[liveya]

(Note: This is not about debating his existence, it's about the hypothetical situation where somehow (even though its impossible in the way they demand it) evidence is found and the consequences there after..)

And seeking evidence outside God (evidence itself) is pointless, and impossible.

I don't know what sort of evidence atheists are looking for, has anyone ever asked them? Has anyone ever asked an athiest what would be an example of evidence that would suffice? Has anyone ever thought about the consequences of finding evidence without the will to actually know him and love him?

It seems to me that finding 'evidence' without having seeked him willingly would break the system, a meltdown, life would be impossible. Could you imagine if you absolutely knew God existed, but you refused him? It would be like someone standing their watching you all day everyday, intruding on your life, it would be awful. Even for beleivers it would be intrusive and uncomfortable, so it is logical that we cannot know 100%, unless we totally willingly open ourselves to him, as the saints did, and do.

The system is perfect the way it is, God is present for those who seek him, but not intruding on our lives, he's at the 'perfect distance', so to speak. Knowing hell exists for example would create chaos and despair, people would flock to churches at least every Sunday, or even everyday, not out of freely choosing to love him, but out of fear, thus the failure of any real love.

On a final note, I know there are some athiests who convert and take that leap of faith, but there are some who just refuse to bow, and even think seriously about faith, and how could they do that, knowing he exists, so denial is the only option for those who refuse him. The will to be ones own God would be exposed if they didn't deny him. Nobody could refuse to bow and love God and simultaneously admit his existence, they would be exposed as arrogant God wannabe's.

Asking for evidence without deeply wanting to know God and submit to him (who is worthy of worhsip) is pointless. It would only serve to trap the person in a world of fear and forceful fake love, making life dreadful, ironically, a living hell.

What do you think?

[dvae]

for many atheists, i don't think theres much you could do to promote the existence of God.
after all Jesus himself came to the earth to atone for the sins of man, and to preach the word of God. after preforming many miracles there were still many who failed to believe.

[liveya]

Originally Posted by dvae

for many atheists, i don't think theres much you could do to promote the existence of God.
after all Jesus himself came to the earth to atone for the sins of man, and to preach the word of God. after preforming many miracles there were still many who failed to believe.

Trust me, I have no interest in conversion with those who in their heart of hearts, refuse to bow. It's easy enough to see who is seeking God, and who refuses out of wanting to be their own God.

My point, was to show that getting the evidence they ask for would be a disaster. Especially for those who refuse him. They ask for it, but really they don't want it. It wouldn't work.

The inability to prove or disprove him, only serves to reveal his splendor and perfection in all things. He respects our freedom and loves each one of us so much, even those who refuse him, he's made it impossible for anyone to impose him on others. A good God!

[Sarky]

Well if anyone could perform a miracle on live tv with plenty of qualified experts to ensure it wasn't faked, that'd be a start. Or God could show up in person like he did in the old days and sort out once and for all which of the however-many-there-are-now Christian denominations has it right. The stars rearranging themselves into a message in the night sky. He could just drop the requisite knowledge into everyone's brain at the same time, too. Anything verifiable. Anything at all beyond a feeling someone has. Anything that is consistently different from sheer random chance.

It's hardly asking much of an entity that allegedly managed to create a universe, is it?

[liveya]

Originally Posted by Sarky

Well if anyone could perform a miracle on live tv with plenty of qualified experts to ensure it wasn't faked, that'd be a start. Or God could show up in person like he did in the old days and sort out once and for all which of the however-many-there-are-now Christian denominations has it right. The stars rearranging themselves into a message in the night sky. He could just drop the requisite knowledge into everyone's brain at the same time, too. Anything verifiable. Anything at all beyond a feeling someone has. Anything that is consistently different from sheer random chance.

It's hardly asking much of an entity that allegedly managed to create a universe, is it?

None of the things you asked for would be proof, since to experience them as a person, you'd have to agree they are still scientific and not proof of God at all, just that something happened that you cannot explain it. It's still science, still not meta.

