eire4 Registered User
#61

MadsL said:
Fine, but let's nip this 'Irish-born' crap in the bud. I can see that phrase becoming the new 'non-national'.


What would you propose?

MadsL Registered User
#62

I already did, PPS number issued and a valid tax record.

In fact PPS number should do it...if you don't already have one issued.

If you are Irish you will need to bring the following:
Birth Certificate issued by the General Registrars Office (GRO) or the old Long Form Birth Certificate

and
Photographic ID such as your Passport or Driving Licence

and
Evidence of address such as a Household Bill in your name.
(If you present an Irish Passport but were born abroad you should bring either your "Certificate of registration of a foreign birth" or birth certificate from your country of birth)


http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Publications/SW100/Pages/HowToGetAPPSNo.aspx

That should mean that any emigrees keep their vote, and any passport holders without any form of real connection (residence period or tax record) are excluded.

munchkin_utd Registered User
#63

actually, thats a prefect way of expanding the voter base to emmigrants (and other irish citizens abroad) with a valid an real interest in 26 counties affairs.
Only someone who has lived in the "republic" at some stage will have a PPS number.

And only someone who has lived in the republic is as a rule to have a deep interest in what happens with regard to social and economic affairs and can make an informed decision at the ballot box.
(you only have to look at how clueless Gerry Adams was at the beginning of his stint down south to realise how clueless even the most "irish" of people can be on 26 counties matters when the details and nuances of it never affected or interested them before) **

The more I have thought about it over the past few years, a system like in Germany that only citizens with a proven residence in the homeland at some stage of their life can vote when abroad.

What was missing for Irish people was a means of proof.
The PPS though is a perfect means of proof!


** Those in deepest south armagh/ south fermanagh are well clued in to 26county matters but they are a small minority of the million+ irish passport holders who have never lived in the state.

Irishheart Banned
#64

If still and Irish citizen carrying Irish passport then you should be allowed vote in your home country no matter where you are.
One day they may come back.
So what do the anti Irish voting outside of their country think.They should pay for the right to vote?
I thought voting was a freedom.

munchkin_utd Registered User
#65

Irishheart said:
If still and Irish citizen carrying Irish passport then you should be allowed vote in your home country no matter where you are.
One day they may come back.
So what do the anti Irish voting outside of their country think.They should pay for the right to vote?
I thought voting was a freedom.

strange post. Maybe do a preview the next time?

Anyhow, this here irish person abroad thinks Irish abroad who have at some stage lived in the 26 counties should be entitled to keep the vote they had at home when moving abroad.

the pps nr reference wasnt a suggestion to continue remiting taxes from abroad but was the simple fact that the PPS nr is your concrete evidence as to whether someone has lived in "Ireland" in the past at some stage as the swathes of 2nd generation emmigrants and older would not have it so would not be entitled to vote.

Irishheart Banned
#66

munchkin_utd said:
strange post. Maybe do a preview the next time?

Anyhow, this here irish person abroad thinks Irish abroad who have at some stage lived in the 26 counties should be entitled to keep the vote they had at home when moving abroad.

the pps nr reference wasnt a suggestion to continue remiting taxes from abroad but was the simple fact that the PPS nr is your concrete evidence as to whether someone has lived in "Ireland" in the past at some stage as the swathes of 2nd generation emmigrants and older would not have it so would not be entitled to vote.


Well to be honest i dont think second generation Irish should vote in Ireland unless they move here or take Irish passport like dual citizenship (and i highly doubt alot would go to much trouble for it).
No i have heard people complain that since no longer paying tax in Ireland why should they get to vote.On top of the ludicrous idea that they left because they wanted to so abandoned Ireland,so shouldnt have right.They should have right to vote to swing country to way they wish with said vote as still Irish citizens,and paying tax does not make it any more a right then person who isn't paying tax.People on social welfare have right to vote to.

P.S this here Irish person part mean.Most Irish people would be happy with Irish abroad voting,as its a free thing not something that is to be paid for right of being a citizen shouldnt end because you had to move countries.

celtictiger32 Registered User
#67

personally i think the votes should be kept to irish citizens actually in the country, i understand many people have left over the years through hardship etc but a lot of us still remained.

also someone said earlier that they thought voting was a freedom not always the case some countries fine people who do not vote i think australia implements this law if im not mistaken i think something similar should be introduced here.

Ozymandius2011 Registered User
#68

I'm sorry but I cannot support people who don't pay taxes to Ireland voting in Ireland. Even the Irish unemployed pay indirect taxes.

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munchkin_utd Registered User
#69

Irishheart said:
Well to be honest i dont think second generation Irish should vote in Ireland unless they move here or take Irish passport like dual citizenship (and i highly doubt alot would go to much trouble for it).<snip>

absolutely ! Or as I suggested, at least have lived in the state for a period (proved by possession of a PPS nr) so they have an appreciation for whats going on.

Just listening to RTEs coverage of the latest referendum (.. in my office in Germany, indeed us abroad have no clue about whats going on so cant be trusted to vote with an informed opinion.)

