#1,441

JustinDee said:
My point?
"Not everything is black and white" is my point, just as I posted ie. not every squad or situation can be a direct comparison of each other. I'll bet you that Stuart Lancaster gets the chop, for example, and replaced by someone who thinks they can use that backline. Agree with that?
Dingo Deans stays on with the Aussies. Good thing or bad?

Most of what we'll say to each other has all been said before (by all sides of this debate) so I'm not going to waste more hours on the previous.
Take it handy.

It's never black and white, but it generally becomes stark when the grey areas are neglected.

A good read here which may crystallise what most of us on here believe: http://whiffofcordite.blogspot.com/2012/03/some-good-mostly-bad-time-for-new-broom.html

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leftleg Registered User
#1,442



Exactly that Declan Kidney should just go; or if he stays start blooding props, centres and second rows pronto.

#1,443

leftleg said:
Why cant we have both?? HCup success should ideally lead to 6N successes; should it not? Oh yeah you need a good international coach for that, who is willing to give young talented players game time;

This is what we have from the following http://dementedmole.com/2012/03/19/match-reaction-1-sins-of-omission/

The same player has been selected every game at Nos. 15, 14, 12, 11, 10, 8, 6, 4, 3, 2, 1 … Kidney has only started 19 players in five games. McFadden started at No13 for one game [because there was an illness in Keith Earls’ family, Earls having been initially named in the starting VX]; Reddan started at scrum-half for the two games after Conor Murray injured his knee; Peter O’Mahony started @ No7 for the game against Scotland when Sean O’Brien was in hospital with colitis; and Donnacha Ryan started @ No5 for two games when Paul O’Connell was ruled out for six weeks with a knee injury.

There’s every possibility, given the rest of the selections, that if none of these illnesses or injuries had occurred, the same XV would have taken the field in all four games … despite four of them being played in 23 days.

So in summary; yes it is rubbish

If its rubbish, why can't Wales translate their international success to club success? It's not logical to believe that HC rugby success has to transfer to the international stage, blaming DK for that is just silly

CIARAN_BOYLE Registered User
#1,444

Lelantos said:
If its rubbish, why can't Wales translate their international success to club success? It's not logical to believe that HC rugby success has to transfer to the international stage, blaming DK for that is just silly

Munster have as many NIQ props as the four Welsh regions have NWQ props (three). Not saying that prop depth would turn things around completly but just bringing it to your attention

Its hard to succeed in the HEC without 4 quality props. Few of the Welsh teams have that due to the absence of NWQ props.

Brian Moderator
#1,445
.ak Moderator
#1,446

Lelantos said:
If its rubbish, why can't Wales translate their international success to club success? It's not logical to believe that HC rugby success has to transfer to the international stage, blaming DK for that is just silly


The same reason we can't convert it to the 6N... Bad coaching/management/union setup.

leftleg Registered User
#1,447

Lelantos said:
If its rubbish, why can't Wales translate their international success to club success? It's not logical to believe that HC rugby success has to transfer to the international stage, blaming DK for that is just silly



Ok so we have players playing for the Irish team; 8 of which play for Leinster who are HCup champs and Munster and Ulster are in the QFs. Munster are Rabo champs; Leimster win the HCup in 09 as well; Munster won it 08 and 06. So the national team has a group of players that can win and are used to winning.

When they are brought together they should win right; they dont; we have a coach who has coached this team to steadily worse results since he took over at the end of 08. He had a high in 09 and then nothing since except decrepit results with the odd decent game or performance thrown in.

I cant see how Kidney shouldn't take some blame for the teams performances.

Please tell me the difference between the team he inherited in 08 to the team he has now??

molloyjh Registered User
#1,448

JRant said:
Didn't see it tonight but sat through The Breakdown the other night. It was just a litany of mistakes from start to finish.
When you see the overhead shots at scrum time you realise there was nothing Court could have done either. The LH was never square at any time, the push was coming before the ball was in and Hartley was up to his old standing up tricks.


What was the overall opinion from the lads on the Breakdown? Missed it myself and would love to know their take on the whole thing...

Lelantos said:
Sorry, but its not rubbish, I'm asking would Irish supporters rather have the Welsh model, international success over club success? I'm quite sure that many Munster & Leinster fans would prefer continued HC success to 6n championships


I'd rather not have to choose personally. But if I absolutely had to I'd pick Leinster for one very simple reason. If I'm going to watch one of my teams suffer I'd rather see less of it. And there are a lot less Ireland games than Leinster ones.

Obviously though I want both to succeed.

