Policy of compulsory Irish a spectacular failure for generations

[Draco]

Policy of compulsory Irish a spectacular failure for generations, book says

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/ire...28HMIRISH.html

Copied below for those too lazy to click on the link

Generations of pupils were failed by the education system and sacrificed on the altar of nationalist ideology because of the compulsory Irish policy in schools, a new book has claimed.

The book on compulsory Irish by Dr Adrian Kelly, which draws on recently released State papers, says the education of thousands of students was compromised by the policy, which was supported by all the main political parties and most of the academic establishment.

He says the State's policy from 1922 onwards was to revive the language via the primary schools, but this spectacularly failed and was detrimental to educational standards generally.

Dr Kelly is a graduate of NUI Maynooth and has also studied at the University of Helsinki. He has spent several years on the project.

"The policy increasingly became associated in the public mind with compulsion and examination and resentment built up over the necessity of passing Irish in order to be awarded school Leaving Cert examinations or to qualify for state employment," says the book.

Dr Kelly says the emphasis on Irish led to "intellectual and educational wastage" because it weakened pupils' achievement in other subjects, limited the scope of the curriculum and took the focus away from other areas of the education system.

The book, Compulsory Irish - Language and Education in Ireland 1870s to 1970s, says the policy was mistaken because it failed to interest people in the language.

The books also charts the history of the Language Freedom Movement and other critics who in the mid-1960s challenged the compulsory policy.

"Opposition to the method of revival was neatly equated with opposition to the language, and it was claimed that opposition to the Irish language was opposition to the very idea of the Irish nation," says the book.

"Critics of the methods used to revive the language were labelled anti-Irish, anti-Gaelic and anti-everything else."

He said even writers such as John B. Keane, an Irish speaker who questioned the policy in the 1960s, were described as "west Brits" for their stance.

In the foreword to the book, which is due to be published next month, the general secretary of the Irish National Teachers' Organisation, Senator Joe O'Toole, says Dr Kelly is going to need "a suit of mail to prepare for the certain onslaught". "There is no doubt that the publication of this book will bring the zealots out of the woodwork once again," he says.

I always resented the fact that irish was forced down my throat in school, especially since I was extremely bad at it (and not from lack of trying - I just find it hard to pick up languages in general) and have reached the stage I care not a bit about it.

(Mods- I stuck it in here as it seemed the most realivant forum for it.)

[WhiteWashMan]

i agree, it is a waste of time.
personally i was very good at as i went to an allirish school, and it counts as a langage if you need to go to college with that option, but no-one speaks it. no one uses it. no one needs it.
why waste time teaching something that 99% of pupils dont want adn that will never be used in any way at all?

an It literecy course or somthing would be far more benificial.
get em to learn c++ or something equally boring, but at least career orientated

[Xterminator]

I agree.

In 5 years of seconday school, i learned more french than my 13 years of being force fed Irish.

This was because of the approach, the methods and the materials used.
When I think of Irish, I remember tables of Verbs, and Peig (may she burn in hell).
Whereas french was largely oral, with emphasis on practical situations, where you might actually use it. eg resturant or trainstation etc.

I remember the French teacher showing us French videos of Les Miserables etc, and trying to bring it to life. I remember the school trip to france acting as a carrot to lear more.
The Irish teachers just plodded along, and by the time visiting the Gealteacht was mentioned, my dislike for the language was already there.
I remember 1 irish teacher from all the years, trying his best. He orgainsed Ceile's etc, but it was mostly too late.

And I resented the extra marks given to the Irish language exam students. I didint have a choice as ther was no 'Irish' school nearby my area, i bet most of the children in all Irish schools wernt given the choice either (just sent by there parents), so why were they rewarded for doing Maths in irish?

X

[Draco]

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan
it counts as a langage if you need to go to college

If I remember rightly to get into college in the first place you must pass math, English and Irish and Trinity counted it as a foreign language for course requirements.

[ReefBreak]

I can remember spending 6 months learning Peig for leaving cert (Ordinary/Pass/Whatever it's called now Level) Irish. Sat down to do the exam in June... Couldn't understand/translate any of the Peig questions so I had to skip the whole section. I can remember finishing the afternoon paper and thinking "well, thank fúck that's over." And I wasn't just talking about the exam. But it didn't matter anyway. Even with a D in Pass Irish, I still got my 1st choice college place. 14 years years spent "studying" Irish in our education system - it was such an ignominious end. And my point being? Em, none really. Just thught I'd have a rant.

Oh, and I'll bet you're asking, "You've re-discovered the desire to learn, once more, our beautiful native language? Haven't you?"

No.

[The Gopher]

As Im still in school, I have the misfortune of still studying this bog language.Irish was realised years ago by the Irish themselves as a backward language.It is fairly primitive in many respects.Ive been doing German a few years now and know at least as much,and most likely alot more,German than Irish.I was watching that Pop tv thing on TG4 tonight and I realised id have to think hard about half the stuff being said and asked during phone ins.Virtually nobody in my year save for maybe 10 studendts could have a conversation in Irish.The problem is that the teachers speak nothing but irish in class as if we should already understand it.Our teacher says turn to page caethar cuigear an mile or whatever and 75% of the class is fumbling about trying to find the page.

[stereo_steve]

I'm in 6th year at the moment and I hate Irish with a passion in school! Its because the course is just so bad! It has to be the subject that I hate the worst.

