"In Jan/Feb you should be spending 35-40% of training time swimming"

Kurt_Godel · 05-01-2016 12:42pm #1

This is a great Youtube vid (haven't watched all of them yet), got sent it by another poster. Some real gold in there, a lot of advice which backs up things intuitively discovered, including:

"Train fast to race fast"

"Swim fast in every single workout"

"If you only do intervals at 1:30 (pace) you will always race at 1:30. If you do intervals at 1:30 and includes bursts at 1:20 or faster, then on raceday you will always race faster than 1:30."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdtZctJW_Yk

MojoMaker · 05-01-2016 12:50pm

It's an excellent series - well worth a watch, I think 13 vids totalling 90 mins or so.

Looks like Gerry's finally been listening to PK.

Some other nuggets - "ditch the drills" and "the snorkel is the most valuable piece of kit in the triathlete's bag".

pgibbo · 05-01-2016 1:51pm

When are you doing the 4x1000 Kurt? :eek:

it's all about the CONSISTENCY!!!!

peter kern · 05-01-2016 1:56pm

but kurt thinks oly guys train less than LD guys ;-)

Kurt_Godel · 05-01-2016 2:46pm

I've done 5x1000 before, found it very useful. In fact it is one of the sessions that benefited from the "swim fast" points that stood out from the linked video. The 5x1000 we rotated lead, and I swam a 1km PB while 5sec behind feet. When I went to lead out, I ended up swimming much faster than any sole 1km before. No matter how you achieve it- drafting, sprinting, fins, whatever- swimming fast teaches you that you can swim fast, and helps build correct stroke/position which can then be applied to distance swims. One of those things that you notice intuitively over the years, so good to see that point highlighted in the video.

zico10 · 05-01-2016 3:20pm

pgibbo wrote: »

When are you doing the 4x1000 Kurt? :eek:

it's all about the CONSISTENCY!!!!

There's nothing particularly daunting about the 4*1000 set he describes. Half of it is pull. Then for the second set of 10*100, even though you're swimming fast, he recommends 30-45 seconds rest. This is a huge ammount of time, if Kurt were to take the maximum permissible recovery, he'd be resting for more than 50% of the time he has to swim in this set. The 4,000m would be a piece of p!ss to him and he'd do it in little over an hour, I'd say.

I certainly see value in it, and it's a set I intend using a good bit. I'm coming around to the thinking that it will stand me in better stead, than the 10*400m sessions I regularly do.

MojoMaker wrote: »

It's an excellent series - well worth a watch, I think 13 vids totalling 90 mins or so.

Looks like Gerry's finally been listening to PK.

Some other nuggets - "ditch the drills" and "the snorkel is the most valuable piece of kit in the triathlete's bag".

It's a an excellent series certainly, but I think the two nuggets you highlight should not be looked at in isolation. He only recommends ditching the drills to the typical triathlete who doesn't spend enough time in the water and should instead just spend their time swimming. I don't think he's necessarily saying that drills are no good. At least that's what I took from it.

The nugget on the snorkel needs to be qualified as well. Apart from it being just one man's opinion, the danger of just taking it in isolation is that somebody might just look at this and think swimming with a snorkel is great training, spend all their time in the pool using one, and then when it comes to race day wonder why they struggle in the swim.
I saw someone recently spend half an hour swimming with paddles and fins, not a very good use of time I would have thought, but perhaps this swimmer heard from someone that paddles are 'the most valuable piece of kit in the triathlete's bag', then heard from someone else that fins are.
He goes into detail on how to breathe correctly, this would be a far more valuable lesson to take away than what he says about snorkels.

pgibbo · 05-01-2016 4:24pm

zico10 wrote: »

There's nothing particularly daunting about the 4*1000 set he describes. Half of it is pull. Then for the second set of 10*100, even though you're swimming fast, he recommends 30-45 seconds rest. This is a huge ammount of time, if Kurt were to take the maximum permissible recovery, he'd be resting for more than 50% of the time he has to swim in this set. The 4,000m would be a piece of p!ss to him and he'd do it in little over an hour, I'd say.

