wolfsbane Registered User

Zombrex said:Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfsbane

Agreed. All I'm asking for is respect for a significant minority, and the freedom for all to withdraw from practices they hold to be immoral. In this instance the State insists its pupils are forced to engage, contrary to the wishes of a great number of citizens.
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
To make the judgement that something is amoral is to make a moral judgement.

Not really, it is saying that morality doesn't apply (how is what toothbrush you buy moral or immoral?). I guess if you think morality applies to everything you might view it in that terms, but that is not how everyone thinks.

Yes, OK - but classifying something as amoral/immoral/moral does make it so. It is or is not. And if you classify it as amoral when it is immoral/moral, you are mistaken.

Originally Posted by wolfsbane
As we agreed that imposition of morality was wrong if it was a matter for the person and any consenting party, abortion falls outside that parameter. The unborn child is not given a say.

But that in itself is simply a moral position.

Yes, just like me saying sex-killing is murder.

If a significant minority doesn't agree you wouldn't respect that minority.

Indeed. That is the given in our discussion - things that harm others without their consent.

You would require that this minority hold to your notions of morality when it comes to abortion.

I'm more nuanced than that, seeing there are competing rights and circumstances where the mother's right has been violated to begin with.

Originally Posted by wolfsbane
No, we should not impose our morality on anyone, if their behaviour involves only themselves and consenting adults.

Again that in itself is a moral position.

Yes - but I thought we had agreed that was our starting point in civil liberties?

Lots of people would say that it is immoral to allow parents to instil in their children the idea that homosexuality is wrong or immoral.

I don't necessarily agree with that, and I know you certainly don't. But I also don't think you would respect that position no matter how many people held to it.

Given that children have to be given some moral compass by their parents, the State should keep out of it. Maybe it wishes to say it has all the moral guidance sorted out and is determined to enforce its ideology on the child?

Originally Posted by wolfsbane
True. But our debate is about the State's right to impose its view upon the citizen. I'm saying that it has no democratic right, if the dissenter is not harming anyone by his view.

Many people would argue that teaching children that homosexuality is immoral is harmful.

Then we have to have a showdown in our democracy. When the State imposes penalties on raising children in such morality, it will be time to change the State or leave it.

Again I'm not convinced either way, but equally it is difficult to ignore the huge disparity between depression and suicide rates in homosexual teenagers verse heterosexual teenagers.

It is the awareness in their conscience that they are not behaving morally. Why must it be that their conscience is mistaken? If some of it is the pain of rejection, of feeling an outsider, that is shared by many heterosexuals over their faith, abilities, ethnicity. We can't make people like us or agree with us in everything. We have to live with it.

So while it may still be a parents right, it certainly doesn't seem particularly a good idea.

But if the parent is correct in his/her belief that homosexuality is immoral, it is a good idea to warn their kids against it.

2 Timothy 3:1 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!

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