ISAW Banned
#61

NekkidBibleMan said:
That's not the discussion I was having. But on your question:

I don't know if the Jesuits were there. I don't know if they were the closest survivors to the blast.


i.e
1. assume they were not ther


If they were, it doesn't prove divine intervention.


ie.
2. If you rule out the secret armour i have no idea how to explain it.

So given you can't explain it would you regard it as a miracle?

[quote[
My point was that if there was divine intervention, why did they only intervene to save these 7 jesuits?


At leasr two others survived all be it in reenforced concrete bunkers underground. The question howeve was not why dod God just save these people but how do you explain them surviving?


Why not any of the other 80,000+ who died in the blast? It wasn't their fault they didn't live in a Christian society or know who Jesus was...


Okay let us have it your way.
suppose the Us nuked Saddam and Baghdad was destroyed but six priests saying the rosary survived within a km of the blast. suppose the same happened in Kabul? Just how many groups of priests praying within 500m of blast center would it take for you to suspect something odd is being indicated?

Put it another way what is the p level of this happening totally by chance? at what p level will you accept something odd is happening? Why do you accept a drug like aspirin should work at a higher p level?

oceanclub Registered User
#62

ISAW said:
But we are not discussing sole survivors of a plane crash with 50 people on board?
We are discussing how you explain Jesuits and Franciscans surviving nuclear weapons when hundreds of thousands didn't!


Yes, but they weren't the _only_ ones who survived, so you haven't proved there's anything exceptional about them.

Your logic seems to be:

"1. Of the many who survived the Hiroshima/Nagasaki bombings, _some_ of them were Christians.
2. Of the many killed in the Hiroshima/Nagasaki bombings, _some_ were also Christians.

Ergo:

Therefore, a miracle happened."

Does not compute. One could pick any other bunch of survivors from the bombings and - or any other disaster in history - and attempt to prove something from that.

And _again_, even if it was true, it merely proves your God is a capricious psychopath. Er, well done, I guess.

P.

ISAW Banned
#63

oceanclub said:
Yes, but they weren't the _only_ ones who survived, so you haven't proved there's anything exceptional about them.


Statistically there is.

If one person in fifty survives a plane crash that is newsworthy.

If ten people in a hundred thousand survive a nuclear bomb and eight of those ten happen to be priests and then three days later another eight of ten happen to also be priests it is rather extraordinary. Granted the other two people at ground zero are also of interest but the fact of being in a reenforced concrete basement mitigates against the eight above ground praying priests.


Your logic seems to be:

"1. Of the many who survived the Hiroshima/Nagasaki bombings, _some_ of them were Christians.


Nope. Of the TEN people listed so far within 500-1000 metres of the centre of the blast 80% of them were Christian clergy when the population at that time was less than 1% Christian.


2. Of the many killed in the Hiroshima/Nagasaki bombings, _some_ were also Christians.

http://www.rtjournal.org/vol_1/no_1/wetmore.html
Of the people killed in Hiroshima less than one per cent had to be christian if the city had less than one per cent christian population.
As for Nagasaki - Less than one percent of the Japanese population was Christian, yet they comprised over ten percent of the bomb's victims in Nagasaki.
73,000 people died, over 8000 of whom were Christian
Source: John Whittier Treat, Writing Ground Zero: Japanese Literature and the Atomic Bomb (Chicago: U Chicago P, 1995) 302.

But the Jesuits were in Hiroshima.


Therefore, a miracle happened."

Does not compute. One could pick any other bunch of survivors from the bombings and - or any other disaster in history - and attempt to prove something from that.


so - Care to pick another bunck of survivors from within a km of the centre of either bomb?


And _again_, even if it was true, it merely proves your God is a capricious psychopath.


Er no it doesn't!
The problem of evil http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil
does not necessitate a psychopathic God.

oceanclub Registered User
#64

ISAW said:
Statistically there is.

If one person in fifty survives a plane crash that is newsworthy.

If ten people in a hundred thousand survive a nuclear bomb and eight of those ten happen to be priests


Many more than 10 people survived Hiroshima! There was approximately 400,000 people in Hiroshima (peak population in 1942), and approximately 70,000 were killed instantly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki#Post-attack_casualties

Do you have independent figures - not, you know, a blog written by a believer, which states clearly:

* Only 10 people survived in the 1-mile radius.
* The location of the house where it's claimed Hubert Schiffer was at the time of the explosion.
* The names of the 8 people and where they were located.
* How the house was built (compared to the wooden building which much of the city was made out of)

I mean, with a few facts, we could have a discussion, but so far we have an anecdote.