I certainly see value in it, and it's a set I intend using a good bit. I'm coming around to the thinking that it will stand me in better stead, than the 10*400m sessions I regularly do.

It's a an excellent series certainly, but I think the two nuggets you highlight should not be looked at in isolation. He only recommends ditching the drills to the typical triathlete who doesn't spend enough time in the water and should instead just spend their time swimming. I don't think he's necessarily saying that drills are no good. At least that's what I took from it.

The nugget on the snorkel needs to be qualified as well. Apart from it being just one man's opinion, the danger of just taking it in isolation is that somebody might just look at this and think swimming with a snorkel is great training, spend all their time in the pool using one, and then when it comes to race day wonder why they struggle in the swim.
I saw someone recently spend half an hour swimming with paddles and fins, not a very good use of time I would have thought, but perhaps this swimmer heard from someone that paddles are 'the most valuable piece of kit in the triathlete's bag', then heard from someone else that fins are.
He goes into detail on how to breathe correctly, this would be a far more valuable lesson to take away than what he says about snorkels.

So I went back to listen to G as I'd never seen the series before. Fair comment about the session. So minimum of 3 workouts a week consistently with at least one for 90mins. Simples

Main set for anyone without YouTube at work
4x250 pull with snorkel and band with 20s rest as a progressive set. Each 250 gets harder (70, 75, 80, 85-88%)
10x100 as fast as you can with 3s to 7s rest (85-88% effort)
2x500 pull with snorkel and band with 30s rest at 75% focus on form
10x100 swim 30 to 60s rest at 90% effort

Now to find the time to listen to the whole series from the start. Thanks Kurt

peter kern · 05-01-2016 4:26pm

for the picking out one point and make it the gold nugget ...

joe fillol thinks the snorkls are useles gary thinks very useful
joe thinks paddles are very useful gary dosnt like them

both are very good coaches

to pick out one point and say thats the key to success is questionalbe ( if there was one it would be that they are both very good at what they do ;- )

of course you need to also consider with what atheltes they work with ( and garys video is for the 20 -40 min mile swimmer ) joe only with elite guys and even the bad swimmers in his squad are very good swimmers

and certainly to learn swimming a snorkle can be a good tool.in my mind up to 7 min 400 m swimmer , useful, bellow 7 min not so useful.

BTH · 05-01-2016 6:46pm

Does he mention anything about TRX on the poolside??

MojoMaker · 05-01-2016 7:14pm

Incidentally, in his note about spending up to 40% of your time swimming at this time of the year, he does preface this with "if your tri weakness is swimming" and looks like his training groups are mostly advanced AGers with some new US domestic lower-tier pros, although the audience in the video talk does seem to be a very mixed bag!

peter kern · 05-01-2016 8:13pm

BTH wrote: »

Does he mention anything about TRX on the poolside??

cross fit he suggests

Mr Tango · 05-01-2016 11:30pm

IS it just me or would 4 (or 5) X 1000 not just be really boring? Similar to a 2 hour turbo just pedalling ?

cart man · 05-01-2016 11:56pm

Mr Tango wrote: »

IS it just me or would 4 (or 5) X 1000 not just be really boring? Similar to a 2 hour turbo just pedalling ?

No it's not just you who thinks that. :rolleyes:

In my limited experience I think 40% time to swimming is too much. That would be along the lines of what I did last spring. All that ended up happening was that I got out of the water reasonably high up the field and continued to be passed through out the race. This year I will cut back on swimming until June and add an extra 1-2 turbo sessions, I reckon the couple mins (if even) lost in swim will be made up in better bike split and feeling fresher on the run. Anyone wiser have any thoughts on this?

griffin100 · 06-01-2016 12:25am

In my experience it seems to me that you will get a different opinion from almost every coach and you will almost always be able to find a coach that says what you want to hear.

