[UU]

I disagree with you to say that many organised religions are bad. I view religious organisations, such as the Catholic Church, more like a club. For example, someone wishs to do sport, art etc. they have two main options - (1) Join a soccer, GAA club, etc. where they are with people who play the same sport together and are distinct members and follow rules ,or, - (2) Do the hobby on their own or with their friends casually where there is no organisation, membership and rules.

This example is like anyone can have religion in two main ways - (1) An organised religious system where people believe and worship the same things, where there are rules, doctrines, texts, government/leader(s), etc. or (2) Where people have their own personal beliefs but there are no set laws, doctrines, leaders, etc. (i.e. unorganised religion).

I think religions need to have some sort of governing, like a club, but democratic or they will fall apart but I don't think they should have any control with a country or state as they're not the only religion and their beliefs should not be enforced upon individuals. I like a religion where people can have more variety in beliefs(options) and are able to accept each other's beliefs.

I'm a part of a religion called Unitarian Universalism but it's different than most other organised religions as it teaches that nearly every religion in the world(including paganism) has something to offer mankind so many people belief in different things including humanism and there is a democratic commitee which is elected by every member of that religion. We pray together once a week in covenent where different topics are discussed which help people to form there own beliefs and be more aware of the world around them.

And on a lasting note. Many wars and violence haven't occured and occur due to religion but for some other reason and religion is the excuse given to hide that reason. For example, Protestant versus Catholic in the North and Reformation and some people said and say thay hate Jews because Jews say that they're God's Chosen People, Christians and Muslims also say they're Chosen too.

If you say organised religions do more harm than good, then you could say that about anything.

[bus77]

Originally Posted by Kopf

That's what I'm saying...

In short - a belief in the afterlife discourages people from a "Carpe Diem" philosophy.

I dont know about that. I was left out of religion altogether but have allways had what could be called the opposite of a "Carpe Diem" philosophy. Lazyness has been my constant companion. I'm working on it though.

Originally Posted by Kopf

I am, however, scared of a violent death, or of being robbed of my life. But this is something i've always lived with.

But then again, I've never really been afraid of much in life so there seems to be some sort of trade off here.
You can't win can you

[bus77]

Originally Posted by UU

I'm a part of a religion called Unitarian Universalism but it's different than most other organised religions as it teaches that nearly every religion in the world(including paganism) has something to offer mankind so many people belief in different things including humanism and there is a democratic commitee which is elected by every member of that religion. We pray together once a week in covenent where different topics are discussed which help people to form there own beliefs and be more aware of the world around them.

Sounds great. The story of the Socinians and the polish brotherhood is very interesting. Isnt it allways the millitants that feck it up for everybody?

Edit; Apologies, apparentely there are fundamental differences between Socinians/Unitarians.

[Kopf]

Your post starts off by saying you disagree, and then you state your opinion of how an organised religion works for a few paragraphs, and then have one paragraph that scarcely addresses just one of the points i made in my first post.

I don't see how the wars during the reformation used religion as a screen to hide behind either. They were religious wars.

[UU]

Originally Posted by bus77

Sounds great. The story of the Socinians and the polish brotherhood is very interesting. Isnt it allways the millitants that feck it up for everybody?

Lol! Yeah, thats what my friend has started calling the Vatican these days also. That's why I like Unitarian Universalism(UU - despite its incredibly long name!) as the congregations are listened to, are able to discuss their own beliefs and topics. There is no higher-archey but a minister and speakers who are more like spokespeople unlike in the Catholic Church where the priest is looked upon as to be better and a higher authority than everyone else, which I think is wrong. Although both Unitarianism and Universalism came from Protestant groups such as Puritins, the Bible is looked upon as mythical and the stories are used for their symbolism.

I used to be Catholic, myself, but I gave up on it. I don't dislike the religion itself but the Church.

[UU]

To Kopf, during the Reformation, the Church disliked Protestants because they were trying to take the power from them by setting up new non-Catholic Churchs which they feared and hated. The Prods still believed in Christ with some different beliefs but looked to the Bible as the supreme authority not church leaders. For example, if a group of Catholics set up their own church but still followed Catholic teachings, beliefs and doctrines, etc. but rejected the church leaders as the supreme authorities, the church would most definitely still dislike them so the Reformation was much more than a matter of beliefs but political too so it would be unfair to call it a religious war as such, even though it seems so.

[Kopf]

Read what I wrote.

I'm not calling the reformation a religious war.

I never did.

I know what the reformation was, and what happened during it.

I suggest you read up on the wars that occured as a result of it.

[Excelsior]

Originally Posted by Kopf

What can the Roman Catholic Church be labelled, if not christian?

Roman Catholicism is a subset of Christianity. It is not Christianity whole, as so often is the assumption amongst Irish people.

Your argument with regard to intellectual history is based on a reductionism that won't stand to deep analysis. The founders of what we know as empirical science began their research almost to a person and certainly within a culture drenched in the Biblical assumption that God has given us a Creation defined by order and amenable to discovery as an act of worship. Institutionalised religion has stood in the way of these discoveries but just taking Galileo and Pascal as two well known examples, they attributed so much of their work to their faith.

I think the point that UU is making is that although the reformation wars were able to use institutionalised religion as a major rallying call and although religious zealotry raised the temperature such that it is a cause, it was not the major cause. The major cause was political and financial as Europe's mini kingdoms reorganised themselves and found Calvin, Luther and the Bishop of Rome to be good social foundations.

Jesus states the commandments to be "Love your God with all your heart, all your mind and your neighbour as yourself". Christianity is not anti-intellectual.

UU- I guess my problem with your definition of religion is that every religion in the world except Unitarianism would be deeply offended by it. Show me a Buddhist who thinks that they have joined a spirituality club? It can barely be imagined (outside of Richard Gere Buddhism). People join religions because they think they are true, that they explain the nature of the world. While you are driven by a desire to be tolerant, you are expressing a deeply patronising and intolerant view if you declare yourself more capable than them in discerning that what they believe to be unique truth is in fact, a mirage, (which is what comparing religions to soccer clubs makes me think of).

Kopf, you've said that "I hope this AT LEAST serves as an example of how to start a proper, intellectual debate" but whether you mean it or not, the way you're engaging is kind of aggressive.

[UU]

I feel bad now . I didn't mean at all to be offensive as I know that many people do believe that their religion is the true religion and the explanation of life's mysteries and also take comfort in it. I, myself, don't believe there is any true religion at all but something to be learned from every religion which many would reject. I was only metaphorically comparing organised religions to be somewhat similiar to soccer clubs, etc., as they consist of a head or heads, have a congregation, rules, etc. which make up the actual assembly of it but with a spiritual side of beliefs, doctrines, holy books, history, prophets, etc. which is a lot more than any club. A club can be used of it's defined as an "association of people who share a common interest, belief".

Actually religious systems are cults. I know it sounds degrading but a cult can be defined as "a system of religious worship" and "pursuit of, devotion to, some person, thing, or activity" which covers both organised and unorganised faiths. Even though many would disagree with me and say that cults are commonly portrayed as pagan, satanist, sacrificial faiths, which are far from organised faiths, cults are a lot more than just that.

Unitarian Universalism is still an organised religion and cult just like Catholicism, Protestantism, Judaism, Islam, etc. so it is no less a religion.

I know many will say that I'm degrading religions as many have faith in them and organised religions aren't some, freaky secret cult but I rest my case.