[pseudofax]

This is a decent article. It basically references a bloomberg article claiming that the Irish bailout is in essence the most expensive and farcical in the modern European era. I hate to say it, but I seriously question the viability of this country in future years. Not even 70 years of independence and here we are handing away our nation to the Germans. It would be funny and light hearted if it wasn't actually so serious, economically speaking. The Republic of Ireland is a shambles. Time to hand Ireland back to the Queen. We simply can't run it properly ourselves

What do you think, is it all a bit sensationalist, or does the truth ring true?

http://www.businesspost.ie/#!story/Home/News/COMMENT%3A+The+most+expensive+bank+bailout+ever/id/19410615-5218-4f97-b6a8-d285c7295139

[Kaiser2000]

I'd tend to echo your sentiments OP and have said the same here before - as a people we are simply too selfish, parochial, greedy and short-sighted (or to put it another way, immature) to be let at the controls of a nation.

Instead of dealing with national issues our elected officials spend time lining their own pockets, creating dynasties where not one of the family has done anything outside of "public life" and scoring points at home by fixing potholes.

We of course enable this behaviour by our admiration of the "cute hoor" and sympathise with those who are occasionally caught ("sure haven't they nothing better to be doing") and our own personal desires to get our snouts into the trough as well.

In short, we weren't/aren't ready as a nation for "independence". We NEED someone to tell us what to do and make the big decisions for us. Sure we will whine and bitch about it down the pub and online, but secretly we all know that we're not up to it - which is why we stand meekly by regardless of what outrageous scandal breaks in the news.

Expect lots of pro-Europe and nationalist types along shortly though to tell you how wrong you are with plenty of internet links to prove their point, but the reality is that we can all post whatever we like - it's not going to change anything until the electorate DEMAND better, not just of their representatives in government, but Irish society in general.

But ah shure, as long as I have my pint and my soaps who cares right?

[Sand]

Costly for who though?

Lets face it, if you were a large depositor in Irish banks or a holder of Irish bonds, would the bailout out of Irish banks be "costly"? Given the that the banks you invested in were ineptly run and bankrupt, the Irish bailout might have been costly for Irish people like myself who were not invested in Irish banks but it would have been mana from heaven for those who foolishly put their money with AIB and BoI. As the two "pillar" banks of Ireland, a bailout of AIB and BoI is priceless for those who stand to benefit - mainly "Official Ireland".

We are told about moral hazard, and the need to ensure that every Irish person is pursued for every cent of debt they foolishly took out from an Irish bank, without a gun against their head. Meanwhile, where is the moral hazard for Patrick Neary? Or Bertie Ahern? Or Brian Cowen? In Ireland, moral hazard, likes taxes, is for little people.

The Irish bailout is only costly depending on your perspective. If you had huge deposits with AIB or BOI a bailout is not costly, regardless of cost. Otherwise its just theft. Theft where to add insult to injury, the victim gets blamed for being promiscuous. Lets face it, weren't we all going mad? Weren't we all guilty? Arent we all liable? Right?

In short, we weren't/aren't ready as a nation for "independence". We NEED someone to tell us what to do and make the big decisions for us.

Going by the arguments offered by the Yes side in the recent referendum, we've found that benevolent democracy without choices in Frankfurt.

[RichardAnd]

Sensationalistic, perhaps but I think you hit on some valid points. I see Ireland as being part of a family of four; Ireland, England, Scotland and Whales. These four lands together form what is known as the British isles and three of them form the United Kingdom of Great Britain. Ireland, though a nominal sovereign state, never fully separated itself from the UK as even today, it is our biggest trading partner.

To me, I think Ireland would have been so much better off if "independence" had never been realised and we took our place as a part of the UK as Scotland and Whales did with England. We would still be Irish in the sense that a Scot is a Scot but we would be part of something far stronger than the little thing we are today. We could have learned from a far more mature (though certainly not problem-free) state and all the blood shed of the troubles might have been avoided.