However I love Irish outside school. I went to the Gaeltacht last summer and enjoyed talking to friends in OUR langauge! Don't get me wrong, I'm not a really big nationalist but I do think that it is important for every Irish citizen to have an understanding of Irish. Its an extremly old language much much older than English. It has been spoken by the Irish for generations! Us speaking Irish is relatively new and only because we were tortured to do so. I admit that English is important in this country to attract foreign businesses but if well could speak both then it would be great.

[Caoimhin.old]

Curricula in most schools are structured so that MOST classes students take are compulsory. You don't call English compulsory, yet is all the more so than Irish, and in a large part of the world. In the last census about a million people answered they had proficiency in Irish, although one may doubt the accuracy of self reporting. Even if it's a lot less than a million, it's still a sizable minority of the population.
Two of you hit the nail right on the head, on two points: 1)the teaching methods need to be overhauled and brought up to date.
These methods must have as their aim to encourage respect and enthusiasm for the language, two key factors in any language teaching; and 2) the idea that any language is a "bog" language. Any language that is still alive and producing radio tv and literature can evolve to meet current social challenges, if respected and nurtured.

[Caoimhin.old]

This "bog" notion is not limited to language alone, but shows the self-loathing of a people who in the eyes of the dominant English speaking world are quaint and backward peasants who speak a most peculiar and quaint dialect of English. This is true even of people who are oblivious to the existence of Irish. If you think the English perception of the Irish as backwater peasants, even those who live in Dublin is going to dissappear with the death of the language which you encourage by your loathing of it, you are mistaken. That image will endure at least in the subconscious of British memory perhaps for centuries to come. Wise up, have some self respect for yourselves and for the 20,000 more or less who still use their native language in the Gaeltacht. After all, lately there's more people in the Gaeltacht working in hi-tech than on the land. But if you keep calling them "bog" people long enough, every one of them may turn their back on the language

[Xterminator]

Caoimhin,

You seem to be missing on of the biggest points here.

Irish is compulsory. Other (foreign) languages are not.

Comparing it to English is not a true comparison, as 98% + of us were born to English speaking parents, and have been studying English not as a foreign language, but as our natural language.

Irish is foreign to most of us, as a language. This is a fact. You may not like it but it is fact.

If Irish were a choice, then students would no longer resent being forced to learn the language.
If addressing the utter failure of the teaching of Irish in our schools, surely this would be ne of the aspects that needs to be reformed.

X

[Celt]

Originally posted by Caoimhín
Curricula in most schools are structured so that MOST classes students take are compulsory.

mm?Irish/maths/english/irish is hardly most, it's more like 50%.

You don't call English compulsory, yet is all the more so than Irish

What are you on? english is compulsory, just as it's our first language it isnt quite so bad as irish.
Also how can a subject be more compulsory than another?
Compulsory is compulsory.

Any language that is still alive and producing radio tv and literature can evolve to meet current social challenges, if respected and nurtured.

Barely alive. Also the main reason it's still producing is because of government funding, i.e. it's being forced on us like irish at schools is.

And your points about irish people being regarded as quaint bog people is just pure bs.

[Caoimhin.old]

This wasn't my idea. Read Gopher's message. And you don't think his opinion is widespread?

[Celt]

Originally posted by Caoimhín
This wasn't my idea. Read Gopher's message. And you don't think his opinion is widespread?

No, I have never heard it referred to as the bog language/people before, either by Irish or foreigners....

[Rolo Tomasi]

I have the misfortune of still studying this bog language.Irish was realised years ago by the Irish themselves as a backward language - Gopher

Oh dear, where do I start? We realised long ago that this was a backward language. WHAT?- "the Irish"- where the f**k are you from?

A bog language - from my experience in school the only people that regarded Irish as a bog language where students of below average intelligence who struggled to cope with it.

Those who enjoyed Irish regardless of ability recognised that our language is one the main characteristics that defines us a separate and unique race in Europe.

Personally I believe that the language should remain compulsory in school. If nothing else so people have a sense of who we are and where we came and to prevent the rest of the world from regarding Ireland as West Britain

[ReefBreak]

Rolo, I hope you read the new book to be released next month - "Compulsory Irish" - which apparently addresses the "spectacular failure of compulsory Irish down the ages". I intend to read it, as I find this whole debate very interesting.

I also find it very interesting that the majority of contempt towards Irish always comes from the students currently studying it. Five years later, and everyone seems to turn into a bunch of right-on plebs mouthing off about how Irish gives us "a sense of who we are and where we came and to prevent the rest of the world from regarding Ireland as West Britain." Say that to the student who has to study the damn thing. He/she generally doesn't give a monkey's fart about the cultural value of the language - they just want the grade that'll give them the points they need so they won't have to repeat and do it all over again.

from my experience in school the only people that regarded Irish as a bog language where students of below average intelligence who struggled to cope with it.

Not to put too fine a point on it but: bóllox. I can give you plenty of examples here. The guy who came first in our school during my year (almost all As, including a A in the old Honours Maths course) was in the Pass Irish class - he couldn't give a toss about it. My sister despised studying it, got a C in the Leaving, yet proceeded to come first in her class in University. I got my first choice CAO option, got an honours degree and a postgrad, yet I got a D in Pass Irish - mainly because I gave up giving a shít after the inter-Cert.

And of course there's the ex-pat Irish Times letter-writer who will wax lyrical about keeping Irish compulsory even though he's far removed from having to toil over it on a nightly basis:
Letter in today's Irish Times