1. assume they were not ther
2. If you rule out the secret armour i have no idea how to explain it.
So given you can't explain it would you regard it as a miracle?
My point was that if there was divine intervention, why did they only intervene to save these 7 jesuits?
At leasr two others survived all be it in reenforced concrete bunkers underground. The question howeve was not why dod God just save these people but how do you explain them surviving?
Okay let us have it your way.
suppose the Us nuked Saddam and Baghdad was destroyed but six priests saying the rosary survived within a km of the blast. suppose the same happened in Kabul? Just how many groups of priests praying within 500m of blast center would it take for you to suspect something odd is being indicated?
Put it another way what is the p level of this happening totally by chance? at what p level will you accept something odd is happening? Why do you accept a drug like aspirin should work at a higher p level?
Yes, but they weren't the _only_ ones who survived, so you haven't proved there's anything exceptional about them.
Your logic seems to be:
"1. Of the many who survived the Hiroshima/Nagasaki bombings, _some_ of them were Christians.
2. Of the many killed in the Hiroshima/Nagasaki bombings, _some_ were also Christians.
Therefore, a miracle happened."
Does not compute. One could pick any other bunch of survivors from the bombings and - or any other disaster in history - and attempt to prove something from that.
And _again_, even if it was true, it merely proves your God is a capricious psychopath. Er, well done, I guess.
Statistically there is.
If one person in fifty survives a plane crash that is newsworthy.
If ten people in a hundred thousand survive a nuclear bomb and eight of those ten happen to be priests and then three days later another eight of ten happen to also be priests it is rather extraordinary. Granted the other two people at ground zero are also of interest but the fact of being in a reenforced concrete basement mitigates against the eight above ground praying priests.
Nope. Of the TEN people listed so far within 500-1000 metres of the centre of the blast 80% of them were Christian clergy when the population at that time was less than 1% Christian.
Of the people killed in Hiroshima less than one per cent had to be christian if the city had less than one per cent christian population.
As for Nagasaki - Less than one percent of the Japanese population was Christian, yet they comprised over ten percent of the bomb's victims in Nagasaki.
73,000 people died, over 8000 of whom were Christian
Source: John Whittier Treat, Writing Ground Zero: Japanese Literature and the Atomic Bomb (Chicago: U Chicago P, 1995) 302.
But the Jesuits were in Hiroshima.
so - Care to pick another bunck of survivors from within a km of the centre of either bomb?
Er no it doesn't!
The problem of evil http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil
does not necessitate a psychopathic God.
Many more than 10 people survived Hiroshima! There was approximately 400,000 people in Hiroshima (peak population in 1942), and approximately 70,000 were killed instantly.
Do you have independent figures - not, you know, a blog written by a believer, which states clearly:
* Only 10 people survived in the 1-mile radius.
* The location of the house where it's claimed Hubert Schiffer was at the time of the explosion.
* The names of the 8 people and where they were located.
* How the house was built (compared to the wooden building which much of the city was made out of)
I mean, with a few facts, we could have a discussion, but so far we have an anecdote.
How about evil where the god intervenes only occasionally and on behalf of believers? I like to hold my deities to the same moral standard I hold others. We're made in her image supposedly.
If you cannot engage in a discussion without accusing others of lying then perhaps this forum is not for you. You are free to challenge and dispute figues and purported facts presented by other posters - but calling other posters liars on the basis of disputed facts is unecessary and unwelcome.
Within 1000m of the blast centre?
The page for the reference linking to this "US dept of Energy" cannot be found.
How many of the 400,000 survived within 1000m of the bomb?
The page for the reference linking to this "US dept of Energy" cannot be found.
1. I'm not the one claiming loads of people survived at the blast centre. Im just saying I only know of ten people so for . Eight of them were Jesuit priests. Another was in an underground reenforced concrete bunker. If there were eight atheists having an above ground meeting to say God didn't exist and a priest in an underground bunker I would consider the eight atheists more significant.
2. the thread has provided pictures of what is left of it.
Depicts 11 buildings standing ( if that is waht you can call standing) within 500m of the centre.
All wooden houses were destroyed within a radius of two kilometers from the hypocenter. Even ferro-concrete structures were crushed by the power of the blast. Windows were smashed at a distance of sixteen kilometers.
Interestingly, concrete chimneys remained standing in the midst of the ashes. They were probably protected from the full force of the blast by their cylindrical shape.
Well you are free to supply whatever you wish. You are the one dissing the lists of victims. Please don't go down the "all history is anecdote" route.
The Hiroshima Peace and Culture Foundation has decided to newly videotape the testimonies of 100 A-bomb victims to commemorate the International Year of Peace 1986 to record the precious experiences of these survivors to be handed down to the future generations.
I suppose the WWII holocaust is also only anecdote?
how about the problem of evil not being solved by atheists philosophies?
and how about those atheistic regimes that slaughtered hundreds of millions of people?
See this isn't a discussion about the problem of evil it is a discussion as to how Franciscans and Jesuits survived at the hypocentre.
