[eager tortoise]

Hi,

Myself and my OH are both teachers and are currently renting a house which is going up for sale later this year. We are seriously interested in buying this house but neither of us have permanent contracts or CIDs. My boyfriend is one year away from his and has been on full hours the last couple of years in a school in a growing area so things look good on that front. I however have been moving from Billy to Jack as you do and so am going to start year one yet again this coming September. We are fortunate at least in that neither of us has ever been out of work.

AIB has told us that without a C.I.D. neither of us can be considered for a mortgage. My question is does anyone know is this is the case with ALL banks?? I'm sincerely hoping it's not!

Also, apologies if this is not really a teaching questions, I just figured that I might be most likely to find someone who has been through a similar situation on this forum.

[Millem]

Originally Posted by eager tortoise

Hi,

Myself and my OH are both teachers and are currently renting a house which is going up for sale later this year. We are seriously interested in buying this house but neither of us have permanent contracts or CIDs. My boyfriend is one year away from his and has been on full hours the last couple of years in a school in a growing area so things look good on that front. I however have been moving from Billy to Jack as you do and so am going to start year one yet again this coming September. We are fortunate at least in that neither of us has ever been out of work.

AIB has told us that without a C.I.D. neither of us can be considered for a mortgage. My question is does anyone know is this is the case with ALL banks?? I'm sincerely hoping it's not!

Also, apologies if this is not really a teaching questions, I just figured that I might be most likely to find someone who has been through a similar situation on this forum.

Even if you guys managed to get a mortgage a lot of schools are reducing the hours in the 4th year which is something I would be concerned about. I think AIB are meant to be the easiest to get a mortgage off and give 92%. BOI give 90%. One thing the don't include is S&S payment (even though it is guaranteed!) maybe if this was moved to accommodation and property forum you might get a better answer! AIB and BOI told me they will lend me 5 times my salary as a single applicant (I have a CID).

[RealJohn]

I don't mean to come across as patronising here but have you two learned nothing from the mess the rest of the country is in?

Buying a house without job security is idiotic. The banks won't touch you if they have any sense and you shouldn't be trying to find a way around this, not to mention that you'd want to be very, very certain of your boyfriend to be buying a house with him.

I understand that you like the house and don't want to lose it but in the real world, sometimes you have to accept that you don't always get what you want. The least you should do is talk to your landlord, explain the situation and ask him to hold off on selling the house until your boyfriend has his CID. He might be very happy to be able to sell the house to people he already knows and avoid an estate agent's fee.

I hope this works out for you but by that, I don't necessarily mean that I hope you get the mortgage. It sounds like a bad idea to me.

[rainbowtrout]

Would agree with the above post.

Don't know if anyone is still doing it but maybe you could approach the landlord with a rent to buy offer. Offer to rent for a further 2 years or whatever it takes for your boyfriend to get CID and get a deposit together. If things work out financially you buy the house at the end of the agreed rental period and the rent you paid in that time goes towards part of the cost of the house. If not you walk away, landlord still has his house, no harm done.

[eager tortoise]

Originally Posted by RealJohn

I don't mean to come across as patronising here but have you two learned nothing from the mess the rest of the country is in?Buying a house without job security is idiotic. The banks won't touch you if they have any sense and you shouldn't be trying to find a way around this, not to mention that you'd want to be very, very certain of your boyfriend to be buying a house with him.

Ouch! I may have sounded flippant in my first post, but we are not that young or ill-informed; yes, I understand we are in the midst of a financial crisis, but we still need somewhere to live. The reason we are so seriously considering this house is because we think it is competitively priced and has a great location close to the city. Also, we have savings that would cover a deposit. We are looking to get a modest mortgage based on one salary only so that we can cover it even if one of us is not working.

