[Logical Fallacy]

Article on the Guardian site about a survey of doctors, with the highlight being that 54% of them felt that smokers and obese people should be denied certain treatments until they improve their health situation.

The main concern seemed to be that the effectiveness of certain procedures would be affected by their lifestyle.

Having thought about it I can't really think of anything wrong with the concept, once a condition is not life threatening or too serious then a patient should be required to show an improvement and acceptance of responsibility for their own well being.

What say you AH?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/20...-smokers-obese

A majority of doctors support measures to deny treatment to smokers and the obese, according to a survey that has sparked a row over the NHS's growing use of "lifestyle rationing".
Some 54% of doctors who took part said the NHS should have the right to withhold non-emergency treatment from patients who do not lose weight or stop smoking. Some medics believe unhealthy behaviour can make procedures less likely to work, and that the service is not obliged to devote scarce resources to them.
However, senior doctors and patient groups have voiced alarm at what they call "blackmailing" of the sick, and denial of their human rights.

[Pottler]

Yeah right, us smokers contribute more in taxes than the rest of ye. I demand my right to be cut open and have stuff replaced. I've paid €9.10 a packet for long enough to have earned it.

[SEPT 23 1989]

The tax on the cigarettes and fatty foods pay their wages

they can go fcuk themselves

[Mr. Incognito]

Okay this as AH so we expect trolling but seriously.............

This one is fat and this one smokes. No treatment for them.

What's next- oh yeah, poor people.

Lets all go watch movies sponsored by drink and fast food companies, lets go watch formula one promoted by cig companies.

Health care should never be refused to anyone. Ever.

And those Doctors took a hippocratic oath so that survey meanings nothing.

What sort of society do you want to create here?

Jebus, I though health care was the most basic level of human decency.

[Pottler]

Any hope they might deny service to gingers? Never trusted em. Give me a fat smoker anyday.

[Hande hoche!]

Seems a very slippery slope.

[arse..biscuits]

Yes. People who are healthy.

[bluewolf]

At first I was a bit eh no wtf - give them care
but then I thought, what about stuff like kidney or liver ops/transplants to alcoholics who won't try quit?
So there is a line somewhere

then from the article

One doctor said that denying in-vitro fertilisation to childless women who smoked was justified because it was only half as successful for them.

Another said the NHS was right to expect an obese patient or alcoholic to change their behaviour before they underwent liver transplant surgery.

But obesity could merit such bans, Gerada said. "Obesity is a different matter. Operating on a very fat person is more dangerous. Anaesthetically it's harder, the surgery is harder and the rehabilitation takes longer. So it's medically legitimate to withhold treatment from some very overweight people. But it should not be done for social reasons," she said.

It doesn't sound off the wall to me

[Logical Fallacy]

Originally Posted by Mr. Incognito

Okay this as AH so we expect trolling but seriously.............

This one is fat and this one smokes. No treatment for them.

What's next- oh yeah, poor people.

Lets all go watch movies sponsored by drink and fast food companies, lets go watch formula one promoted by cig companies.

Health care should never be refused to anyone. Ever.

And those Doctors took a hypocratic oath so that survey meanings nothing.

What sort of society do you want to create here?

Jebus, I though health care was the most basic level of human decency.

I think the reality of health care is vastly different, shrinking budgets, wasted money and an increase in demand is starting to take a toll. I know a few doctors, nurses and medical students and there seems to be a constant worry about the rising demands on the health care system.

I don't think it's a lot to ask that people take a little better care of themselves and if something can be done to improve a person health without needing medical intervention then there is nothing wrong with pushing that option.

I am also unsure how the survey means nothing...it's obviously a reflection on how certain doctors feel so I think it's worth discussing.

Finally, how the hell is my post "trolling"?

Is simply wishing to discuss a contentious issue in AH enough for something to be branded trolling now?

[monkeypants]

Fat people have rights?

[cartell_best]

Originally Posted by Pottler

Yeah right, us smokers contribute more in taxes than the rest of ye. I demand my right to be cut open and have stuff replaced. I've paid €9.10 a packet for long enough to have earned it.

Took the words right out of my mouth! fair play to ya!

[southsiderosie]

I think that doctors should be the ones making the call as to whether or not patients should receive treatment based on their individual assessment of that patient - not some blanket ban, or some bureaucratic decree. The examples in the article makes a pretty clear statistical case for withholding some kinds of medical treatments due to obesity or a smoking habit, and that makes sense.

[Pottler]

Originally Posted by southsiderosie

I think that doctors should be the ones making the call as to whether or not patients should receive treatment based on their individual assessment of that patient - not some blanket ban, or some bureaucratic decree. The examples in the article makes a pretty clear statistical case for withholding some kinds of medical treatments due to obesity or a smoking habit, and that makes sense.

since when did we start taking Doctors seriously? Every feckin Doctor I know smokes like a chimney anyway. Most of the Nurses I know do too. If they find it hard to operate on fat people, just get them bigger knives, longer handles and step ladders. Miners lights might be handy as well. We can't start letting Doctors make life and death decisions.

[southsiderosie]

Originally Posted by Mr. Incognito

Okay this as AH so we expect trolling but seriously.............

This one is fat and this one smokes. No treatment for them.

What's next- oh yeah, poor people.

Lets all go watch movies sponsored by drink and fast food companies, lets go watch formula one promoted by cig companies.

Health care should never be refused to anyone. Ever.

And those Doctors took a hypocratic oath so that survey meanings nothing.

What sort of society do you want to create here?

Jebus, I though health care was the most basic level of human decency.

Most organ transplants have long waiting lists. Why should a doctor recommend someone for a liver transplant if they don't have their drinking under control - especially when there are other patients who are willing to make the lifestyle changes necessary in order to increase the likelihood of a successful transplant?

People need to take some responsibility for their health, and I would imagine that it would be very frustrating for doctors to see patients who are unwilling to make long-term lifestyle changes instead of having expensive, invasive medical procedures that are often just a short-term solution anyway (gastric bypass and stomach-banding being a prime example).

[Dubhlinner]

But obesity could merit such bans, Gerada said. "Obesity is a different matter. Operating on a very fat person is more dangerous. Anaesthetically it's harder, the surgery is harder and the rehabilitation takes longer. So it's medically legitimate to withhold treatment from some very overweight people. But it should not be done for social reasons," she said.

For safety reasons, Dr.Trollsberg requires that you get yourself down to a healthy BMI before we start your gastric band surgery operation. UMAD fatty?