I note you ignored my post. Here are some points relevant to your post above. Note this is eyewitness testimony from a Jesuit priest and not just a regurgitated blog post.
From APPENDIX: Father John Siemes' eyewitness account, THE ATOMIC BOMBINGS OF HIROSHIMA AND NAGASAKI, by The Manhattan Engineer District, June 29, 1946. Project Gutenberg
There were only four priests. They were injured. The variance with the blog is sufficient to dismiss it as lies and propoganda.
So you profess a lack of knowledge about the actual facts but are willing to claim a miracle? Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. It seems you're willing to trumpet them based on a single blog post.
And here we have a typical stance by the religious: make an extraordinary claim, don't offer proof, but instead demand the other person disprove it!
Let's end it here; rational discussion of irrational claims is pointless, and if you wish to worship in a God who saves white Christians while the evil yellow heathen around them are incinerated, and think there's some kind of moral lesson there, go right ahead.
If you can show me how the following (just one example) is not a lie then I'll completely retract what I said.
Here's the source which supposedly says "solidly built Bank of Hiroshima." (Either read it or just simply search for the word "solidly".) I don't know about you, but I'd consider adding words to quotations highly dishonest. Dishonesty = lying.
the post wher the only comment you made was
Extraordinary evidence = TWO atomic bombs explode and TWO groups of priests survive within 500m of the hypocentre. One in a cityof ten per cent Christians and the other in a city of less than one per cent christians.
You ahve the evidence. If you are claiming lots and lots of non christians survived withing 500m then just list say a hundred of them and the number of Christians will be approaching statistical norms.
We have already been over that.
1.Nagasaki was the most Christian city in Japan
2. this isnt about the "problem of evil" but about you explaining extraordinary events.
The source is supplied by me if I recall? You didn't get it yourself. I list where I got it.
Note where i stated "above source says" the above saorce is listed as:
emphas s added by me
I then supplied the primary source listed
So you now will say i am "lying" or do you apologise for that and retract all that you stated?
My apologies. I was referencing your source (a source I had linked to earlier in this thread, here), not Wikipedia. It's worth pointing out that the source doesn't include any reference to the Bank of Hiroshima's building structure, nor does it include the word "solidly." It seems the author on Wikipedia has just added their own words.
so you completely retract what you said?
Oh so you don't completely retract what you said?
Which is it?
Obviously you seem to think Japanese banks and their vaults were built of straw and paper and not solidly built.
I apologised, which implies I retracted calling you a liar. To be crystal clear: I retract calling you a liar.
My point was that the source doesn't mention anything about the building's structure, yet Wikipedia uses it as a reference for a sentence mentioning the building's structure.
I found this article yesterday. (The guy may be a bit crazy... But it gives decent links and first hand accounts.) It's well worth reading. It talks about the disparity between various accounts of what happened to the Jesuits on that day.
Not at all. But I haven't found anything to say that the woman was in the vault. From all accounts I've read she was above ground. Yes, it was probably a well built building, but it certainly wasn't an underground bunker.
Interesting source. thanks. based on interviews with of all people Table B - "A calculation made by the British Mission to Japan" . If these were a Religious Mission do you assert their figures are "all lies and propaganda"?
The Eyewitness account mentions more than four Jesuits.
Father John A. Siemes
Father Kopp and the sisters
"Father Kopp returns, together with the Sisters. Their house and the entire district where they live has burned to the ground"
"What became of Father Superior and the three other Fathers ( "fathers" - four mentioned plus possibly some brothers or students) who were at the center of the city at the Central Mission and Parish House?"
Father Stolte and Father Erlinghagen
"a theology student and two kindergarten children, who lived at the Parish House and adjoining buildings which had burned down, came in and said that Father Superior LaSalle and Father Schiffer had been seriously injured"
Father Schiffer - one of the "four"
Father Cieslik and Father Kleinsorge - "two more"
Fukai, the secretary of the Mission
"As we carry them on the shaky litters in the dark over fallen trees of the park, they suffer unbearable pain as the result of the movement, and lose dangerously large quantities of blood. Our rescuing angel in this difficult situation is a Japanese Protestant pastor"
Father Tappe and Father Luhmer, - from Nagatsuke
teh Nagatsuka monestary was 4.5km from the hypocentre
Before the Nagatsuke fathers ther are nmore than eight Jesuits mentioned. I assume Brother Gropper was not present and was mentioned in that he built the Prayer house.
Based on your biased source:
It would seem the four are:
Fathers Hugo Lassalle,( the Superiour) Kleinsorge, Cieslik and Schiffer.
Now what about the Franciscans in Nagasaki?
I accept you apology and believe you actually mean it. Do you believe that penance is necessary or that just saying you were wrong is enough?
My point is that banks are not bulit from sticks and straw but usually more like the third little pigs house i.e. solidly built. especially in an earthquake region.
Thanks I'll read it later.
I'm surprised. What accounts have you read? If it was a bank it was a "solidly built building" If below ground the same as a bunker.