One of the pundits put down the low turnout to the shambles that is the electoral register. People moved and not transferred onto the register where they now live, or folks who have emigrated haven't been stripped of their vote yet. The entire basis of democracy in Ireland is already banjaxed.

So how is that relevant you might think!
In general elections the number of seats is dependent on the number of people registered to vote in a constituency. So on that front the system currently is flawed as folks living elsewhere in Ireland or abroad but not in the position to turn up at the polls are skewing the nr of TDs in areas (and depriving other areas of TDs).

Or more relevant to this thread.
If you read the constitutional review on the possibility of citizens abroad voting their main argument against emigrants voting is that every last vote counts so extra folks abroad voting could decide a local TD and that the system is representative of the locality so you cant have people from outside skewing it.

But if ALREADY folks now living outside the constituency are deciding either directly or indirectly the results of elections/ shape of the parliament, then the main argument to taking the vote from Irish emigrants abroad falls on its face.

Ozymandius2011 Registered User
#70

I disagree with this for a couple of reasons:

- They are not paying taxes to the Irish state. Even the Irish unemployed are paying taxes when you include indirect taxes like VAT.

- They are not directly effected by the decisions made by the politicians yet want the right to elect them. That constitutes seeking rights without responsibilities.

- Where dual-citizenship applies, ther is a potential conflict of loyalty.

golden lane Registered User
#71

a simple amswer, to a simple question......the irish abroad who cannot vote in their host country...should have a vote in the home country.......

nobody should have two votes.......and nobody should have no vote.......

Feathers Registered User
#72

As has been mentioned, if you look to the likes of France where you have a number of seats for non-resident citizens. Image if the Dáil had 3 seats for citizens abroad (1% of seats for 20% of the electorate if you say 800,000 abroad & 3.1 electorate at the moment).

People are mentioning having to live with the consequences of your vote. The last thing the political parties want is voting for ex-pats, because they can't promise to fill in the potholes at the end of the road. To sway a vote, it would have to be ideological rather than a quick fix. Surely that is only good for Ireland?

& one of the guys saying even his brother abroad thought he shouldn't have a vote. But surely in that case, he wouldn't bother voting. If I were to vote in London, I'd have to take a half-day from work & travel to get to the embassy during office hours. & if there was a fee to do so I'd happily pay it.

I think in generally, the people who would make that effort are more informed about politics at home that a lot of people who go out & vote each time.

#73

If someone is forced to leave Ireland due to the incompetence of the government should they not have a say in colouring the political landscape in such a way that may enable them to return, as is their right?

Most people are ran out rather than left Ireland in the lurch or some other such nonsense.
Should an unemployed person with little or no prospects tough it out on the dole for a few years or seek employment elsewhere? That's an option regarding survival and quality of life put to most people who emigrate based on politically driven economics. The case could be made that those people have a voice that needs to be heard just as and if not more that those of us who thankfully are not put in that position.

There's a vast difference between somebody backpacking through south asia for a year or two and someone working abroad. You'll find a lot will move back if the economy improves as they have done in the past.
If we are shunning those who leave we should also be apologising because they had to.

I would suggest those abroad can vote but possibly put a five or six year limit on the right.

celtictiger32 Registered User
#74

Shea
If someone is forced to leave Ireland due to the incompetence of the government should they not have a say in colouring the political landscape in such a way that may enable them to return, as is their right?

Most people are ran out rather than left Ireland in the lurch or some other such nonsense.
Should an unemployed person with little or no prospects tough it out on the dole for a few years or seek employment elsewhere? That's an option regarding survival and quality of life put to most people who emigrate based on politically driven economics. The case could be made that those people have a voice that needs to be heard just as and if not more that those of us who thankfully are not put in that position.

There's a vast difference between somebody backpacking through south asia for a year or two and someone working abroad. You'll find a lot will move back if the economy improves as they have done in the past.
If we are shunning those who leave we should also be apologising because they had to.

I would suggest those abroad can vote but possibly put a five or six year limit on the right.


no they shouldnt, many of us stayed here and took it on the chin while they left the country

Feathers Registered User
#75

Shea O'Meara;79145793
If someone is forced to leave Ireland due to the incompetence of the government should they not have a say in colouring the political landscape in such a way that may enable them to return, as is their right?

Most people are ran out rather than left Ireland in the lurch or some other such nonsense.
Should an unemployed person with little or no prospects tough it out on the dole for a few years or seek employment elsewhere? That's an option regarding survival and quality of life put to most people who emigrate based on politically driven economics. The case could be made that those people have a voice that needs to be heard just as and if not more that those of us who thankfully are not put in that position.

There's a vast difference between somebody backpacking through south asia for a year or two and someone working abroad. You'll find a lot will move back if the economy improves as they have done in the past.
If we are shunning those who leave we should also be apologising because they had to.

I would suggest those abroad can vote but possibly put a five or six year limit on the right.


no they shouldnt, many of us stayed here and took it on the chin while they left the country


Many people stayed and had it easy also & many others left to send money home. You do realise that if everyone stayed there'd be an even worse recession?

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