Er no it doesn't!
The problem of evil http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil
does not necessitate a psychopathic God.


How about evil where the god intervenes only occasionally and on behalf of believers? I like to hold my deities to the same moral standard I hold others. We're made in her image supposedly.

P.

#65

If you cannot engage in a discussion without accusing others of lying then perhaps this forum is not for you. You are free to challenge and dispute figues and purported facts presented by other posters - but calling other posters liars on the basis of disputed facts is unecessary and unwelcome.

PDN

ISAW Banned
#66

oceanclub said:
Many more than 10 people survived Hiroshima!


Within 1000m of the blast centre?


There was approximately 400,000 people in Hiroshima (peak population in 1942), and approximately 70,000 were killed instantly.

The page for the reference linking to this "US dept of Energy" cannot be found.

How many of the 400,000 survived within 1000m of the bomb?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki#Post-attack_casualties
The page for the reference linking to this "US dept of Energy" cannot be found.


Do you have independent figures - not, you know, a blog written by a believer, which states clearly:

* Only 10 people survived in the 1-mile radius.
* The location of the house where it's claimed was at the time of the explosion.
* The names of the 8 people and where they were located.
* How the house was built (compared to the wooden building which much of the city was made out of)


1. I'm not the one claiming loads of people survived at the blast centre. Im just saying I only know of ten people so for . Eight of them were Jesuit priests. Another was in an underground reenforced concrete bunker. If there were eight atheists having an above ground meeting to say God didn't exist and a priest in an underground bunker I would consider the eight atheists more significant.

2. the thread has provided pictures of what is left of it.
http://www.pcf.city.hiroshima.jp/virtual/cgi-bin/museum.cgi?l=e&no=2000

Depicts 11 buildings standing ( if that is waht you can call standing) within 500m of the centre.

All wooden houses were destroyed within a radius of two kilometers from the hypocenter. Even ferro-concrete structures were crushed by the power of the blast. Windows were smashed at a distance of sixteen kilometers.
Interestingly, concrete chimneys remained standing in the midst of the ashes. They were probably protected from the full force of the blast by their cylindrical shape.


I mean, with a few facts, we could have a discussion, but so far we have an anecdote.


Well you are free to supply whatever you wish. You are the one dissing the lists of victims. Please don't go down the "all history is anecdote" route.

http://www.inicom.com/hibakusha/
The Hiroshima Peace and Culture Foundation has decided to newly videotape the testimonies of 100 A-bomb victims to commemorate the International Year of Peace 1986 to record the precious experiences of these survivors to be handed down to the future generations.

I suppose the WWII holocaust is also only anecdote?


How about evil where the god intervenes only occasionally and on behalf of believers? I like to hold my deities to the same moral standard I hold others. We're made in her image supposedly.


how about the problem of evil not being solved by atheists philosophies?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil

and how about those atheistic regimes that slaughtered hundreds of millions of people?

See this isn't a discussion about the problem of evil it is a discussion as to how Franciscans and Jesuits survived at the hypocentre.

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#67

ISAW said:
Within 1000m of the blast centre?


. Im just saying I only know of ten people so for . Eight of them were Jesuit priests. Another was in an underground reenforced concrete bunker. If there were eight atheists having an above ground meeting to say God didn't exist and a priest in an underground bunker I would consider the eight atheists more significant.



I note you ignored my post. Here are some points relevant to your post above. Note this is eyewitness testimony from a Jesuit priest and not just a regurgitated blog post.

Father Superior LaSalle and Father Schiffer had been seriously injured and that they had taken refuge in Asano Park on the river bank. It is obvious that we must bring them in since they are too weak to come here on foot.

At the far corner of the park, on the river bank itself, we at last come upon our colleagues. Father Schiffer is on the ground pale as a ghost. He has a deep incised wound behind the ear and has lost so much blood that we are concerned about his chances for survival. The Father Superior has suffered a deep wound of the lower leg. Father Cieslik and Father Kleinsorge have minor injuries but are completely exhausted.
From APPENDIX: Father John Siemes' eyewitness account, THE ATOMIC BOMBINGS OF HIROSHIMA AND NAGASAKI, by The Manhattan Engineer District, June 29, 1946. Project Gutenberg


There were only four priests. They were injured. The variance with the blog is sufficient to dismiss it as lies and propoganda.

