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17-11-2002, 16:38   #76
Dustaz
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Quote:
Originally posted by ObeyGiant

This is tackled in the "Deleted Scenes" section of the DVD. They were actually two sentences (two scenes), but cut to form one, for the sake of brevity.
Its still a ****e cut, and one that could have been made elsewhere for time purposes.


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Running across six episodes, I reckon Star Wars is blurring the line between the two.
The godfather, arguably the greatest trilogy made, has no such enourmous hanging plotlines. If you look at LOTR, which has a lot more to cover than SW, TFOTR manages to wrap up everything you need to know to watch that one film. AOTC crucially doesnt.

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Most people know this already. I guess he's keeping it quiet for those who don't, because it's an important turning-point in the story, and will help tie up a lot of loose ends between Episodes II and III.
The fact that its mentioned so much and not cleared up is a really big problem with the film. Its a gaping plot hole that causes confusion not intrigue. I dont think its a bad idea to have the plotline, but with the simple addition of a couple of "yes, i thought he was dead too, i wonder what happened there...eh?" type of lines it could be dealt with a lot better. A little bit of development of that plotline would have helped too, since then we would KNOW it would be cleared up. As it stands now its a loose end.

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From the imdb:
"Mace Windu: You refer to the prophecy of The One, who will bring balance to the Force. You believe it's this boy?"
What is the prophecy of the one? Who made it? When? Why does the Force need balance? Why ISNT it in balance? When did it lose balance, was it always this way? How will the boy change it? This stuff is really Film 101

Quote:
Again, from the imdb:
"Anakin: I don't like sand. It's coarse and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere. Not like here. Here everything is soft and smooth."
And this is somehow better?
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17-11-2002, 19:27   #77
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dustaz
Its still a ****e cut, and one that could have been made elsewhere for time purposes.
This is an extremely subjective point. The long scene told us a lot about the constitution of Naboo, the length of term of a queen etc., and was ultimately unnecessary towards understanding the rest of the film. I personally didn't mind the cut, and have seen plenty of examples, across a lot of other films where sentences are begun in one location, and finished in another, so this didn't bother me in the least.

Quote:
Originally posted by Dustaz
The godfather, arguably the greatest trilogy made, has no such enourmous hanging plotlines. If you look at LOTR, which has a lot more to cover than SW, TFOTR manages to wrap up everything you need to know to watch that one film. AOTC crucially doesnt.
Something that is important to bear in mind when thinking about the Star Wars movies, especially when comparing them to the Godfather trilogy, is that while the three Godfather films are, fundamentally, three seperate, standalone films within the same universe, while the Star Wars movies are SIX films, closely related to each other. This is what I mean about Star Wars blurring the lines between "feature films" and "episodes" of a TV series.

Even still - are you sure you're not just railing against Attack of the Clones because it's new? Look at the ending to Empire Strikes Back, where everything is left wide open - one could easily argue that these are 'enourmous [sic] hanging plotlines', but placed in-context, especially withe Return of the Jedi, everything makes sense.

Quote:
Originally posted by Dustaz
The fact that its mentioned so much and not cleared up is a really big problem with the film. Its a gaping plot hole that causes confusion not intrigue.

I dont think its a bad idea to have the plotline, but with the simple addition of a couple of "yes, i thought he was dead too, i wonder what happened there...eh?" type of lines it could be dealt with a lot better. A little bit of development of that plotline would have helped too, since then we would KNOW it would be cleared up. As it stands now its a loose end.



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Originally posted by Dustaz
What is the prophecy of the one?
Speaking as someone with at least a modicum of intelligence, and the ability to extrapolate facts - it says that the force is out of balance.. one person will come along, and restore balance.

Quote:
Originally posted by Dustaz
Who made it? When?
Both of these are completely unimportant. If they'd taken the time in the film to explain either of these facts, it would have been completely pointless, and distracted people from whatever goal the filmmakers were trying to reach by the end of the film. Plus, it would have taken time away from the kick-ass battle sequences.