But that didn't happen. Instead, a small group of people stirred up the sense of nationalism that saw thousands of young men find their way into an early grave. Oh certainly, we got our republic but look what happened to it in the nine decades that separate that time from the present. A deeply, deeply flawed political system and state governance were put in place, stirred from the helm by one of the most narrow minded and damaging men in Irish history; Eamon de Valera.

Though certainly not the only fool ever to hold power, that man instituted the mechanisms and means for Ireland to stagnant into the parochial and immature society that we still have not fully evolved from. Education became a system of religious indoctrination and the effort to permeate a near-dead language that has been a near total, though utterly unrecognised, failure. Censorship was the order of the day because god forbid that the proletarians question and perhaps, learn.

I don't pretend for an instant that the UK is a perfect society but had we been part of it, I feel we would have been more exposed to the world and less likely to skin into the mire. I've no doubt my opinion will be met with a less than auspicious reaction by some but this is what I believe and I would be just as willing to say it to a collection of people in a public house as I am to post it in an online forum.

OP, I believe Ireland is in a bad place but I also believe that there are, and always has been, people of merit here. What will happen in the global scene of finance and governance, only time will tell but my view is that the individual should look at the past and learn from it. If enough people improve their minds and begin to reckon the world in a rational manner then, slowly, the idea of a mature society might come about and, hopefully, a mature state might follow. If that happens, well I hope to live to see it.

[Lantus]

I'm not sure if any country that strives for its own self governance is truly ready but it has to start somewhere and learn from its own mistakes.

RichardAnd's post is interesting because if you look at Scotland and its potential to break away from the UK. This is mainly through the misguided vision of one man banging the independance drum and stirring up the scots natural pride in their own country and desire to be 'rid of the english'

given that scotland is a net taker of tax from england I'm not sure how alex will expalin why all those hospitals, schools and other institutions had to close. Hopefully the Scottish people will realise that they can enjoy their own idendity and be part of a greater union.

I mean isn't that just like Europe?

Bizzarley the english people in general are about the nicest you can find and very understanding and open to all other nations. Mos find the inbred hatred of the welsh, scots and Irish that is still common place just odd.

I think that Ireland can be run well and as a small country has great potential compared to other countries which are larger and by default harder to change.

[Manach]

A reflexive Anti-Catholicism that seeks to demonize the Church and the education system that provide some measure of support to the people and those politicians who at least did not do down the route of disasterous left/right extremism of the 30s shows a lack of historical understanding that is hardly a model for rational thinking, instead a rather virulent form of Jacobinism that has been present in one form or another for centuries.

[Scofflaw]

I find this idea that we are somehow "not ready for independence" absolutely bizarre. Yes, we had a property bubble, yes we had a bank bailout, and both of them were amongst the largest in post-war history. But while the scale of our bust was spectacular, mirroring the scale of our boom, neither makes us some kind of sui generis among the nations. Most developed nations have had property bubbles, most have had bank implosions - and a lot of them are having them right now.

The US had a sub-prime crisis, and indeed kicked off the global crisis, having also contributed heavily to its formation by its actions to stave off the 2001 recession. never mind their disastrous and pointless wars - should they too return to the arms of Mother England, admitting their evident incapacity for self-government?

I won't even get into the question of how frankly silly it is to contemplate returning to a subordinate position with our former colonial master simply because Germany has more weight at the eurozone negotiating table - a table we sit at as a small, but nevertheless sovereign nation, not an appendage of some other nation.

Frankly, while I despair of Irish politicians on a regular basis, they do at least possess the tiny amount of spine required to discount any such retrograde move as a serious possibility.

cordially,
Scofflaw

[ardmacha]

Mos find the inbred hatred of the welsh, scots and Irish that is still common place just odd.

Do you mean that they find it odd that the English hate the Welsh, Scots and Irish or that they find it odd that the latter dislike them. I suspect it is the second. I think it is informative that the English think that people should be grateful for being colonised by them.

As for nationalism leading people to an early grave, this would not have happened if the colonial power had simply stopped occupying the place instead of anyone having to fight to get them to do so.