Secondly, I explained that Gods respect for our freedom, allows for doubt. Seek and you'll find, implying if you don't seek you won't find. A loving God wouldn't impose on anyone, so it makes sense that having given us enough light, it's up to us to accept and respond to this proposition, it has to be made in faith to prove one cares enough to take that leap.

A Perfect system, designed for freely chosen love.

[Sarky]

How would a verifiable miracle or the stars realigning themselves to spell out a message from god not be evidence to suggest god exists? Right now we have god curing cancer at a rate that's actually below the normal spontaneous remission rate, or both sides of a team praying to god for victory but in the end, one of them still loses. And that book that's true because of the bits in the book that say it's true. There is nothing compelling.

And who'd be imposing? He'd settle the question once and for all, we'd still have the choice whether we want to bother with all that bowing and scraping business or not. If he's providing no evidence whatsoever of his existence, well, it's his own damn fault so much of the world doesn't believe in him.

[liveya]

Originally Posted by Sarky

How would a verifiable miracle or the stars realigning themselves to spell out a message from god not be evidence to suggest god exists? Right now we have god curing cancer at a rate that's actually below the normal spontaneous remission rate, or both sides of a team praying to god for victory but in the end, one of them still loses. And that book that's true because of the bits in the book that say it's true. There is nothing compelling.

And who'd be imposing? He'd settle the question once and for all, we'd still have the choice whether we want to bother with all that bowing and scraping business or not. If he's providing no evidence whatsoever of his existence, well, it's his own damn fault so much of the world doesn't believe in him.

You don't seem to understand my point. One could not live their life in peace, if they refused to bow and knew he existed; In knowing he exists they'd know there is an absolute truth, and would be exposed to not admitting the truth and would be seen to be clearly ignoring it, who would be irrational then?

I'm marvelling at the perfect way the universe is made, ignoring the fall for the moment, since that's our fault. The only people who enjoy eternal life are those who admitted the truth, those who took that leap of faith, because they wanted to know, love and enjoy God, not those who refused and wanted to be their own Gods.

True love for God cannot be borne out of you having no choice to refuse him, simply because you knew he exists, the imposition against your will would be a tragedy.

Note the importance of the phrase freely choose to love..

[totus tuus]

This photo was allegedly taken by a young girl at Medjugorje in the late 1990s.

[Sarky]

Oh, I missed the bit where you were redefining evidence to mean "Whatever points to the existence of god". Sorry about that. Carry on with... Whatever this thread is actually about then.

Regarding the picture, give me half an hour with Photoshop and I'll show you one just as convincing that has "SATAN" written near the top. It's not terribly compelling evidence. Anyway, this was never a thread about actual evidence I guess, so I think we're done here.

[liveya]

Originally Posted by totus tuus

This photo was allegedly taken by a young girl at Medjugorje in the late 1990s.

But that's not proof, that's an allignment of the clouds in a way that has the same shape as the word Christ, still room for doubt. It will always be a matter of faith, thank God - to prevent heaven from being filled with people who refused God.

[liveya]

Originally Posted by Sarky

Oh, I missed the bit where you were redefining evidence to mean "Whatever points to the existence of god". Sorry about that. Carry on with... Whatever this thread is actually about then.

Regarding the picture, give me half an hour with Photoshop and I'll show you one just as convincing that has "SATAN" written near the top. It's not terribly compelling evidence. Anyway, this was never a thread about actual evidence I guess, so I think we're done here.

In all honesty Sarky, isn't it fair that only those who want to know God get to enjoy him for eternity? As opposed to those who didn't want to know him, but had to because they had no choice otherwise? A loving God would not impose himself, it's very simple. It's perfect..

Seek and you'll find..But you have to want to find him, to seek him..

[Zillah]

None of what you are saying really makes sense.