Anyway, this is slightly beside the point (as is my relationship with the OH, but thanks for the concern!). I just think it is unjust that because you do not yet have a C.I.D you cannot be considered for a mortgage. I'm not trying to "get around" anything. I'm just making the point that, as so many teachers are unable to get 4 years consecutive work in one school, surely there are many many people who, despite working full-time, will effectively be excluded from buying a house for God knows how many years. I have friends who have mortgages and work for private sector companies. Who is to say that any of them will be employed this time next year any more than I won't?

Thanks for the replies and ideas. I'd just be interested to hear if anyone has got a mortgage without a C.I.D.?

[Millem]

Originally Posted by eager tortoise

Ouch! I may have sounded flippant in my first post, but we are not that young or ill-informed; yes, I understand we are in the midst of a financial crisis, but we still need somewhere to live. The reason we are so seriously considering this house is because we think it is competitively priced and has a great location close to the city. Also, we have savings that would cover a deposit. We are looking to get a modest mortgage based on one salary only so that we can cover it even if one of us is not working.

Anyway, this is slightly beside the point (as is my relationship with the OH, but thanks for the concern!). I just think it is unjust that because you do not yet have a C.I.D you cannot be considered for a mortgage. I'm not trying to "get around" anything. I'm just making the point that, as so many teachers are unable to get 4 years consecutive work in one school, surely there are many many people who will effectively be excluded from buying a house for God knows how many years. I have friends who have mortgages and work for private sector companies. Who is to say that any of them will be employed this time next year any more than I won't?

Thanks for the replies and ideas. I'd just be interested to hear if anyone has got a mortgage on a C.I.D.?

Do you mean without a CID? I have a CID and my salary certificate from department states my position is permanent so I presume that is on all certificates. I remember a colleague of mine was covering a sick leave and got a mortgage she has since lost her job! But it was different times back them. Seriously ask the question on the accommodation and property forum, there is a guy there who is a mortgage broker he could answer this question for you! He has been giving great advice over there.

[eager tortoise]

Originally Posted by Millem

Do you mean without a CID? I have a CID and my salary certificate from department states my position is permanent so I presume that is on all certificates. I remember a colleague of mine was covering a sick leave and got a mortgage she has since lost her job! But it was different times back them. Seriously ask the question on the accommodation and property forum, there is a guy there who is a mortgage broker he could answer this question for you! He has been giving great advice over there.

Yes, I meant without! Oops. Thanks Millem, I'll try the property forum.

[seavill]

I got a mortgage about 3 and 1/2 years ago a month into my 2nd year teaching. Not on a permanent contract. Had just moved school also.

From my own experience, which you won't agree with but here it goes anyway, I would say do not get the mortgage until the CID is there. You are crazy to consider it, this is based on my own experience.

The redeployment situation has made all of us even more insecure in our positions over the past 2 years.

People will say I was stupid but at the time the job I had was guaranteed, until everything went belly up.

I now spend the last few months of school worrying will I lose my house in a few months if someone gets redeployed into my position.

Think very very very carefully. If I was back in the same position again knowing what I know now (basically your position) never in a million years would I go for the mortgage until the CID is in my hand.

Its all well and good thinking things are secure but you never know what the shower of ****ing idiots in the Dail will do next for cuts.

I would also say you would find it extremely difficult to find a bank to give you the money without a CID. I found it difficult and that was before cuts and redeployment and the banks losing so much money.

My advice: don't do it

[eager tortoise]

Originally Posted by seavill

I got a mortgage about 3 and 1/2 years ago a month into my 2nd year teaching. Not on a permanent contract. Had just moved school also.

From my own experience, which you won't agree with but here it goes anyway, I would say do not get the mortgage until the CID is there. You are crazy to consider it, this is based on my own experience.

Thanks for that Seavill. I wouldn't disagree with someone's lived experience at all, I was interested to hear from people who had bought without CID so appreciate you sharing your story. I understand as well what you mean about just not knowing where the cuts may come from next. I suppose we will just have to consider it all very carefully but if the mortgage is a non-starter then we'll have nothing to consider anyway. Ah well. I guess I just was not aware that people without CID's were so dismissable on the mortgage front, even though they are earning.