As to the general point, the previous post makes good points. We had the biggest boom, so had the biggest bust. This is largely a timing issue, but is also partly caused by importing British style property inflation thinking while in a currency union with other places.

[woodoo]

Our problems could improve if we change our system of government. We don't need our government politicians taking calls on pot holes and medical cards. Those making important decisions are far to concerned with getting voted back in next time so they won't do what is needed.

I'm no expert on politics but something about our set-up is seriously lacking.

I think it would prob have been better if we stayed in the Union and maybe tried to gain independence at a later date. Partitioning the country was a disaster and should never have been allowed to happen. In or out but not partitioned.

[golden lane]

Originally Posted by woodoo

Our problems could improve if we change our system of government. We don't need our government politicians taking calls on pot holes and medical cards. Those making important decisions are far to concerned with getting voted back in next time so they won't do what is needed.

I'm no expert on politics but something about our set-up is seriously lacking.

I think it would prob have been better if we stayed in the Union and maybe tried to gain independence at a later date. Partitioning the country was a disaster and should never have been allowed to happen. In or out but not partitioned.

you have a good point there.....and the majority at the time would have agreed with you..imo.

hindsight can solve every problem......

it did not happen. i believe that the republic does things, just to spite the uk....that is not a rational thing and people have suffered for it.

[mikemac1]

Originally Posted by pseudofax

The Republic of Ireland is a shambles. Time to hand Ireland back to the Queen. We simply can't run it properly ourselves

The UK called in the IMF in the seventies

Do you realy think they are so superior at managing a country?

[thecommietommy]

Originally Posted by RichardAnd

Sensationalistic, perhaps but I think you hit on some valid points. I see Ireland as being part of a family of four; Ireland, England, Scotland and Whales. These four lands together form what is known as the British isles and three of them form the United Kingdom of Great Britain. Ireland, though a nominal sovereign state, never fully separated itself from the UK as even today, it is our biggest trading partner.

To me, I think Ireland would have been so much better off if "independence" had never been realised and we took our place as a part of the UK as Scotland and Whales did with England. We would still be Irish in the sense that a Scot is a Scot but we would be part of something far stronger than the little thing we are today. We could have learned from a far more mature (though certainly not problem-free) state and all the blood shed of the troubles might have been avoided.

But that didn't happen. Instead, a small group of people stirred up the sense of nationalism that saw thousands of young men find their way into an early grave. Oh certainly, we got our republic but look what happened to it in the nine decades that separate that time from the present. A deeply, deeply flawed political system and state governance were put in place, stirred from the helm by one of the most narrow minded and damaging men in Irish history; Eamon de Valera.

Though certainly not the only fool ever to hold power, that man instituted the mechanisms and means for Ireland to stagnant into the parochial and immature society that we still have not fully evolved from. Education became a system of religious indoctrination and the effort to permeate a near-dead language that has been a near total, though utterly unrecognised, failure. Censorship was the order of the day because god forbid that the proletarians question and perhaps, learn.

I don't pretend for an instant that the UK is a perfect society but had we been part of it, I feel we would have been more exposed to the world and less likely to skin into the mire. I've no doubt my opinion will be met with a less than auspicious reaction by some but this is what I believe and I would be just as willing to say it to a collection of people in a public house as I am to post it in an online forum.

OP, I believe Ireland is in a bad place but I also believe that there are, and always has been, people of merit here. What will happen in the global scene of finance and governance, only time will tell but my view is that the individual should look at the past and learn from it. If enough people improve their minds and begin to reckon the world in a rational manner then, slowly, the idea of a mature society might come about and, hopefully, a mature state might follow. If that happens, well I hope to live to see it.

Well I don't know what dream world you and others live in !!!!! Let's look at some of the history of the state and the legacy that great economic utopia Britian which had destroyed the country for centuries left behind. Remember the Irish government had inherited a very poor country in 1922. Housing conditions for many people was abysmal - amongst the worse in Europe. Many families in Dublin were crowded into one room with no running water in the tenements.

