dubhthach Registered User
#166

P. Breathnach said:
I was thinking of making that very observation. My guess is that the word domhnach flourished for a relatively brief period, and was supplanted by cill as early as the 7th, or perhaps the 6th, century.

In line with that, I would suppose that most places named "Domhnach xxx" were the locations of 5th or 6th century Christian churches.


I could be wrong on this but I believe there might be a paper that analyses the distribution of Domhnach placenames in Ireland and compares them with other "church derived" placenames in Irish. My recollection is hazy but I think part of premise of the paper was distinct geographic distributions, which the authors associated with different "missionary efforts"/centre of Church power. Does such a paper ring any bells with anyone?

slowburner Moderator
#167

dubhthach said:
Domhnach is often said to be connected to what are known as Patrician churches. In other words as Enkidu mentions very early ones. As Patrick of course lived during the 5th century AD.

Very interesting indeed.
I am researching an early church which is in the townland of Kilcashel. It is reputed to have fallen into disuse around 1130. When the church was established is unknown.
The remains of the enclosure (the Cill?) are still to be seen although the date of the enclosure itself is uncertain - it might predate the Christian nature of the site.
It remains to be seen where the Cashel was.
I presume this would be referred to as a Patrician church?
This photo shows all that remains of the graveyard boundary - more of the church and a few headstones are still extant - this is the only photo I had to hand.

dubhthach Registered User
#168

slowburner said:
Very interesting indeed.
I am researching an early church which is in the townland of Kilcashel. It is reputed to have fallen into disuse around 1130. When the church was established is unknown.
The remains of the enclosure (the Cill?) are still to be seen although the date of the enclosure itself is uncertain - it might predate the Christian nature of the site.
It remains to be seen where the Cashel was.
I presume this would be referred to as a Patrician church?
This photo shows all that remains of the graveyard boundary - more of the church and a few headstones are still extant - this is the only photo I had to hand.



I see logainm has three Kilcashel's recoreded on the island. Kilcashel in Wicklow? (Basing that on your location )

Looking at the 6" map from the 1830's/40's I see the following:


I've highlighted an embankement east of church. Given the general shape of the Churchyard is evident (circular as par Irish practise) this embankment seems to be external.

Lognainm has the following archival data from 1839 Ordance survey team:
"The ruins of Kilcu[..]e Church, a raheen and Kilcashel Nob or Grove are in the central E. of the townland." [Desc. Rem.];


Link to OSI map:
http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,718676,681550,7,7

As Enkidu mentioned above the use of "Cill" is later perhaps 6th-8th century

slowburner Moderator
#169

Ssshh....that's the one.

Little remains of the D-shaped enclosure because the site has been affected by the activities of mining. They are interesting things though.
I ended up at this site while looking for two lost mass burials from 1798.
There was an interesting post on these enclosures some time ago in the Archaeology forum (5 of them and unique to this area, as far as I can gather) here
Here it is today, the two circular formations may be ring barrows but it is possible that they are just vestiges of field stone clearance.



And here is a photo of one of the large stones atop one of the possible barrows.
It's either plough marking (the stone would have been subsurface at one point, dug out and discarded here) or Roman graffiti

Enkidu Registered User
#170

P. Breathnach said:
I was thinking of making that very observation. My guess is that the word domhnach flourished for a relatively brief period, and was supplanted by cill as early as the 7th, or perhaps the 6th, century.

In line with that, I would suppose that most places named "Domhnach xxx" were the locations of 5th or 6th century Christian churches.

Your guess is correct. Cell only begins to appear in glosses around the 6th century, prior to that Domnach was the word.

Also, Domnach does not sound too similar to modern Irish Domhnach. The m produced a sound that doesn't exist in Modern Irish, basically a nasal v, but the v is made without your lips touching your teeth.

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P. Breathnach Registered User
#171

Enkidu said:
...
Also, Domnach does not sound too similar to modern Irish Domhnach. The m produced a sound that doesn't exist in Modern Irish, basically a nasal v, but the v is made without your lips touching your teeth.


Don't post stuff like that! Until today, I didn't know you could get cramp in your tongue.

