owenc Banned
#16

Maybe it was too far west? Are maybe they couldn't get? I'm not sure but i bet its something to do with that.

bastados Registered User
#17

No doubt it would have been easy to estimate the worth of Ireland simply studying the trade between the 2 countries...any significant produce would leave a "footprint".

Am far more interested in the roman difficulty with the druids.

#18

slowburner said:
To date, no definitively Roman military artefacts have been unearthed.


Part of 2nd century Roman armour was found at Rathgael hillfort in wicklow

slowburner Moderator
#19

bastados said:
No doubt it would have been easy to estimate the worth of Ireland simply studying the trade between the 2 countries...any significant produce would leave a "footprint".

Am far more interested in the roman difficulty with the druids.

Not so sure it would be 'easy' to estimate the degree of trade.
It was quite a long time ago and many materials simply would not have survived.
There is not going to be any physical evidence of perishable goods for example, so for that aspect of trading we will be dependent on the difficult and dubious historical record.
As mentioned above, some artefacts of Roman origin have been discovered and well documented.
Some, raise more questions than answers.

bastados Registered User
#20

slowburner said:
Not so sure it would be 'easy' to estimate the degree of trade.
It was quite a long time ago and many materials simply would not have survived.
There is not going to be any physical evidence of perishable goods for example, so for that aspect of trading we will be dependent on the difficult and dubious historical record.
As mentioned above, some artefacts of Roman origin have been discovered and well documented.
Some, raise more questions than answers.


I mean for the roman to establish any significance ,back then..not us today

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slowburner Moderator
#21

sensibleken said:
Part of 2nd century Roman armour was found at Rathgael hillfort in wicklow

No sign of it here
http://www.excavations.ie/Pages/Search.php?year=&county=Wicklow&site_no=&site_name=rathgall&site_type=&report_text=&author=&grid_ref=&smr_no=&excavation_license_no=&Submit=Do+Search

The closest artefact is this
The existence of some form of settlement at Rathgall in the early centuries A.D. is established by the discovery of a decorated bronze strap-end of sub-Roman type, while late thirteenth century silver coins and green-glazed pottery indicate a fairly intensive occupation during the Mediaeval period.
* Antiquity 44, 1970, 51-54
Mr. Barry Raftery, Department of Archaeology/U.C.D.

http://www.excavations.ie/Pages/Details.php?Year=&County=Wicklow&id=5443

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slowburner Moderator
#23

Don't know to be honest but would 'sub-Roman' indicate that it was not actually Roman? Possibly more a copy of a Roman strap?
Either way it was not given much attention, methinks

#24

slowburner said:
Not so sure it would be 'easy' to estimate the degree of trade.
It was quite a long time ago and many materials simply would not have survived.

Some, raise more questions than answers.


Could you estimate this by wars or incursions that are recorded ??




Cornwall & Devon are mentioned here.

And would stuff like later monasteries etc give a clue to where contact existed.

It makes sense that people traveled to and from places that they were familiar with.

dubhthach Registered User
#25

Regarding Wales and Cornwall. Here are two maps showing Ogham stone distrubition in Wales and in the West country (Cornwall+Devon)





there's quite abit of Ogham stones in South-West Wales in the area that later became the "Kingdom of Dyfed".

#26

owenc said:
Maybe it was too far west? Are maybe they couldn't get? I'm not sure but i bet its something to do with that.


I was in the Canaries a few years back and a tour guide told us that pre Columbus the Spanish believed the islands and the Maderias were at the edge of the world.

That earth is flat idea came from somewhere.

There is a bit of what would be the point of invading Ireland for the Roman's.

Now I do not know how reliable this guy is but look at this map



He seems to say that is was the Irish who colonised Britain.

dubhthach Registered User
#27

CDfm said:
I was in the Canaries a few years back and a tour guide told us that pre Columbus the Spanish believed the islands and the Maderias were at the edge of the world.

That earth is flat idea came from somewhere.

There is a bit of what would be the point of invading Ireland for the Roman's.

Now I do not know how reliable this guy is but look at this map



He seems to say that is was the Irish who colonised Britain.


I think his point is more that there are groups in Ireland who are also found in Britain and Gaul. For example the Domnainn and Belgae were both in Southern Britain (West Country) -- from whom we have the Fir Domnann and potentially the name "Fir Bolg".

Of course Erris in Mayo is known as "Iorras Domnann" in Irish, and if ye believe the semi-mytholigical writings the Fir Domnann were one of three components of the Laighin.

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#28

dubhthach said:
I think his point is more that there are groups in Ireland who are also found in Britain and Gaul. For example the Domnainn and Belgae were both in Southern Britain (West Country) -- from whom we have the Fir Domnann and potentially the name "Fir Bolg".



I am not very familiar with that era. Were the tribes united or had they been beaten in Europe & Britain ?

Conquering & subduing a semi nomadic tribe is a bit different to a town is it not ?

slowburner Moderator
#29

dubhthach said:
I think his point is more that there are groups in Ireland who are also found in Britain and Gaul. For example the Domnainn and Belgae were both in Southern Britain (West Country) -- from whom we have the Fir Domnann and potentially the name "Fir Bolg".

Of course Erris in Mayo is known as "Iorras Domnann" in Irish, and if ye believe the semi-mytholigical writings the Fir Domnann were one of three components of the Laighin.


Oddly enough, Iorras Domhnann is where Tuathal Teachtmar is reputed to have landed.
Tuathal was twenty-five years of age at that time. And they put into port at Iorrus Domhnann, where they met Fiachaidh Casan with his brother. Thence they proceeded to Tara, and there assembled their supporters from all parts of Ireland to meet Tuathal, and they proclaimed him king of Ireland.....Then Tuathal and his supporters went against the Athachthuaith throughout Ireland, and defeated them in twenty-five battles in Ulster, and twenty-five battles in Leinster, and twenty-five battles in Connaught, and thirty-five battles in Munster.
http://http://www.ucc.ie/celt/online/T100054/text049.html

dubhthach Registered User
#30

slowburner said:
Oddly enough, Iorras Domhnann is where Tuathal Teachtmar is reputed to have landed.
http://http://www.ucc.ie/celt/online/T100054/text049.html


What's interesting about Tuathal Teachtmar is he's titular ancestor of the Connachta/Uí Néill. His story of course tells of how his mother fled back to her father (King of Alba -- at this time it probably meant Britain not scotland) while pregnant with him and that he later returned with an army to reclaim his rightfull inheritance (The High-Kingship).

There are several stories of this variety, some have argued that what they serve is as a means to writing in an "invading group" into the history by subsuming them. so in case of Tuathal he wasn't invading he was returning.

Anyways what's interesting about the Connachta/Uí Néill is they have a distinct SNP that marks them as a subclade within L21. ergo they are L21+ DF23+ M222+

Men bearing this signature are also found in Northern England/Lowland Scotland. The current evidence points to higher variation in samples form there thus potentially and older sample population. DF23 is recently enough discovered and there is at least one cluster from South-West England/Wales that is L21+ DF23+ M222-

The potential implications thus are a migratory process up through island of Britain, the first occurrence of M222+ probably in Northern Britain followed by migration of some carriers into Ireland. From which they spread and multiplied such that 1 in 6 of every Donegal men are carriers.

Some have even ventured as a result that the Veniiconnes which Ptomley put in Northern Britain as been a connection. After all another name for the Connachta is the Dál Cuinn

Veni is cognate with old Irish Féni (V -> F in Goidelic). Some have argued (O'Rahilly I believe?) of course that Conn was potentially a tribal deity and not a real person.

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