Lelantos said:
If its rubbish, why can't Wales translate their international success to club success? It's not logical to believe that HC rugby success has to transfer to the international stage, blaming DK for that is just silly


I think looking at this the other way around, i.e. national level down to club level, is all a bit disingenuous. All you need is a pool of 25-30 quality players to make up a good national squad. If a handful of those are abroad and the others are spread across the 5 regions that's an average of 4-5 quality players per region. If that's all Wales had (for arguments sake) then the regions couldn't succeed.

However if the regions had 10-12 quality NIQs each then those 50-60 players would be battling it out at national level.

In other words just because a national side has enough quality players to create a quality team, doesn't mean their clubs/provinces/regions do. If the clubs had enough then the national side would be laughing. It's apples and oranges really.

Add to that the problems Wales have at regional level and the financial issues that come from that and they just can't afford the same quality coaching staff that our provinces can.

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#1,449

Lelantos said:
If its rubbish, why can't Wales translate their international success to club success? It's not logical to believe that HC rugby success has to transfer to the international stage, blaming DK for that is just silly

Munster have as many NIQ props as the four Welsh regions have NWQ props (three). Not saying that prop depth would turn things around completly but just bringing it to your attention

Its hard to succeed in the HEC without 4 quality props. Few of the Welsh teams have that due to the absence of NWQ props.

Does that then mean that the Welsh unions desire is for Welsh only props etc, regardless of the effect it has on the regions. Putting the international teams need first, and the regions nowhere, as opposed to second?

Ardillaun Registered User
#1,450

Sindri said:
It was obviously illegal scrummaging lads FFS. No one to blame. Court had no answer and Ross was injured by that same illegal scrummaging.

We need to stop this ****e about how we can't scrummage and how we were brutal in the scrum. We were brutal but it was for aforementioned reasons.

We lost the match by poor ball retention and being overturned by illegal scrummaging. The 'tactical' substitutes didn't help either.


If it was so grossly illegal, why did the ref allow it time after time and why hasn't Kidney complained about it publicly? Refs are given a fair bit of discretion on these matters, and their intrepretation is effectively the law for the match. What was stopping Ireland scrummaging in the same way?

#1,451

Ardillaun said:
If it was so grossly illegal, why did the ref allow it time after time and why hasn't Kidney complained about it publicly? Refs are given a fair bit of discretion on these matters, and their intrepretation is effectively the law for the match. What was stopping Ireland scrummaging in the same way?

Kind of pointless at this stage and will smack of sour grapes. Nigel Owens is notoriously poor at scrum time, so it's no surprise he missed stuff. He's not alone, teams regularly put in crooked and get away with it, start pushing before the ball is in (as England did on Saturday time after time) and get away with it, so more subtle cheating like Hartley loosening his bind to push our front row up whilst still allowing his two props to scrummage would be well outside the ref's radar.

JRant Registered User
#1,452

JRant said:
Didn't see it tonight but sat through The Breakdown the other night. It was just a litany of mistakes from start to finish.
When you see the overhead shots at scrum time you realise there was nothing Court could have done either. The LH was never square at any time, the push was coming before the ball was in and Hartley was up to his old standing up tricks.


What was the overall opinion from the lads on the Breakdown? Missed it myself and would love to know their take on the whole thing...

Lelantos said:
Sorry, but its not rubbish, I'm asking would Irish supporters rather have the Welsh model, international success over club success? I'm quite sure that many Munster & Leinster fans would prefer continued HC success to 6n championships


I'd rather not have to choose personally. But if I absolutely had to I'd pick Leinster for one very simple reason. If I'm going to watch one of my teams suffer I'd rather see less of it. And there are a lot less Ireland games than Leinster ones.

Obviously though I want both to succeed.

Lelantos said:
If its rubbish, why can't Wales translate their international success to club success? It's not logical to believe that HC rugby success has to transfer to the international stage, blaming DK for that is just silly


I think looking at this the other way around, i.e. national level down to club level, is all a bit disingenuous. All you need is a pool of 25-30 quality players to make up a good national squad. If a handful of those are abroad and the others are spread across the 5 regions that's an average of 4-5 quality players per region. If that's all Wales had (for arguments sake) then the regions couldn't succeed.

However if the regions had 10-12 quality NIQs each then those 50-60 players would be battling it out at national level.

In other words just because a national side has enough quality players to create a quality team, doesn't mean their clubs/provinces/regions do. If the clubs had enough then the national side would be laughing. It's apples and oranges really.

Add to that the problems Wales have at regional level and the financial issues that come from that and they just can't afford the same quality coaching staff that our provinces can.


They pretty much just went through the game as it happened. Didn't go into to much detail on the overall performance of the team during the 6N's. They're doing a full breakdown next week so it should be very interesting to hear what they have to say.

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