Quote:
Originally posted by Dustaz
Why does the Force need balance? Why ISNT it in balance? When did it lose balance, was it always this way? How will the boy change it?
This is slightly explained in the film - "The Dark Side has clouded our vision", "We must inform the senate that we can no longer use the force" etc. As for how he will change it - as much as I am loathe to say this, wait for episode III. These are all very big things, and could have been explained in Episode II, but at the expense of any sense of drama in Episode III. We would be walking into a 15 minute-long film, to see his final transformation.

Would you be saying the same things about Empire Strikes Back, if that had just come out? "Who was that bounty hunter guy? What happens to Han? Where are they meeting? Who was that 'emperor' guy? These questions need to be answered.. this stuff is really Film 101".

Quote:
Originally posted by Dustaz
This stuff is really Film 101
If this is your understanding of movies, let's hope you never, ever make an action film. Especially not one that spans multiple sequels.

Quote:
Originally posted by Dustaz
And this is somehow better?
It's certainly a lot better than "not like you, you're smooth", yes. When I first saw the film, I thought that's what he said, too. And I cringed. I cringed in a more violent way than I thought it was possible. It was only from watching the DVD that I realised it was impossible to hear what he was actually saying, because he mumbled his way through the entire film.
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17-11-2002, 20:13   #78
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...and having said all that, it's still crap.

Then again, I didn't think much of the original trilogy so maybe I'm biased.
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18-11-2002, 09:38   #79
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dustaz
The godfather, arguably the greatest trilogy made, has no such enourmous hanging plotlines. If you look at LOTR, which has a lot more to cover than SW, TFOTR manages to wrap up everything you need to know to watch that one film. AOTC crucially doesnt.
As has been already expressed, the Godfather is a trilogy of three self-contained films. The original 'A New Hope' episode of the SW saga could well be described as self contained, but the others are very much part of (two) distinct story-arcs.

Please define 'to wrap up'? Last time I checked, in a story-arc composed of such episodes, you only 'wrap up' everything in the last episode.
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18-11-2002, 14:51   #80
Dustaz
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Quote:
Originally posted by ObeyGiant
This is an extremely subjective point. The long scene told us a lot about the constitution of Naboo, the length of term of a queen etc., and was ultimately unnecessary towards understanding the rest of the film. I personally didn't mind the cut, and have seen plenty of examples, across a lot of other films where sentences are begun in one location, and finished in another, so this didn't bother me in the least.
If the truth be told, it didnt bother me either. I just thought they could have made one massive cut and spared us the American Way Of Life lecture.

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Something that is important to bear in mind when thinking about the Star Wars movies, especially when comparing them to the Godfather trilogy, is that while the three Godfather films are, fundamentally, three seperate, standalone films within the same universe, while the Star Wars movies are SIX films, closely related to each other. This is what I mean about Star Wars blurring the lines between "feature films" and "episodes" of a TV series.
Yes, I take the point that the Godfather films are not a good example. The Lord of the Rings are a good example though, see my original comments.

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Even still - are you sure you're not just railing against Attack of the Clones because it's new? Look at the ending to Empire Strikes Back, where everything is left wide open - one could easily argue that these are 'enourmous [sic] hanging plotlines', but placed in-context, especially withe Return of the Jedi, everything makes sense.
No, the ongoing storyline is left open. Individual plotlines are clearly defined and parked.


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Speaking as someone with at least a modicum of intelligence, and the ability to extrapolate facts - it says that the force is out of balance.. one person will come along, and restore balance.
Thanks, I'd worked that one out. Im glad that people with a modicum of intellegence are there to help out though.