De Valera re housed over 90,000 rural families in the 1930s. For those of us who can remember those houses which were still considered to be great homes in the 1960s - and some of them still around today - they were luxury for those families who had been living in little more than cow sheds. Really. This was the reality of the legacy of British rule - poverty on a scale unimaginable today and the fact that within 10 years a major re-housing scheme was underway - developed by an Irish Government - is admirable.

And yes, let's ignore that it was thanks to copying the British (and US) banking practise of "light touch regulation" from 2002 - which is what has landed the state in the mire. And Britain is far, far from been in a great position itself, as can been seen in the link below. Jayus, you'd never think Britain was bankrupt in the mid 70's and had to call the IMF in decades before poor auld Paddy !!

Britain in grip of worst ever financial crisis, Bank of England governor fears
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...itative-easing


" the sense of nationalism that saw thousands of young men find their way into an early grave. " Vastly greater numbers of young men, around 50,000, were fooled into finding their way into an early grave in the trenchs of France, Belgium, Gillipoli etc by that imperial mass murderer and it's Irish mouthpieces under the lies for the freedom of small nations. If WW1 was about the freedom of small nations, how come the British empire was bigger at the end of it than before it ?

[thecommietommy]

Originally Posted by RichardAnd

Sensationalistic, perhaps but I think you hit on some valid points. I see Ireland as being part of a family of four; Ireland, England, Scotland and Whales. These four lands together form what is known as the British isles and three of them form the United Kingdom of Great Britain. Ireland, though a nominal sovereign state, never fully separated itself from the UK as even today, it is our biggest trading partner.

To me, I think Ireland would have been so much better off if "independence" had never been realised and we took our place as a part of the UK as Scotland and Whales did with England. We would still be Irish in the sense that a Scot is a Scot but we would be part of something far stronger than the little thing we are today. We could have learned from a far more mature (though certainly not problem-free) state and all the blood shed of the troubles might have been avoided.

But that didn't happen. Instead, a small group of people stirred up the sense of nationalism that saw thousands of young men find their way into an early grave. Oh certainly, we got our republic but look what happened to it in the nine decades that separate that time from the present. A deeply, deeply flawed political system and state governance were put in place, stirred from the helm by one of the most narrow minded and damaging men in Irish history; Eamon de Valera.

Though certainly not the only fool ever to hold power, that man instituted the mechanisms and means for Ireland to stagnant into the parochial and immature society that we still have not fully evolved from. Education became a system of religious indoctrination and the effort to permeate a near-dead language that has been a near total, though utterly unrecognised, failure. Censorship was the order of the day because god forbid that the proletarians question and perhaps, learn.

I don't pretend for an instant that the UK is a perfect society but had we been part of it, I feel we would have been more exposed to the world and less likely to skin into the mire. I've no doubt my opinion will be met with a less than auspicious reaction by some but this is what I believe and I would be just as willing to say it to a collection of people in a public house as I am to post it in an online forum.

OP, I believe Ireland is in a bad place but I also believe that there are, and always has been, people of merit here. What will happen in the global scene of finance and governance, only time will tell but my view is that the individual should look at the past and learn from it. If enough people improve their minds and begin to reckon the world in a rational manner then, slowly, the idea of a mature society might come about and, hopefully, a mature state might follow. If that happens, well I hope to live to see it.

Well if Britain is such a wonderfully run country, how come on the UN Development Index which measures the quality of life from country to country, Ireland is 7th and that utopia the UK is 28th ?

http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/

[golden lane]

[QUOTE=thecommietommy;79606955]Well if Britain is such a wonderfully run country, how come on the UN Development Index which measures the quality of life from country to country, Ireland is 7th and that utopia the UK is 28th ?

http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/[/QUOTE]

are you aware......that the irish are going to the uk in droves......to get jobs.......stop reading rubbisn, and look at the facts......

[thecommietommy]

Originally Posted by golden lane

are you aware......that the irish are going to the uk in droves......to get jobs.......stop reading rubbisn, and look at the facts......

So are you telling me that the UN Development Index is lying ? And as for emigration, here's some food for thought -

Emigration soars as Britons desert the UK
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...rt-the-UK.html