For example, knowing about Hell isn't what turns Hell into horrendous blackmail...creating Hell in the first place is what makes it horrendous blackmail. If God really wanted to respect my freewill he'd give me an option that didn't involve either worshipping him or suffering forever. Punishing someone for something they genuinely did not believe to be the truth is either insane or evil. Couldn't God just allow me to fly around the universe exploring stuff in an immortal spiritual body instead of joining you guys in heaven, or being condemned to Hell? Why would he make Hell at all?

Knowing about an unfair system is not what makes the system unfair - a system being unfair is what makes it unfair. God has no need to force me to choose between him and eternal torture.

EDIT:

Clearly the "Christ" image is an inferior copy. Thor has better hand writing and a higher image resolution.

[liveya]

Originally Posted by Zillah

None of what you are saying really makes sense.

For example, knowing about Hell isn't what turns Hell into horrendous blackmail...creating Hell in the first place is what makes it horrendous blackmail. If God really wanted to respect my freewill he'd give me an option that didn't involve either worshipping him or suffering forever. Punishing someone for something they genuinely did not believe to be the truth is either insane or evil. Couldn't God just allow me to fly around the universe exploring stuff in an immortal spiritual body instead of joining you guys in heaven, or being condemned to Hell? Why would he make Hell at all?

Knowing about an unfair system is not what makes the system unfair - a system being unfair is what makes it unfair. God has no need to force me to choose between him and eternal torture.

Hell was created (I'm not sure by God, some have said its by Satan himself) not for human beings, but the Devil and his angels. But some peeople refuse God and choose sin, commiting the unforgivable sin - rejecting the holy spirit all one's life, and therefore deserve to be punished. Hells eternal nature is not purposeful, it's a consequence of the sin that must be punished or else God wouldn't be just. An all loving God must punish sin, or else he is unjust. The punishment continues forever because the sin continues forever, locked from the inside.

So you are asking for God to let a person who refuses him, freely: therefore love, goodness, righteousness and justice to live happily ever after for eternity, floating around enjoying Gods work? although to reject him would make you the worst creature ever created, by your choice? Do you really think a person, who has freely rejected such a good God deserves to go unpunished? Terrible..

No, if you refused the gospel, truth, love then you don't deserve to live happily ever after, nobody of who made such selfish choices does. Complaining about Gods perfect justice, and then wanting him to be unjust for you is just silly.

One cannot be forced to love God, that's my point. Even upon absolutely knowing his existence, you'd only draw to him out of fear not out of love. If one does really want to know and love God, they would take that leap of faith because for them it's worth taking. They wouldn't hide behind bad theology and elaborate arguments as an excuse for not responding to him.

[shanered]

Just look at how different all the different Christian groups portray God. each one differently saying this and saying that, do you not see a trend? Do you not see your history and see where many of the aspects of God came from.
There may be a spiritual element to the world that we live in, but to be certain that your sect knows exactly what going on and all the rest are wrong is a little ignorant of history and a little vain in my eyes.
Personally I believe in something spiritually, I do believe in energy and force beyond what modern science can explain, but i think its the same thing with all religions and past religions involving countless gods and godesses, what makes your god different, because he is one?
Thats just like worshiping everything and if you did that hopefully you feel great about everything and I can understand why people would strive for that.
But the whole evidence thing, very subjective in my eyes.
Science is all things measurable.
How could you provide evidence for everything and anything, I believe what many people believe God to be is like a second voice or a made up element of their concience kinda like third person in your mind if that makes any sense, its like creating a parent for your concience that you can never upset and will always love you.
Its very comforting I do believe, but to even ask for evidence is crazy as God is whatever you want and everything.
Not very scientific, where each person has there own idea and of course it would be impossible to analysis everybodies notion of what god is, and even disprove that or even prove that for that matter.
the fact that it works so well is that its as subjective as you like.
Rant over...

[Gumbi]

What do you mean by "the universe is perfect?

Edit: Btw, aren't miracles, by definition, impossible?