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Both of these are completely unimportant. If they'd taken the time in the film to explain either of these facts, it would have been completely pointless, and distracted people from whatever goal the filmmakers were trying to reach by the end of the film. Plus, it would have taken time away from the kick-ass battle sequences.
Id disagree entirely. We could be told who made it and when in one simple line of dialogue. It wouldnt be pointless because it would add some history to a shrinking universe, one of my problems with this current trilogy. If you took out everything in the film that wasnt entirely important, wed be running at your 15 minutes (probably less)


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This is slightly explained in the film - "The Dark Side has clouded our vision", "We must inform the senate that we can no longer use the force" etc. As for how he will change it - as much as I am loathe to say this, wait for episode III. These are all very big things, and could have been explained in Episode II, but at the expense of any sense of drama in Episode III. We would be walking into a 15 minute-long film, to see his final transformation.
In explaining this so badly, Lucas created yet more confusion. "We must inform the senate that we can no longer use the force" ... really? Looked to me like the jedi could use the force pretty well. Sorry, but ideally I'd like some sort of example. Dont get me wrong, this in itself is not a big problem, but coupled it with all the other small problems and it begins to mount up.

Quote:
Would you be saying the same things about Empire Strikes Back, if that had just come out? "Who was that bounty hunter guy? What happens to Han? Where are they meeting? Who was that 'emperor' guy? These questions need to be answered.. this stuff is really Film 101".
No I wouldnt. The bounty hunter guy is exactly that. A bounty hunter who is not flagged significantly as an important character. The Emperor is 'The Bad Guy' and is nicely veiled in secrecy, I dont remember any unanswered questions (posed by the directory, not the audience) regarding him. While obviously Hans ultimate fate is an ongoing plotline, he is 'parked' neatly. We know where he is, who has him and what has happened to him.


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It's certainly a lot better than "not like you, you're smooth", yes. When I first saw the film, I thought that's what he said, too. And I cringed. I cringed in a more violent way than I thought it was possible. It was only from watching the DVD that I realised it was impossible to hear what he was actually saying, because he mumbled his way through the entire film.
It doesnt matter if one is better than the other. The point is that they are both appallingly badly written and are another example of why Lucas should not direct these films.


Oh, a couple of things. If your going to point out my mispelt words, try not to mispell a word in the next sentance. Its not becoming to someone with a modicum of intelligence.

Ill try to take your advice and avoid action films. I was planning on sticking to drama and documentary anyway.
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18-11-2002, 15:14   #81
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dustaz
Yes, I take the point that the Godfather films are not a good example. The Lord of the Rings are a good example though, see my original comments.
...
No, the ongoing storyline is left open. Individual plotlines are clearly defined and parked.
Which is odd - because I honestly left the cinema (and turned off the DVD) with absolutely no questions that I felt weren't going to be answered in Episode III. Maybe this is part of the problem? You initially said that you think the "Wait for Episode III" answer is a cop out - perhaps this is why you feel like things were left open and not 'parked'

Quote:
Originally posted by Dustaz
Thanks, I'd worked that one out. Im glad that people with a modicum of intellegence are there to help out though.
So why ask the question, if you've already worked it out?


Quote:
Originally posted by Dustaz
Id disagree entirely. We could be told who made it and when in one simple line of dialogue. It wouldnt be pointless because it would add some history to a shrinking universe, one of my problems with this current trilogy. If you took out everything in the film that wasnt entirely important, wed be running at your 15 minutes (probably less)
The Star Wars universe is.. well.. pretty huge. If they were to explain everything in it, can you imagine how long the film would be? It would be monstrous. I can think of very little left in Episode II that was not there purely to help move the story along in a direct route (rather than travelling down all the side-roads it opens up, as you are suggesting).

Quote:
Originally posted by Dustaz
In explaining this so badly, Lucas created yet more confusion. "We must inform the senate that we can no longer use the force" ... really? Looked to me like the jedi could use the force pretty well. Sorry, but ideally I'd like some sort of example. Dont get me wrong, this in itself is not a big problem, but coupled it with all the other small problems and it begins to mount up.
Apologies - I believe it was me who created the confusion in paraphrasing the quote from Episode II. The exact quote is "I think it is time we inform the senate that our ability to use the force has diminished.". This is demonstrated by the simple fact that Jedis are supposed to be all-knowing, all-seeing, and yet they could not sense all the nastiness happening in Episode II before it happened - "Blind we are, if creation of this clone army we could not see.".