Thanks again for your advice

[Millem]

Thanks for that Seavill. I wouldn't disagree with someone's lived experience at all, I was interested to hear from people who had bought without CID so appreciate you sharing your story. I understand as well what you mean about just not knowing where the cuts may come from next. I suppose we will just have to consider it all very carefully but if the mortgage is a non-starter then we'll have nothing to consider anyway. Ah well. I guess I just was not aware that people without CID's were so dismissable on the mortgage front, even though they are earning.

Thanks again for your advice [/Quote]

AIB told me they are only lending to certain professions even though people may be permanent!

[seavill]

Originally Posted by eager tortoise

Thanks for that Seavill. I wouldn't disagree with someone's lived experience at all, I was interested to hear from people who had bought without CID so appreciate you sharing your story. I understand as well what you mean about just not knowing where the cuts may come from next. I suppose we will just have to consider it all very carefully but if the mortgage is a non-starter then we'll have nothing to consider anyway. Ah well. I guess I just was not aware that people without CID's were so dismissable on the mortgage front, even though they are earning.

Thanks again for your advice

It's really not for the side of the bank I would be looking at this. Yes you may not be considered by many if any banks but that is not really the way you should be thinking of it really.

Go onto the banks websites and most have mortgage calculators. Figure out how much your repayments would be per month if you went for it.

Now consider how much you would be earning if you lost your job and got the odd 2 or 3 days a month subbing. Also as is a thing that happens your OH hours get cut in his 4th year to stop him getting a full CID, so maybe down to 14 hours a week.

Calculate how much this will leave you with. now add car, petrol, insurance, bills etc. how much have you left at the end of the month to spend with one person on 14 hours. does this add up to covering the mortgage? If it does how much do you have left to live on for a month, for EVERYTHING else.

Add in legal costs of buying the house etc. your savings are gone with the deposit. You may only get 80% or something like that also. How much of a deposit will you need?

I have survived a couple of months without work but this was down to savings. I would not have lasted any longer tbh.

Even waiting one more year until you see how many hours he has in his 4th contract. is that a possibility. Despite how much you love the house, there are always other, better houses.

Had I waited until today I could have got a much bigger house in a nicer estate for less that what I paid for here, only 3 mins away.

Calculate what I mentioned above. Forget about whether or not the bank will actually give you one or not first and decide firstly can you afford it and have no savings left. Can you afford it with one perosn on 22 hours and one on 0. Can you afford it with one on 14 hours and one on 0. What if you commit to this house and next year lose your job but are lucky to get another one 3 hours away, where are you then? At least with a CID you can settle in the area, without you really don't know where you are going to be from one year to the next.

You may think that this will never happen. I did TWICE, however I have just been extremely lucky SO FAR. My mortgage is a constant worry.

There will always be loads of houses, I was the same as you thinking I had to have this one, it was at a great price.

Be happy and save save save. In 2 years time you will need a much smaller mortgage and in the end of the day save yourself an absolute fortune.

You won't have to pick your jaw up off the ground when you sign the contract in the solicitors where it says how much the house is and then underneath how much it's really going to cost you over the next 35 years. (I think my heart actually stopped for a little while at that moment) double it and then add another good bit and you are somewhere close.

[rainbowtrout]

Originally Posted by eager tortoise

Thanks for that Seavill. I wouldn't disagree with someone's lived experience at all, I was interested to hear from people who had bought without CID so appreciate you sharing your story. I understand as well what you mean about just not knowing where the cuts may come from next. I suppose we will just have to consider it all very carefully but if the mortgage is a non-starter then we'll have nothing to consider anyway. Ah well. I guess I just was not aware that people without CID's were so dismissable on the mortgage front, even though they are earning.

Thanks again for your advice

Ah here, you've said yourself you've been moving around to get work. You don't have a stable job, why the hell would a bank give you a mortgage when you are a massive risk and in real danger of having no job next year? Not wishing it on you, but the cuts keep coming.

