fontanalis Banned
#211

dubhthach said:
I think people get abit too hung up on the P/Q celtic divide. Looking at Welsh now obviously it seems quite alien compared to Irish but when you understand the orthographical differences you can see words that have common meanings. They reckon that the spilt between Irish and Welsh could be about 2,500 years, given that neither was written for a further 1,000 years it's not surprising that they look different, but in sense the basic P/Q divide is like the "High German" shift. For example Dutch only shifted th ->d but it didn't do for example d -> t (English: day, Dutch: Dag, German: Tag) or t -> ss (english that, German dass

As for Cruithne I can't really comment as I don't know enough though the medieval Dal nAirde are purported to be their successors. If they had originally been p-celtic then they had undergone language shift. Given the closeness of the two languages at the time this wouldn't have been too hard (lot easier then shifting Irish to English for example).

The Connachta if you believe the ancient Genealogists are descended from Conn Cétchathach (Conn of the 100 battles). Who supposedly lived in the 2nd century around the time of Marcus Aurelis and who ruled the northern half of Ireland (line from Galway to Dublin) as Leath Cuinn (Conn's half). The southern half (leath Mugh) been ruled by the ancestor of the Éoganacht: Mug Nuadat

However alot of Irish history at this stage is purely conjucture if not outright mythology in it's own way. It would seem that the history books were rewritten by the Uí Neill for dynastic propaganda.


Is there any truth to the charge that they moved the seat of the high king to Tara from a more western location?

dubhthach Registered User
#212

fontanalis said:
Is there any truth to the charge that they moved the seat of the high king to Tara from a more western location?


I don't think we'll ever know tbh. Obviously the Connachta were mostly based out of Cruachain Ai in what's now Roscommon but I think Tara was always associated with High Kingship. Before the rise of the Uí Neill it would seem that some of the "high kings" were of the Laigin. For example the annals talk about the death of "Mac Caírthinn Uí Enechglaiss" in battle in Kingdom of Brega (Eastern-Meath) in the mid 5th century. What's interesting is that there is an Ogham stone in Slane that verifies the existance of this king. The stone says
"MAQI CAIRATINI AVI INEQUAGLASI"

It's reckoned he was killed in the battle that saw the Uí Neill take Tara. Generally it's reckoned that history was rewritten by the Uí Neill in the period after their ascent to power. For example the oldest know king list dates to period 700-720 and is called "Baile Chuind Chétchathaig" (Baile = Buile = mania/frenzy, in this case the vision frenzy of Conn of hundred battles) which has Conn having a vision about the future kings. Or in other words justifying the Uí Neill pocession of the throne as it had been predicted by Conn.

Propaganda and rewriting is fairly common thoughout history. For example the Dál gCais wrote "Cogad Gáedel re Gallaib" (the war of the irish with the foreigner) to emphasise Brian Boru defeat over the "wicked pagan" vikings.

Anyways if you had sent your 23andme sample in early december you should log in and see if there is an update. Mine says:

Lab processing complete. Data loaded on January 22, 2011. Allow 3 business days for Quality Control.

fontanalis Banned
#213

Data processing complete; three days and I'll know.
What did yours reveal?

dubhthach Registered User
#214

fontanalis said:
Data processing complete; three days and I'll know.
What did yours reveal?


Well it confirmed that I was 100% European and placed me right in the middle of the Irish population cluster. Interesting I'm a carrier of a gene that can cause the mild form of Haemochromotosis (you need to have two copies to suffer from the condition) which is interesting as we have the highest levels of Haemochromotosis in the world (it's believe it might originate in "Celtic" populations)

Once Dienekes reopens the submission period I'll submit it to the Dodecad project so I can get a more fine grain result on the specific ancestor clusters. Given that I'm in the middle of the Irish cluster I would reckon my genetic admixture is fairly typical of most Irish people eg. 65%~ North European, 25-27%~ South European, 7-10% West Asian

My wife who is a Filipina comes back as 87% Asian, 12% European and <1% African, not surprising as one of her Great-Gandfathers was Spanish.

fontanalis Banned
#215

I still can't get my head around the admixture percentages; take the 7% West Eurasian, what does that mean?
Are you aware fo any studies focusing on Irish ancestry that I can give my results to?

dubhthach Registered User
#216

fontanalis said:
I still can't get my head around the admixture percentages; take the 7% West Eurasian, what does that mean?
Are you aware fo any studies focusing on Irish ancestry that I can give my results to?


Well it appears to be made up possibly of two things.
  • Agriculture developed in the middle east (Fertile crescent), as a result the first farmers would have some west-asian admixture
  • It appears that the proto-Indo Europeans assimilated a population with a "west asian" genetic profile at a very early stage


With regards the Indo-European theory this can be seen with "west asian" admixture in all Indo-European language populations in Europe. you don't see it however in the Basques who telling speak a non-IE language.

The modal population for this component appears to be in a population sampled in Dagestan (Caucasus). The modal population for "South European" is the population in Sardinia, whereas the highest percentage for "North European" is among the Finns and Lithuanian

http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2010/12/fine-scale-admixture-in-europe.html.