Quote:
Originally posted by Dustaz
The Emperor is 'The Bad Guy' and is nicely veiled in secrecy, I dont remember any unanswered questions (posed by the directory, not the audience) regarding him.
You have no idea how much this disappointed me - you seem such a curious fellow, I was certain you would have had questions about him in the Empire Strikes Back.. especially since you seem to have a few questions about him in Episode II.

For the rest of this response, see the first paragraph of my post.

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Originally posted by Dustaz
It doesnt matter if one is better than the other.
Uh - you asked me if it was better. I simply answered.

Quote:
Originally posted by Dustaz
Oh, a couple of things. If your going to point out my mispelt words, try not to mispell a word in the next sentance. Its not becoming to someone with a modicum of intelligence.
hehehehe - boom, ObeyGiant shoots himself in the foot. What an unfortunate typo. Thanks for pointing it out.

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Originally posted by Dustaz
Ill try to take your advice and avoid action films. I was planning on sticking to drama and documentary anyway.
I mean this sincerely - you would make a fantastic documentarian. I am certain that at the end of your documentaries, there would be absolutely no questions left unanswered.
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18-11-2002, 15:18   #82
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jesus those are some long posts lads.................
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18-11-2002, 15:44   #83
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jengo / boba fett situation

Jengo and boba fett had to make an appearance, 1. Because Jengo Fett was the template for the clone army

and 2. Boba Fett becomes the galaxies most deadly hunter, and who do you think the emperor is gonna get to hunt down the jedi?

plus the bit at the end where boba is holding his fathers severed head is a starting point of boba's emnity towards the jedi (mace window better look out )
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18-11-2002, 19:49   #84
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As someone said, these posts are getting a bit long

(also tbh, i cant believe im writing this much about such an obviously flawed film )

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Originally posted by ObeyGiant
Which is odd - because I honestly left the cinema (and turned off the DVD) with absolutely no questions that I felt weren't going to be answered in Episode III. Maybe this is part of the problem? You initially said that you think the "Wait for Episode III" answer is a cop out - perhaps this is why you feel like things were left open and not 'parked'
I dont doubt that things will be cleared up in episode 3 (well actually i do, but thats for another thread..). My problem with the film was that it posed a lot of questions, but really answered nothing. Look at Empire, It provides us with a huge amount of background to the jedi way of life, the force, the empire and a lot more. In some ways Attack achieves this well, for example the plotline of senator palpatine being given emergency powers is adequate. The background is explained and it leaves the audience wondering what he will do with the power. However, we are given a mysterious clone army, by a mysterious jedi who may or may not be dead and people accept this blindly without question (Obi Wan expresses mild suprise, Yoda even less so... This is enough? ).

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The Star Wars universe is.. well.. pretty huge. If they were to explain everything in it, can you imagine how long the film would be? It would be monstrous. I can think of very little left in Episode II that was not there purely to help move the story along in a direct route (rather than travelling down all the side-roads it opens up, as you are suggesting).
I dont want them to explain everything in it. I just want to see or hear more about things that dont really matter but add character to the universe. When we saw the first 3 films, we imagined a huge history and it was implied with things like Obi-Wan mentioning the Clone Wars. These films are shrinking the universe by concentrating on linking the 2 series together too much. Not everything has to tie in to both sets of films. There was a great example of this posted before: every jedi trained is trained by someone we know. Yoda>Duckman > qui gon> obi wan>anakin. Personally, id much prefer to see a wider cross section of jedi making for a more rich envoiroment. Similarly, if windu was to say something along the lines of "...as prophesised by Jedi Master FatBloke in the Time of Expansion", that would provide us with 1. a basis for validation of the prophecy and 2. a nice bit of background. Again, Mr Tolkien used this technique to good use a lot.

I know this sounds like im contradicting myself but all it takes is a bit of good script editing to sort out these problems.