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Enkidu Registered User
#172

P. Breathnach said:
Don't post stuff like that! Until today, I didn't know you could get cramp in your tongue.

Ha!

Old Irish is considered an extremely difficult language to pronounce. Basically it's the same as modern Irish except:

Instead of just broad and slender r,n,l giving:

l,l' r,r' n,n'

You had Fortis r,n,l, written R,N,L phontically, so you have:

r,r',R,R' l,l',L,L' n,n',N,N'

That's four r,l and n sounds. R,R' were basically rolled versions of r,r'. I have no idea how to produce the sound R' with my mouth, which should sound something like a rolled z!

L,L' are basically l,l' but you hold your tongue on the sound for longer. If the l in English lisp is l', then the double l in William is L'. It's the same for N,N'.

You also had dh = the th in the, not the throaty sound of today.
dh' = the same as dh but lift your tongue slightly off your teeth, making a buzzing sound.

And finally,
mh written above
mh' = same as mh, but make it more nasal and pull your lips closer to your teeth.

An example is the joke:
Tríar manach do·rat díultad dont ṡaegul.
Tíagait i fásach do aithrigi a peccad fri día.
Bátar cen labrad fri araile co cenn blíadnae.
Is and as·bert fer diib fri araile dia blíadnae, “Maith at·taam,” olse.
Amein co cenn blíadnae.
“Is maith ón,” ol in indara fer.
Bátar and íar suidiu co cenn blíadnae.
“Toingim fom aibit,” ol in tres fer, “mani·léicthe ciúnas dom co n-imgéb in fásach uile dúib.”

With translations here:
http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/sengoidelc/donncha/tm/ilteangach/?teanga=sga

Listen here to Dennis King pronounce it correctly in Old Irish:
http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/sengoidelc/donncha/tm/ilteangach/guth.php?codll=sga

Edit: R,L,N are the normal sounds for the letters in Old Irish. They only became our sounds r,l,n when they were lenited (Nuair a séimhíodh iad). So to an old Irish speaker we're
constantly saying rh,lh,nh if you get my meaning.

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Enkidu Registered User
#173

slowburner, what are the towns and villages whose names you are interested in? The full list would be good, I'll be getting a chance to look at the original Dindsenchas this week.

slowburner Moderator
#174

Enkidu said:
slowburner, what are the towns and villages whose names you are interested in? The full list would be good, I'll be getting a chance to look at the original Dindsenchas this week.


Here's the most pertinent ones, kind sir.

Tigroney
Kilcashel
Templelusk


I'm interested in these names as well but they are probably less relevant.

Crone
Bahana


and there's a cluster of 'Kil's'

Kilmacoo
Kilmagig
Killeagh
Kilqueeny

#175

Not contributing, but thanking all for opening a world in so small a dichotomy, and so detailed, that, sorry, but much is going over my head.

I love hearing experts chat, it's a different language and I've never learn one, but listening to this and similar threads, is most fascinating.

Thanks you.

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Wibbs Je suis un Rock star
#176

gbee said:
Not contributing, but thanking all for opening a world in so small a dichotomy, and so detailed, that, sorry, but much is going over my head.

I love hearing experts chat, it's a different language and I've never learn one, but listening to this and similar threads, is most fascinating.

Thanks you.
+1000. There are a few posters on this site that I read and often re read with great interest. Folks who actually know their shít. TBH I'm often exclaiming "wtf? *scratch head* Oh yea, right I see what you mean. No way? GTFO! Bloody hell my brain just expanded by a factor of 10 and it hurt" and a fair number of them post in this forum. Dubhthach and Enkidu alone are worth the price of admission and they're not the only ones. If ye aren't in the position of teaching others, even as a part time thing, ye bloody well should be. Ye is great. We so need ye IMHO. Yous or yis doesn't quite cut it Why oh why did English lose the plural you?

*awaits next class with fevered anticipation*

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P. Breathnach Registered User
#177

Wibbs said:
...Why oh why did English lose the plural you?

*awaits next class with fevered anticipation*

Perhaps we should reconvene in the English forum, where you would, no doubt, be told that it was the singular of "you" that was lost (didst thou not remember that?).