Anyone who is in a job is earning, but that doesn't make them eligible for a mortgage. Job stability is key. You can't guarantee (and neither can your boyfriend) that either of you will have work a year from now, which translates in financial terms that neither of you can guarantee that you will be able to pay your mortgage a year from now. There is no bank in this country that will give you a mortgage at the moment. I just can't believe I'm seeing these posts four years into a recession where people are losing jobs left, right and centre, many of which are up to their eyes in mortgage debt.

[eager tortoise]

Originally Posted by rainbowtrout

Anyone who is in a job is earning, but that doesn't make them eligible for a mortgage. Job stability is key.

Fair point!

Originally Posted by rainbowtrout

I just can't believe I'm seeing these posts four years into a recession where people are losing jobs left, right and centre, many of which are up to their eyes in mortgage debt.

I'm not as naive as you might imagine; the only reason I brought this up is because we wanted to buy a small house the mortgage of which would be no more than the rent we are currently paying (a relative is a retired mortgage broker and did some rough figures for us based on a couple of banks' fixed and variable rates). I have no desire to take on a huge mortgage debt and I certainly would not take on any if I did not think we had any prospects of employment. It is conceivable that we could both lose our jobs (the worst case scenario) but we have considered that and talked about renting the second room, or renting the whole house if necessary.

I'm really not trying to dismiss what you have to say (Rainbow Trout, RealJohn and Seavill). On the contrary, you have given me lots of food for thought (especially your posts Seavill, I've been reading those very carefully). If I am being honest I just posted here because lets face it, we all know people who have been working and working and working for years and years without getting a CID. I have tried to be optimistic and say oh well, at least I am working etc. but I never realised just how disadvantaged we were without that bit of paper. Perhaps that was my naivety. Oh well.

Thanks for all the input.

[linguist]

Hi! Limited in the amount of detail I want to go into...small world and all that.

However, I got my Celtic Tiger mortgage a few years ago when in 'permanent' privately-paid employment. Alas, that didn't last.

Since then, I've been back in the RPT circus. Yes it's stressful at times but depending on your subjects you are unlikely to be unemployed long term. Everyone, even the Government, acknowledges that there will be a need for more teachers.

The problem you face is getting somebody to lend you the money obviously. I'd say your prospects of being able to meet your obligations once you get it are pretty good overall.

Your case illustrates the deplorable situation we have where teachers are getting hours as opposed to proper full-time jobs and the abject failure of the haves in our profession to stand up and be counted and draw the attention of public opinion to the fact that if this is allowed to continue, fewer and fewer young graduates will want to enter into this quagmire.

[linguist]

Felt the need to come back again, because when I reflected on my above post, I realised that there is a major hole in it.

What is a permanent job? The only people who arguably have them work in the public sector. Anyone in the private sector can be let go tomorrow if the employer sees fit - the only thing is that they would get redundancy which obviously an unfortunate RPT teacher won't.

So here's the ridiculous thing about this. A private sector worker who walks in with a letter from his boss saying he's permanent can get a mortgage. But ultimately, that letter is meaningless if the firm slims down or goes out of business. Then, of course, there is the fact that many private sector workers change employer numerous times in their career.

The next thing is the fact that surely people should be assessed for a mortgage on the basis of their skills, qualifications and the likely relevance of these in the future. As I said in my first post, it is clear that teachers do have a good future in Ireland once somebody wakes up to the fact that a few hours is not a job! If you are in your second, third or fourth year rpt and your subjects are in demand in the school, you should be just as good a bet for lenders as any private sector worker.

The very fact that banks still have a hangup about the largely meaningless concept of permanent employment (certainly in the private sector) underlines the foolish assumptions that brought them and the country to where we are now.

In short, if you're happy to take the risk, I think you should try some of these arguments out on your bank manager. However, be warned, he's probably still living somewhere back in 2008 because that's when they were looked after!