1 person has thanked this post
oceanclub Registered User
#68

ISAW said:
1. I'm not the one claiming loads of people survived at the blast centre. Im just saying I only know of ten people so for .


So you profess a lack of knowledge about the actual facts but are willing to claim a miracle? Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. It seems you're willing to trumpet them based on a single blog post.

Well you are free to supply whatever you wish.


And here we have a typical stance by the religious: make an extraordinary claim, don't offer proof, but instead demand the other person disprove it!

Let's end it here; rational discussion of irrational claims is pointless, and if you wish to worship in a God who saves white Christians while the evil yellow heathen around them are incinerated, and think there's some kind of moral lesson there, go right ahead.

P.

#69

gvn said:
If you cannot engage in a discussion without accusing others of lying then perhaps this forum is not for you. You are free to challenge and dispute figues and purported facts presented by other posters - but calling other posters liars on the basis of disputed facts is unecessary and unwelcome.

PDN


If you can show me how the following (just one example) is not a lie then I'll completely retract what I said.

ISAW
Above source says:
She had been in the solidly built Bank of Hiroshima only 300 meters (980 ft) from ground-zero at the time of the attack..


Here's the source which supposedly says "solidly built Bank of Hiroshima." (Either read it or just simply search for the word "solidly".) I don't know about you, but I'd consider adding words to quotations highly dishonest. Dishonesty = lying.

ISAW Banned
#70

Mr. Presentable said:
I note you ignored my post.


What post?
the post wher the only comment you made was

The only survivors within that one mile radius were eight Jesuit priests



Here are some points relevant to your post above. Note this is eyewitness testimony from a Jesuit priest and not just a regurgitated blog post.

From APPENDIX: Father John Siemes' eyewitness account, THE ATOMIC BOMBINGS OF HIROSHIMA AND NAGASAKI, by The Manhattan Engineer District, June 29, 1946. Project Gutenberg


There were only four priests. They were injured. The variance with the blog is sufficient to dismiss it as lies and propoganda.


oceanclub said:
So you profess a lack of knowledge about the actual facts but are willing to claim a miracle? Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. It seems you're willing to trumpet them based on a single blog post.


Extraordinary evidence = TWO atomic bombs explode and TWO groups of priests survive within 500m of the hypocentre. One in a cityof ten per cent Christians and the other in a city of less than one per cent christians.


And here we have a typical stance by the religious: make an extraordinary claim, don't offer proof, but instead demand the other person disprove it!


You ahve the evidence. If you are claiming lots and lots of non christians survived withing 500m then just list say a hundred of them and the number of Christians will be approaching statistical norms.

Let's end it here; rational discussion of irrational claims is pointless, and if you wish to worship in a God who saves white Christians while the evil yellow heathen around them are incinerated, and think there's some kind of moral lesson there, go right ahead.


We have already been over that.
In fact
1.Nagasaki was the most Christian city in Japan
2. this isnt about the "problem of evil" but about you explaining extraordinary events.

gvn said:
If you can show me how the following (just one example) is not a lie then I'll completely retract what I said.


Here's the source which supposedly says "solidly built Bank of Hiroshima." (Either read it or just simply search for the word "solidly".) I don't know about you, but I'd consider adding words to quotations highly dishonest. Dishonesty = lying.


The source is supplied by me if I recall? You didn't get it yourself. I list where I got it.

Note where i stated "above source says" the above saorce is listed as:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki#Post-attack_casualties

emphas s added by me


Some of the reinforced concrete buildings in Hiroshima had been very strongly constructed because of the earthquake danger in Japan, and their framework did not collapse even though they were fairly close to the blast center. Eizo Nomura (野村 英三, Nomura Eizō?) was the closest known survivor, who was in the basement of a reinforced concrete building (it remained as the Rest House after the war) only 170 m (560 ft) from ground zero (the hypocenter) at the time of the attack.[49][50] Akiko Takakura (高蔵 信子, Takakura Akiko?) was among the closest survivors to the hypocenter of the blast. She had been in the solidly built Bank of Hiroshima only 300 meters (980 ft) from ground-zero at the time of the attack.[51]


I then supplied the primary source[51] listed

So you now will say i am "lying" or do you apologise for that and retract all that you stated?

#71

ISAW said:
So you now will say i am "lying" or do you apologise for that and retract all that you stated?


My apologies. I was referencing your source (a source I had linked to earlier in this thread, here), not Wikipedia. It's worth pointing out that the source doesn't include any reference to the Bank of Hiroshima's building structure, nor does it include the word "solidly." It seems the author on Wikipedia has just added their own words.