2 people have thanked this post
slowburner Moderator
#178

Wibbs said:
+1000. There are a few posters on this site that I read and often re read with great interest. Folks who actually know their shít. TBH I'm often exclaiming "wtf? *scratch head* Oh yea, right I see what you mean. No way? GTFO! Bloody hell my brain just expanded by a factor of 10 and it hurt" and a fair number of them post in this forum. Dubhthach and Enkidu alone are worth the price of admission and they're not the only ones. If ye aren't in the position of teaching others, even as a part time thing, ye bloody well should be. Ye is great. We so need ye IMHO. Yous or yis doesn't quite cut it Why oh why did English lose the plural you?

*awaits next class with fevered anticipation*

Thou hast hit 'ye' nail squarely upon its head.
Where else could you put such a diverse range of expertise and thought together?

dubhthach Registered User
#179

slowburner said:
Thou hast hit 'ye' nail squarely upon its head.
Where else could you put such a diverse range of expertise and thought together?


"Ye" as in "Ye Olde Pub" is due to fact that in English "Blackletter" that the letter þ (Thorn) had basically become identical to the letter y. The replacement of þ with th had only really started in 14th century and wasn't widespread. So in the case of "Ye Olde" it was still prononunced as "The olde", so completely different pronunciation meaning compared to the pronoun "Ye"

þ (Thorn) is still used as a letter in Icelandic for example)

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slowburner Moderator
#180

I came across this lengthy but interesting quote from Bede's Ecclesiastical History of the English People while searching for more information on Maximus, the Roman governor of Britain who claimed to have invaded Ireland around 225 AD.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/bede-book1.asp

This island at present, following the number of the books in which the Divine law was written, contains five nations, the English, Britons, Scots, Picts, and Latins, each in its own peculiar dialect cultivating the sublime study of Divine truth. The Latin tongue is, by the study of the Scriptures, become common to all the rest. At first this island had no other inhabitants but the Britons, from whom it derived its name, and who, coming over into Britain, as is reported, from Armorica, possessed themselves of the southern parts thereof. When they, beginning at the south, had made themselves masters of the greatest part of the island, it happened, that the nation of the Picts, from Scythia, as is reported, putting to sea, in a few long ships, were driven by the winds beyond the shores of Britain, and arrived on the northern coast of Ireland, where, finding the nation of the Scots, they begged to be allowed to settle among them, but could not succeed in obtaining their request. Ireland is the greatest island next to Britain, and lies to the west of it; but as it is shorter than Britain to the north, so, on the other hand, it runs out far beyond it to the south, opposite to the northern parts of Spain, though a spacious sea lies between them. The Picts, as has been said, arriving in this island by sea, desired to have a place granted them in which they might settle. The Scots answered that the island could not contain them both; but "We can give you good advice," said they, "what to do; we know there is another island, not far from ours, to the eastward, which we often see at a distance, when the days are clear. if you will go thither, you will obtain settlements; or, if they should oppose you, you shall have our assistance." The Picts, accordingly, sailing over into Britain, began to inhabit the northern parts thereof, for the Britons were possessed of the southern. Now the Picts had no wives, and asked them of the Scots; who would not consent to grant them upon any other terms, than that when any difficulty should arise, they should choose a king from the female royal race rather than from the male: which custom, as is well known, has been observed among the Picts to this day. In process of time, Britain, besides the Britons and the Picts, received a third nation the Scots, who, migrating from Ireland under their leader, Reuda, either by fair means, or by force of arms, secured to themselves those settlements among the Picts which they still possess. From the name of their commander, they are to this day called Dalreudins; for, in their language, Dal signifies a part.
Ireland, in breadth, and for wholesomeness and serenity of climate, far surpasses Britain; for the snow scarcely ever lies there above three days: no man makes hay in the summer for winter's provision, or builds stables for his beasts of burden. No reptiles are found there, and no snake can live there; for, though often carried thither out of Britain, as soon as the ship comes near the shore, and the scent of the air reaches them, they die. On the contrary, almost all things in the island are good against poison. In short, we have known that when some persons have been bitten by serpents, the scrapings of leaves of books that were brought out of Ireland, being put into water, and given them to drink, have immediately expelled the spreading poison, and assuaged the swelling. The island abounds in milk and honey, nor is there any want of vines, fish, or fowl; and it is remarkable for deer and goats. It is properly the country of the Scots, who, migrating from thence, as has been said, added a third nation in Britain to the Britons and the Picts. There is a very large gulf of the sea, which formerly divided the nation of the Picts from the Britons; which gulf runs from the west very far into the land, where, to this day, stands the strong city of the Britons, called Aicluith. The Scots, arriving on the north side of this bay, settled themselves there.
Nennius' mention of Maximus (Historia Brittonum, C.830 according to Wiki)doesn't much help.
http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/T100028/
vi. Maxim was the sixth emperor that took Britain. It was at that time that the consulship was begun among the Romans, and no king was called Caesar from thenceforth. It was in the time of Maxim that the noble venerable prelate St. Martin flourished; he was of Gaul of Ulexis.

