[Long Legged Mack Daddy]

I will be returning to some kind of regular MA training after a "false start" 18 months or so ago. Aside from this "false start" lasting no more than 3 months, I've no MA experience. Naturally, I've been doing some research online to try to figure out which MA I should do. Although my primary concerns are to do with fitness, discipline and concentration, I do want to train in something which might possibly help to save my ass should I be unfortunate enough to need it.

This consideration has led me to the old "Is ****** effective for self defense?" google search. I tried out a kenpo club the other day, but according to "them that know" in cyberspace kenpo is "useless". I trained for a while with a club in Dublin, and the two main men there are kenpo men and neither of them strike me as the type of blokes who would train in something useless. Both of them are also doormen and I would'nt fancy the chances of most who would chance messing with them. My daughter is doing Shotokan and I've considered joining her but apparently all karate is "useless". Aikido, Wing Tsun and Shaolin are also "useless". I did a litttle bit of escrima but there is no point in continuing with that because that's "useless" to. Oh TKD! That's "useless" to. Capoeira is just acrobatics and we wont even get in to ninjitsu!

It seems that if "them that know" in cyberspace are to be believed. Only krav Maga, Muay Thai, BJJ, Western Boxing and maybe Silat and Sambo are "usefull". It seems strange that all of these other MA's, many of which have been around a long time, would be useless. Ok, from my limited knowlege I can see how a practitioner of any of the "useless" arts might not stand a chance if they happened to get in a fight with a Muay thai practitioner.But given that this is unlikely, surely these MA's are not useless.

So here's the question. All else being equal, who would you give more of a chance if attacked on the street by an attacker with no MA training:
someone with training in one of the "useless" MA's or someone with no MA training at all?

[cowzerp]

Not as usefull i'd say, not useless.

[slammer187]

It seems like to me that the only effective martial arts for self defense are Judo and Boxing...interestingly enough training in these martial arts aren't backed by money as much as they are with other martial arts, also these martial arts are mainly seen as sport and not promoted as self defense unlike others

Then again I'm no self defense expert

[cowzerp]

Originally Posted by Long Legged Mack Daddy

So here's the question. All else being equal, who would you give more of a chance if attacked on the street by an attacker with no MA training:
someone with training in one of the "useless" MA's or someone with no MA training at all?

Really depends, I know black belts in Kenpo, Kickboxing and in other arts that quite simple can't fight and would not be confident too either, I also know some untrained individuals who are tough as hell, I genuinely feel some martial arts attract softer people anyway, It goes without saying sports like Boxing, Muay Thai, MMA will attract tougher people as the softer people would be happier doing forms, katas etc

That's not saying a bad form of martial arts can not have tough people in it but it is less likely in my opinion and in my experience..

[Makikomi]

Originally Posted by Long Legged Mack Daddy

So here's the question. All else being equal, who would you give more of a chance if attacked on the street by an attacker with no MA training:
someone with training in one of the "useless" MA's or someone with no MA training at all?

I'd give it to the tough, mean, nasty bastard who wants to f*ck you up in the fight!.

Disregarding what you might call "useless", some people are just tough regardless what they train in.. Some of the best bouncer's I've worked with in over twenty years have trained in the styles you listed as "useless".

Two lads I work with atm are training in Ninjitsu over 30 years and if they trained Capoaira or Ballet dancing they'd still be tough, mean bastards.

Toughness, the ability to endure punishment, stamina and fight instinct will win out regardless (in my opinion).

[longhalloween]

I did some Tae kwon do a few years back and it was all competition training. Their aim was to train me to score points against a similarly trained opponent, not defend myself against an attacker.

So maybe it's not the martial art that's useless, just the type of training you receive.

[maguffin]

Originally Posted by longhalloween

I did some Tae kwon do a few years back and it was all competition training. Their aim was to train me to score points against a similarly trained opponent, not defend myself against an attacker.

So maybe it's not the martial art that's useless, just the type of training you receive.

I would go along with that....I know that when I started training TKD in the 70s we trained to fight...no footpads, no gloves/mits, no body armour...when we got hit hard we had to learn how to 'get on with it' and continue fighting. You became conditioned to getting hit and absorbing the pain in oreder for you to overcome your opponent.
So, the type of training and the focus of that training determines how 'useful' it will be.

[smacl]

Originally Posted by Long Legged Mack Daddy

So here's the question. All else being equal, who would you give more of a chance if attacked on the street by an attacker with no MA training:
someone with training in one of the "useless" MA's or someone with no MA training at all?

