I could be wrong on this but I believe there might be a paper that analyses the distribution of Domhnach placenames in Ireland and compares them with other "church derived" placenames in Irish. My recollection is hazy but I think part of premise of the paper was distinct geographic distributions, which the authors associated with different "missionary efforts"/centre of Church power. Does such a paper ring any bells with anyone?
Very interesting indeed.
I am researching an early church which is in the townland of Kilcashel. It is reputed to have fallen into disuse around 1130. When the church was established is unknown.
The remains of the enclosure (the Cill?) are still to be seen although the date of the enclosure itself is uncertain - it might predate the Christian nature of the site.
It remains to be seen where the Cashel was.
I presume this would be referred to as a Patrician church?
This photo shows all that remains of the graveyard boundary - more of the church and a few headstones are still extant - this is the only photo I had to hand.
I see logainm has three Kilcashel's recoreded on the island. Kilcashel in Wicklow? (Basing that on your location )
Looking at the 6" map from the 1830's/40's I see the following:
I've highlighted an embankement east of church. Given the general shape of the Churchyard is evident (circular as par Irish practise) this embankment seems to be external.
Lognainm has the following archival data from 1839 Ordance survey team:
Link to OSI map:
As Enkidu mentioned above the use of "Cill" is later perhaps 6th-8th century
Ssshh....that's the one.
Little remains of the D-shaped enclosure because the site has been affected by the activities of mining. They are interesting things though.
I ended up at this site while looking for two lost mass burials from 1798.
There was an interesting post on these enclosures some time ago in the Archaeology forum (5 of them and unique to this area, as far as I can gather) here
Here it is today, the two circular formations may be ring barrows but it is possible that they are just vestiges of field stone clearance.
And here is a photo of one of the large stones atop one of the possible barrows.
It's either plough marking (the stone would have been subsurface at one point, dug out and discarded here) or Roman graffiti
Your guess is correct. Cell only begins to appear in glosses around the 6th century, prior to that Domnach was the word.
Also, Domnach does not sound too similar to modern Irish Domhnach. The m produced a sound that doesn't exist in Modern Irish, basically a nasal v, but the v is made without your lips touching your teeth.
Don't post stuff like that! Until today, I didn't know you could get cramp in your tongue.
Old Irish is considered an extremely difficult language to pronounce. Basically it's the same as modern Irish except:
Instead of just broad and slender r,n,l giving:
l,l' r,r' n,n'
You had Fortis r,n,l, written R,N,L phontically, so you have:
r,r',R,R' l,l',L,L' n,n',N,N'
That's four r,l and n sounds. R,R' were basically rolled versions of r,r'. I have no idea how to produce the sound R' with my mouth, which should sound something like a rolled z!
L,L' are basically l,l' but you hold your tongue on the sound for longer. If the l in English lisp is l', then the double l in William is L'. It's the same for N,N'.
You also had dh = the th in the, not the throaty sound of today.
dh' = the same as dh but lift your tongue slightly off your teeth, making a buzzing sound.
mh written above
mh' = same as mh, but make it more nasal and pull your lips closer to your teeth.
An example is the joke:
Tríar manach do·rat díultad dont ṡaegul.
Tíagait i fásach do aithrigi a peccad fri día.
Bátar cen labrad fri araile co cenn blíadnae.
Is and as·bert fer diib fri araile dia blíadnae, “Maith at·taam,” olse.
Amein co cenn blíadnae.
“Is maith ón,” ol in indara fer.
Bátar and íar suidiu co cenn blíadnae.
“Toingim fom aibit,” ol in tres fer, “mani·léicthe ciúnas dom co n-imgéb in fásach uile dúib.”
With translations here:
Listen here to Dennis King pronounce it correctly in Old Irish:
Edit: R,L,N are the normal sounds for the letters in Old Irish. They only became our sounds r,l,n when they were lenited (Nuair a séimhíodh iad). So to an old Irish speaker we're
constantly saying rh,lh,nh if you get my meaning.
slowburner, what are the towns and villages whose names you are interested in? The full list would be good, I'll be getting a chance to look at the original Dindsenchas this week.
Here's the most pertinent ones, kind sir.
I'm interested in these names as well but they are probably less relevant.
and there's a cluster of 'Kil's'
Not contributing, but thanking all for opening a world in so small a dichotomy, and so detailed, that, sorry, but much is going over my head.
I love hearing experts chat, it's a different language and I've never learn one, but listening to this and similar threads, is most fascinating.
*awaits next class with fevered anticipation*
Perhaps we should reconvene in the English forum, where you would, no doubt, be told that it was the singular of "you" that was lost (didst thou not remember that?).
Thou hast hit 'ye' nail squarely upon its head.
Where else could you put such a diverse range of expertise and thought together?
"Ye" as in "Ye Olde Pub" is due to fact that in English "Blackletter" that the letter þ (Thorn) had basically become identical to the letter y. The replacement of þ with th had only really started in 14th century and wasn't widespread. So in the case of "Ye Olde" it was still prononunced as "The olde", so completely different pronunciation meaning compared to the pronoun "Ye"
þ (Thorn) is still used as a letter in Icelandic for example)
I came across this lengthy but interesting quote from Bede's Ecclesiastical History of the English People while searching for more information on Maximus, the Roman governor of Britain who claimed to have invaded Ireland around 225 AD.
Further on (Historia 22) there is what must be one of the earliest references to distinguish Patrick from Palladius.
and from http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11554a.htm
Tough stuff this early history.