vii. Maximian took the kingdom of Britain, and he led the armies of Britain against the Romans, so that Gratian, the emperor, fell by him, and he himself took the empire of Europe; and he did not suffer the armies he had brought with him to go back to their wives and their children, nor to their lands, but gave them many lands, from the place where there is the lake on the top of Mount Jove, to Canacuic on the south, and westward to the Mound Ochiden, a place where there is a celebrated cross, and these are the Britons of Letha, and they remained in the south ever since, and it was for this reason that foreign tribes occupied the lands of the Britons, and that the Britons were slaughtered on the borders of their land.
But Gratian, with his brother Valentinian, reigned conjointly six years. It was in his time lived the noble prelate in Milan, a teacher of Catholicity, viz. Ambrose.

Valentinian and Theothas Theodosius were in joint sovereignty eight years. It was in their time was assembled the synod in Constantinople of three hundred and fifty clerks, to banish the heresy of Macedon, viz., the denying the Holy Ghost. And it was in their time the noble priest Cirine Hieronymus flourished at Bethlehem Judah, the catholic interpreter.

The same Gratian, as we have said, and Valentinian, reigned until Maximen Maximus was made king by the soldiers in the island of Britain, and went across the sea to France; and the king, Gratian, was set at liberty by the treacherous counsel of the master of the soldiers,
Parassis Merobladis; and the king fled to Lugdon, and was taken there and put to death.
Maximen and his son Victor reigned jointly. Martin was at Torinis at that time. But Maximen was stripped of his royal robes by the consuls, i. e. by Valentinen and Theothas, at the third stone from the city Eigilia Aquileia, and his head was cut off in that place. His son Victor also fell in France by the hand of the count whose name was Arguba; from the creation of the world are 5690 years, to this event, according to all the chronicles.
Further on (Historia 22) there is what must be one of the earliest references to distinguish Patrick from Palladius.
At this time Patrick was in captivity in Eri with Miliuc; and it was at this time that Pledius was sent to Eri to preach to them. Patrick went to the south to study, and he read the canons with German. Pledius was driven from Eri, and he went and served God in Fordun in Mairne. Patrick came to Eri after studying, and baptized the men of Eri. From Adam to the baptizing of the men of Eri were five thousand three hundred and thirty years. To describe the miracles of Patrick to you, O men of Eri, were to bring water to a lake, and they are more numerous than the sands of the sea, and I shall ,therefore, pass them over without giving an abstract or narrative of them just now.
and from http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11554a.htm
Pope St. Celestine I, who rendered immortal service to the Church by the overthrow of the Pelagian and Nestorian heresies, and by the imperishable wreath of honour decreed to the Blessed Virgin in the General Council of Ephesus, crowned his pontificate by an act of the most far-reaching consequences for the spread of Christianity and civilization, when he entrusted St. Patrick with the mission of gathering the Irish race into the one fold of Christ. Palladius had already received that commission, but terrified by the fierce opposition of a Wicklow chieftain had abandoned the sacred enterprise
Tough stuff this early history.

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