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Apologies - I believe it was me who created the confusion in paraphrasing the quote from Episode II. The exact quote is "I think it is time we inform the senate that our ability to use the force has diminished.". This is demonstrated by the simple fact that Jedis are supposed to be all-knowing, all-seeing, and yet they could not sense all the nastiness happening in Episode II before it happened - "Blind we are, if creation of this clone army we could not see.".
Nah, i remembered the original quote and still found it to be rather clumsy. It redflags a major plot point but then skirts over it in favour of something else (my memory fails me as to what happens after this conversation)

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You have no idea how much this disappointed me - you seem such a curious fellow, I was certain you would have had questions about him in the Empire Strikes Back.. especially since you seem to have a few questions about him in Episode II.
Yes, of course there were questions, but they were broader questions about the ultimate fate of people ("Luke is Vaders son, how did that happen?", "Will han solo survive?") or irrelevant questions that should never be answered untill they become relevant ("Whats a light saber made of?", "How does the force work anyway?"). From what i remember none were essential to understand what happened in Empire.

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Uh - you asked me if it was better. I simply answered.
ok, weve both fallen into the trap of looking at minutae and not the big picture. Im trying not to talk about specifics but larger issues. When i say that this is unclear or that is badly handled, i dont mean they are immovable objects in the way of my understanding of the film (which it could be argued doesnt need any great understanding since its basically a fairy tale anyway). They are merely things that irritate and disapoint me.
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22-11-2002, 20:30   #85
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I've heard a lot of people saying it was a kids film
I hate to break it to you guys but Star Wars IS a kids film!! ever wondered why all the middle aged guys out there who watched the originals in the cinema as kids hate these films so much?! or even people my age (myself included) think that the likes of Jar Jar Binks are the shame of Star Wars?!

Its because we are no longer little kids who are well and truly transported to the galaxy far far away! we cant just loose ourselves in the story anymore! we have to criticise it, find the loop holes, find meaning in every little detail! I mean I remember reading something online shortly after the release of Attack of the Clones, it was this major debate as to why Samuel L Jackson's light saber was purple! the simple answer is that thats the colour he himself asked for...no big conspiracy there then!

Dont get me wrong here, I love Star Wars and was at the first screening of both EP1+2 in Cork!!

As to the love story its essential to the overall story! it marks the beginning of the end for Anakin! I mean he cant even stick to the easier of the Jedi rules ( well nobody ever said celibacy was easy but you know what I mean!) and its in his relationship with Amidala that you see the struggle within himself begin to emerge! Hell! the 12yr old I babysit told me that!

EP2 was far darker than EP1 or did it take a female perspective to pick up on Anakin's dark and brooding looks!?!
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22-11-2002, 22:29   #86
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Too much talk going on about the harlotry of lucas which is star wars, face facts its his own personal mint. Lets get on to more important matters like Natalie Portman, i was informed that they
digitally enhanced her assets in ep2 to make her more appealing, that true? This is the kind of stuff us nerds or to be politically correct most noble servants of the jedi order should be talking about.



Spoiler: p.s its only a film
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27-11-2002, 19:35   #87
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Originally posted by aine
I hate to break it to you guys but Star Wars IS a kids film!!
No it's not, it's a film for a general audience, i.e. for all ages.
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ever wondered why all the middle aged guys out there who watched the originals in the cinema as kids hate these films so much?!
Because they are dreadful films (Episodes I and II).
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or even people my age (myself included) think that the likes of Jar Jar Binks are the shame of Star Wars?!
If we wanted to see a cartoon character in a live-action movie we'd rent out Who Framed Roger Rabbit?.
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we cant just loose ourselves in the story anymore!
That's because the plot is uninteresting, the direction is flat and the acting worse than what you'd find in Fair City.
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I mean I remember reading something online shortly after the release of Attack of the Clones, it was this major debate as to why Samuel L Jackson's light saber was purple!
What does that tell you about the film that the most interesting thing in it was the colour of Samuel L Jackson's lightsaber?
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