ISAW Banned
#72

gvn said:
My apologies.


so you completely retract what you said?

It seems the author on Wikipedia has just added their own words.


Oh so you don't completely retract what you said?
Which is it?

Obviously you seem to think Japanese banks and their vaults were built of straw and paper and not solidly built.

#73

ISAW said:
so you completely retract what you said?


I apologised, which implies I retracted calling you a liar. To be crystal clear: I retract calling you a liar.

My point was that the source doesn't mention anything about the building's structure, yet Wikipedia uses it as a reference for a sentence mentioning the building's structure.

I found this article yesterday. (The guy may be a bit crazy... But it gives decent links and first hand accounts.) It's well worth reading. It talks about the disparity between various accounts of what happened to the Jesuits on that day.

Obviously you seem to think Japanese banks and their vaults were built of straw and paper and not solidly built.


Not at all. But I haven't found anything to say that the woman was in the vault. From all accounts I've read she was above ground. Yes, it was probably a well built building, but it certainly wasn't an underground bunker.

ISAW Banned
#74

Mr. Presentable said:
I note you ignored my post. Here are some points relevant to your post above. Note this is eyewitness testimony from a Jesuit priest and not just a regurgitated blog post.

From APPENDIX: Father John Siemes' eyewitness account, THE ATOMIC BOMBINGS OF HIROSHIMA AND NAGASAKI, by The Manhattan Engineer District, June 29, 1946. Project Gutenberg


There were only four priests. They were injured. The variance with the blog is sufficient to dismiss it as lies and propoganda.


Interesting source. thanks. based on interviews with of all people Table B - "A calculation made by the British Mission to Japan" . If these were a Religious Mission do you assert their figures are "all lies and propaganda"?
http://www.cddc.vt.edu/host/atomic/hiroshim/hiro_med.html#CASUALTIES

The Eyewitness account mentions more than four Jesuits.

Father John A. Siemes
Brother Gropper
Father Kopp and the sisters
"Father Kopp returns, together with the Sisters. Their house and the entire district where they live has burned to the ground"

"What became of Father Superior and the three other Fathers ( "fathers" - four mentioned plus possibly some brothers or students) who were at the center of the city at the Central Mission and Parish House?"
Father Stolte and Father Erlinghagen
"a theology student and two kindergarten children, who lived at the Parish House and adjoining buildings which had burned down, came in and said that Father Superior LaSalle and Father Schiffer had been seriously injured"
Father Rektor
Father Schiffer - one of the "four"
Father Cieslik and Father Kleinsorge - "two more"
Fukai, the secretary of the Mission
Father Kleinsorge
"As we carry them on the shaky litters in the dark over fallen trees of the park, they suffer unbearable pain as the result of the movement, and lose dangerously large quantities of blood. Our rescuing angel in this difficult situation is a Japanese Protestant pastor"
Father Kruer
Father Tappe and Father Luhmer, - from Nagatsuke
Father Stolte
Father Laures
teh Nagatsuka monestary was 4.5km from the hypocentre

Before the Nagatsuke fathers ther are nmore than eight Jesuits mentioned. I assume Brother Gropper was not present and was mentioned in that he built the Prayer house.
http://www.nhk.or.jp/hiroshima/hibakumap/e/spot/BD-0073.html

Based on your biased source:
http://www.lazyboysreststop.com/mary25.htm

It would seem the four are:
Fathers Hugo Lassalle,( the Superiour) Kleinsorge, Cieslik and Schiffer.

Now what about the Franciscans in Nagasaki?

ISAW Banned
#75

gvn said:
I apologised, which implies I retracted calling you a liar. To be crystal clear: I retract calling you a liar.


I accept you apology and believe you actually mean it. Do you believe that penance is necessary or that just saying you were wrong is enough?

My point was that the source doesn't mention anything about the building's structure, yet Wikipedia uses it as a reference for a sentence mentioning the building's structure.


My point is that banks are not bulit from sticks and straw but usually more like the third little pigs house i.e. solidly built. especially in an earthquake region.


I found this article yesterday. It's well worth reading. (And it's decently sourced.) It talks about the disparity between various accounts of what happened to the Jesuits on that day.


Thanks I'll read it later.


Not at all. But I haven't found anything to say that the woman was in the vault. From all accounts I've read she was above ground. Yes, it was probably a well built building, but it certainly wasn't an underground bunker.


I'm surprised. What accounts have you read? If it was a bank it was a "solidly built building" If below ground the same as a bunker.

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