The Dodecad project currently has 8 Irish participants. It's not accepting submissions at the moment but when he opens it up again I'm going to submit my raw data.
http://dodecad.blogspot.com/

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fontanalis Banned
#217

My data is up; I2b1. Was expecting M222.

dubhthach Registered User
#218

Well Haplogroup I tends to make up the bulk of the Irish male population that isn't R1b, you could be potentially one of the very first Irish or you could be a viking

I believe there is a specific subclade of I2b1 that appears to have developed in Britian and Ireland (I2b1a) generally the best place to go for Y-Chromosome testing is familytreedna. They will give you STR markers on your Y which can be used to see if you belong to a specific cluster of I2b1 they will also do further testing further down the line to see if you belong to a specific sub-haplogroup. I did all my Y testing with them a couple months ago.

fontanalis Banned
#219

dubhthach said:
Well Haplogroup I tends to make up the bulk of the Irish male population that isn't R1b, you could be potentially one of the very first Irish or you could be a viking

I believe there is a specific subclade of I2b1 that appears to have developed in Britian and Ireland (I2b1a) generally the best place to go for Y-Chromosome testing is familytreedna. They will give you STR markers on your Y which can be used to see if you belong to a specific cluster of I2b1 they will also do further testing further down the line to see if you belong to a specific sub-haplogroup. I did all my Y testing with them a couple months ago.


A bloody blow in! Interesting stuff, a lot of digging around to do.
Also maternal haplogroup H3.

dubhthach Registered User
#220

fontanalis said:
A bloody blow in! Interesting stuff, a lot of digging around to do.
Also maternal haplogroup H3.


Well no not necessary. If any male lineage in Europe could be regarded as "Native european" then it's probably Haplogroup I, it appears to be that of the earliest men in Europe. In comparison R1b which I am developed in central Asia/Plains of Russia.

My Mitrochondrial haplogroup is U4 which appears quite common in Scandinavia/eastern europe. I believe mt Haplogroup H is among the most common in Ireland.

If you do a search of my username on 23andme we can share see if there are any shared segments.

eh2010 Registered User
#221

dubhthach said:
The Genghis Khan effect indeed. Niall is generally ranked up there with him in this regard. However more then likely he isn't the originater given that families with other Connachta "dynasties" carry M222 as well (Uí Briúin, Uí Fiachra). One funny thing about M222 that most people don't know is that a very high proportion of O'Neill's (surname not dynastic group) aren't M222. It would seem there was a NPE (non-paternal event) occured sometime between the 12th and 14th century.

TBH the ruling dynasties of "Gaelic Ireland" are always going to be well represented. What potentially might happen in the future is that a new SNP is found that divides M222. For example there might be one that is only found in M222 men who have names connected with the Uí Briúin (O'Connor, O'Rourke, O'Malley, O'Flaherty etc.) so it's still worthwhile to test men who are M222. I think one thing that would be good is if we have more testing from people bearing "minor" names. What I mean is names that are not connected to kings etc. (my name would be an example: Duffy).

Here's an image from 2006 regarding Niall's purported STR signature. As you can see it reaches a peak in around Inishowen and in Connacht (Uí Briúin)



How would you know if you're descended from Niall of the 9 hostages?.

dubhthach Registered User
#222

eh2010 said:
How would you know if you're descended from Niall of the 9 hostages?.


Get your Y-Chromosome analysed is the simple answer. There is a specific "Haplotype" (collection of marker repeats) that is associated with men who bear surnames connected to the Uí Néill as well as their relatives in the wider Connachta (Uí Briúin and Uí Fiachrach). There is also a specific SNP (single nucleotide polymorphism) called M222 that defines this specific clade of men. Basically all men who teste positive for M222 are descended from one man who lived 1600-1900 years ago. Given high level of M222 among men bearing surnames connected to Connachta and Uí Néill it looks like Niall probably bore it (if he actually existed). Above map is actually distrubition of men who carry this haplotype. It peaks in Donegal and also in West Roscommon (home of the O'Connors, Flanagans, McDermots and McDonaghs all of the Uí Briúin)

2 people have thanked this post
eh2010 Registered User
#223

dubhthach said:
Get your Y-Chromosome analysed is the simple answer. There is a specific "Haplotype" (collection of marker repeats) that is associated with men who bear surnames connected to the Uí Néill as well as their relatives in the wider Connachta (Uí Briúin and Uí Fiachrach). There is also a specific SNP (single nucleotide polymorphism) called M222 that defines this specific clade of men. Basically all men who teste positive for M222 are descended from one man who lived 1600-1900 years ago. Given high level of M222 among men bearing surnames connected to Connachta and Uí Néill it looks like Niall probably bore it (if he actually existed). Above map is actually distrubition of men who carry this haplotype. It peaks in Donegal and also in West Roscommon (home of the O'Connors, Flanagans, McDermots and McDonaghs all of the Uí Briúin)


Ok. If you could trace a surname in your family to one of Niall's sons do you think that would mean you're related to him?

dubhthach Registered User
#224

eh2010 said:
Ok. If you could trace a surname in your family to one of Niall's sons do you think that would mean you're related to him?


Well it's a start that's for sure. However there's a number of caveats here:
  • Irish genealogies were tampered with for political purposes
  • Non-Paternal Events (NPE) occur


For example it looks like the main line of the O'Neill family suffered a NPE event probably back in 12-14th century. There are O'Neill's who are M222 but majority aren't see:
http://www.jogg.info/22/ONeill.pdf

O'Neill's are of the Cinél Eoghain which are descendants of Niall's son Eoghan. Though in their case they are specifically the descendants of Niall Glundubh who was High King of Ireland and killed fighting the Vikings in 919AD (or thereabouts)

tomasocarthaigh Registered User
#225

Anyone familiar with Travellers legends of them being the origional Irish folk before the arrival of the last of the Celts?

Its an interesting theory, and the Shelta language that they have could very well the the remnants of the "Iron" language of the bards (from whom the Wards take their name... Mac an Bhaird).

Feedback please, and no need for deragatory comments...

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