Wrong question. If should read someone with training in one of the "useless" MA's or the same person with no MA training at all? Having trained in two of the so called useless martial arts (tai chi chuan and wado ryu karate), I know well that I'm considerably more capable at fighting than I would have been without MA training. FWIW, I'd consider practical tai chi chuan, replete with san shou and tui shou as the sparring formats, as one of the more robust martial arts out there, even though it probably ranks just above darts in terms of interweb machismo.

You also get a massive amount of variation in terms of coach, club and members. Where I think Boxing and Judo score, is that they are much more consistent in this regard, and test themselves all the time.

[EnjoyChoke]

Originally Posted by maguffin

So, the type of training and the focus of that training determines how 'useful' it will be.

Sums it up really.

[CageWager]

Originally Posted by Makikomi

Toughness, the ability to endure punishment, stamina and fight instinct will win out regardless (in my opinion).

I think you've hit the nail on the head there, I train BJJ and have never done any striking at all. The one and (hopefully only) time I've ever been confronted on the street I hit the guy a right hook that put him on the ground and ended the confrontation. It all happened so quickly that my fight or flight instinct kicked in and before I knew it I had hit him.

It's also quite possible that if I had been attacked from behind and dragged to the ground my BJJ skills could have come in very handy, but that's the thing about street attacks, there are just way to many unknowns to train for.

First and foremost, MA's should be about fun, discipline and fitness. Don't get too caught up in the never ending internet style vs style for the street debates, just try a bunch of them out and go with the one you enjoyed the most.

[Stephen_King]

Originally Posted by Long Legged Mack Daddy

So here's the question. All else being equal, who would you give more of a chance if attacked on the street by an attacker with no MA training:
someone with training in one of the "useless" MA's or someone with no MA training at all?

Depends how much experience your foe has in attacking random people on the street. If it’s something he does often, or as a profession you'll likely have issues, even though he's not trained in an MA so to speak. He'll just have no doubt picked up some dastardly tricks from his years of nefarious activities that would easily be a match for any TMA tomfoolery, and experience will win out-i.e., the first thing you'll know about it is you'll wake up on the ground, he'll likely have attacked you from behind.

Now maybe if it’s a full moon out or your assailants had one too many ale shandys in the park on a warm evening and straight up challenges you to a fair street fight, then any training in a MA would help, providing your training taught you a good understanding of footwork, counterstriking and grappling.

If you train in a s*itty style but train against resisting opponents who beat you up every week, you'll likely have enough muscle memory, fitness and toughness to win the day. In short, you'll be used to getting beat up a little, the experience will not be something new to you.

If not, and you train completely with compliant partners, with no sparring or proper resistance, you may be in for a surprise when you first try applying that deadly twisting fingerhold you learned that absolutely knobbled your training partners in class. If you picked up bad footwork or daft techniques they may land you in trouble -it depends on how natural a fighter your opponent is, and how aggressive his intentions are.

That said, any art can have its day, in relatively hilarious fashion-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6Vy6-vvoBY

[Long Legged Mack Daddy]

Originally Posted by smacl

Wrong question. If should read someone with training in one of the "useless" MA's or the same person with no MA training at all?

You are nit picking here. I did say "all else being equal" which pretty much says the same thing.

FWIW, I'd consider practical tai chi chuan, replete with san shou and tui shou as the sparring formats, as one of the more robust martial arts out there, even though it probably ranks just above darts in terms of interweb machismo.

Is this the same style as wudang tai chi. Have you trained with Niall keane?

[Long Legged Mack Daddy]

Originally Posted by Stephen_King

Now maybe if it’s a full moon out or your assailants had one too many ale shandys in the park on a warm evening and straight up challenges you to a fair street fight, then any training in a MA would help, providing your training taught you a good understanding of footwork, counterstriking and grappling.

Yeah, from the little bit of MA training I've done I can tell that footwork is probably the most important and most overlooked aspect. I also found, that for me anyway, it was the least instinctive and the most difficult to get right.

So which MA's do you guys reckon have the better footork?

[Peetrik]

Originally Posted by Stephen_King

That said, any art can have its day, in relatively hilarious fashion-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6Vy6-vvoBY

HAHAahaha brilliant!

[cowzerp]

Originally Posted by Long Legged Mack Daddy

So which MA's do you guys reckon have the better footork?

Boxing, then TKD then Judo i'd say