a fertilised egg was a human being, and now people are starting to believe it. Authority plays a big role in our beliefs.”


Source: http://www.scienceinschool.org/print/433

dogyworld1 Registered User
#1,264

OP got a baby on the way?
you evil ****

shannie Registered User
#1,265

I think its absolutely disgusting. I'll be honest and say I never really had an opinion on it until I seen a video about it and it is just terrible what they do to them poor babies, everyone has the right to live and people should be allowed have an abortion just because they 'forgot' to use contraception or it didn't work. Obviously in some terrible cases, like rape, abortion may be a last resort but other than that I really think its terrible.. then again.. who am I too say?

dogyworld1 Registered User
#1,266

shannie said:
I think its absolutely disgusting. I'll be honest and say I never really had an opinion on it until I seen a video about it and it is just terrible what they do to them poor babies, everyone has the right to live and people should be allowed have an abortion just because they 'forgot' to use contraception or it didn't work. Obviously in some terrible cases, like rape, abortion may be a last resort but other than that I really think its terrible.. then again.. who am I too say?


So your telling me if your misses
got raped
by a black fella
and fell pregnant
youd keep the baby?

plasmaguy Registered User
#1,267

Nah, not on demand, otherwise you'd have some women having abortions every couple of months, probably paid for by the taxpayer via a medical card but also abortion of a fairly mature unborn child is cruel and should only be carried out as a last resort.

I think if a child in the womb gets to a couple months, they've done pretty well, and should be allowed to be born and at least experience some form of life.

plasmaguy Registered User
#1,268

dogyworld1 said:
So your telling me if your misses
got raped
by a black fella
and fell pregnant
youd keep the baby?


That's racist!

Would it be ok if she was raped by a white fella?

nozzferrahhtoo Registered User
#1,269

partyatmygaff said:
1 - 0 : Nozz to PAMG. Game set and match.
You win in the pettiness competition, happy?


I have no wish to partake in such a competition. If you are in it you are in it alone, but thanks for telling us that is what you are at. I however am in the "Establishing the truth" competition and if I see a blatant falsehood I will call people on it. This is a good thing to do. Firstly it keeps the threads truthful. Secondly it highlights to other people on the thread who is being dishonest and who to watch out for.

partyatmygaff said:
I'm not the first or only person who has said that gastrulation is the most important stage in an individual's life.


Argumentum ad populum? Being wrong doesn't become less wrong just because other people were wrong too. The fact is there are a whole series of events and steps in foetal development that have to happen for a child to be born. Picking one of them and declaring it the "most important" is just a baseless nonsense. It would be like building a tower of bricks in a single column and then declaring the 5th one from the bottom the most important in holding the structure up when ripping out the 3rd, 4th, 6th or 7th will just as successfully bring the whole thing crashing down.

nozzferrahhtoo Registered User
#1,270

shannie said:
I think its absolutely disgusting. I'll be honest and say I never really had an opinion on it until I seen a video about it and it is just terrible what they do to them poor babies


You are being fooled by disturbing imagery. Just because the development has reached a point where it has started to look human shaped does not make the procedure and more cruel than if it was not baby shaped at all. Up to a certain stage in development there is no "person" in there, no "personhood", no mind, no conciousness, no subjective experience, no pain. Nothing. It has as much moral concerns as a corpse.

But the anti abortion camp do not want you to know that so rather than present the facts they present disturbing imagery instead and hope that your emotions will fill in the gaps where facts and reason should be. And you clearly have bitten the bait.

I can assure you, by- pass surgery in the heart is also a messy and horrific thing to see too. The fact it looks unpleasant says nothing about the morality of it. So let us not pretend the same is not true here.

1 person has thanked this post
B0jangles Registered User
#1,271

I came across this chart on another forum and though a good bit of it is specific to the U.S. I think some of the points are still applicable generally - specifically the ones about whether people believe that abortion is allowable in cases like rape or incest:

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robp Registered User
#1,272

B0jangles said:
I came across this chart on another forum and though a good bit of it is specific to the U.S. I think some of the points are still applicable generally - specifically the ones about whether people believe that abortion is allowable in cases like rape or incest:



That chart is both confusing and very illogical. Its just deliberately mudding the waters by bringing up abortion clinic bombing. That kind of crime is so so rare and unrepresentative its irrelevant to the entire debate. You will be hard-pressed to meet someone who sees abortion as murder and agrees with that. It also spuriously talks about prosecuting mothers who opt for abortions. What democratic jurisdiction does that? Do even many autocratic countries do that? There many pro-life nations worldwide (~7 in Europe). Which implements this? Its looks like a propaganda-heavy caricature of the pro-life movement. If I had the time I would dismiss each suggestion on moral grounds also.

B0jangles Registered User
#1,273

robp said:
That chart is both confusing and very illogical. Its just deliberately mudding the waters by bringing up abortion clinic bombing. That kind of crime is so so rare and unrepresentative its irrelevant to the entire debate. You will be hard-pressed to meet someone who sees abortion as murder and agrees with that. It also spuriously talks about prosecuting mothers who opt for abortions. What democratic jurisdiction does that? Do even many autocratic countries do that? There many pro-life nations worldwide (~7 in Europe). Which implements this? Its looks like a propaganda-heavy caricature of the pro-life movement. If I had the time I would dismiss each suggestion on moral grounds also.


It's intended to enquire into the attitudes held by individuals, not states, i.e. if you believe that a fetus 100% equal to a child then you should logically believe that a woman who has an abortion is a guilty of a crime as a woman who kills her baby. If you do not, then what exactly is the distinction? (and by "you" I don't mean you specifically robp)

Rabidlamb Banned
#1,274

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/more-irish-women-having-late-abortions-3123731.html



By Eilish O'Regan Health Correspondent

Wednesday May 30 2012

THE number of Irish women who were five or more months pregnant when they had an abortion in the UK increased last year.

The numbers of late pregnancy abortions rose to 114, compared with 109 in 2010, it emerged yesterday. The upper legal limit is 24 weeks.

Overall, the number of women from the Republic terminating pregnancies in the UK fell for the 10th year in a row, down marginally from 4,202 in 2010 to 4,149.

There were 791 abortions among women over the age of 35 years and 257 of these were by women aged 40 or over. Some 148 teenagers under the age of 17 years had an abortion.

Dr Stephanie O'Keeffe, head of the HSE's Crisis Pregnancy programme, said the Netherlands was the only other jurisdiction to which women here were travelling for abortion procedures in significant numbers.

The Pro-Life Campaign welcomed the fall in numbers travelling to Britain for abortions.


I wonder do these figures indicate a true fall in numbers seeking abortions or are expectant mothers traveling further afield to have the procedure.

Sauve Registered User
#1,275

I can't see why women would travel further tbh...
Maybe it's got something to do with the OTC availability of the morning after-pill recently?
I know it's a longshot, but maybe.

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