Different opinions on:
DPS
Using pull buoys
Using snorkels
Doing drills
Swimming fast in every session
The glide
Stroke rate
Head position
The catch
Etc etc

What needs to be taken into account is that the advice above and in many similar videos is advice for AG triathletes, people who for the most part don't swim big weekly distances and race in wetsuits. From what I've seen at my kids swim squad sessions the advice given to pure swimmers is very different.

Think about the difference between a swimmer and your average AG triathlete. I'm an ok tri swimmer, I try to swim around 8-10km per week and I usually exit the water in the top quarter of the tri pack. My ten year old son can match me over 50m in the pool.

bryangiggsy · 06-01-2016 8:58am

Re swimming fast... maybe jb can back me up here as he sees the same guy ... There is a chap in the pool we swim in in Drogheda that is a fish I reckon an 18-19 min 1500 m swimmer ... he gets in the pool and just swims really fast non stop length after length ... he puts 2 lengths of a 25m into me every 6 lengths i have swam..he has a big tumble turn but other than that the only difference between I and him is his cadence speed as his no of strokes per length is exact same as me 22-23. So he uses 22-23 strokes to cover one length but covers the length a lot faster than me . His strength is far superior to mine while his kick like mine does not really play a part as his hips drop like mine... so the difference imo is pure upper bodystrength to be able to turn 22-23 much quicker than I can . For some context I am a 23 min 1500 m swimmer in wetsuit.

06-01-2016 11:06am

bryangiggsy wrote: »

Re swimming fast... maybe jb can back me up here as he sees the same guy ... There is a chap in the pool we swim in in Drogheda that is a fish I reckon an 18-19 min 1500 m swimmer ... he gets in the pool and just swims really fast non stop length after length ... he puts 2 lengths of a 25m into me every 6 lengths i have swam..he has a big tumble turn but other than that the only difference between I and him is his cadence speed as his no of strokes per length is exact same as me 22-23. So he uses 22-23 strokes to cover one length but covers the length a lot faster than me . His strength is far superior to mine while his kick like mine does not really play a part as his hips drop like mine... so the difference imo is pure upper bodystrength to be able to turn 22-23 much quicker than I can . For some context I am a 23 min 1500 m swimmer in wetsuit.

That guy is a machine, gets in swims about 4k holding 1.15s/20s all the way with no drop off in pace and gets out. Not the most attractive style but a very fast and powerful stroke. Super upper body strength and fitness to hold that pace for so long.
BTW i hate when he is in the lane as its depressing how many times he overtakes me:)

pgibbo · 06-01-2016 12:01pm

Mr Tango wrote: »

IS it just me or would 4 (or 5) X 1000 not just be really boring? Similar to a 2 hour turbo just pedalling ?

It's not a straight 4x1000. They're 4x1000 as 4x250, 10x100, 2x500 & 10x100

4x1000 would be mind numbing

sconhome · 06-01-2016 12:17pm

Mr Tango wrote: »

IS it just me or would 4 (or 5) X 1000 not just be really boring? Similar to a 2 hour turbo just pedalling ?

Spare a thought for those of us who would need 2 hours to do 4x1000 swim

MalDoc · 06-01-2016 12:48pm

bryangiggsy wrote: »

Re swimming fast... maybe jb can back me up here as he sees the same guy ... There is a chap in the pool we swim in in Drogheda that is a fish I reckon an 18-19 min 1500 m swimmer ... he gets in the pool and just swims really fast non stop length after length ... he puts 2 lengths of a 25m into me every 6 lengths i have swam..he has a big tumble turn but other than that the only difference between I and him is his cadence speed as his no of strokes per length is exact same as me 22-23. So he uses 22-23 strokes to cover one length but covers the length a lot faster than me . His strength is far superior to mine while his kick like mine does not really play a part as his hips drop like mine... so the difference imo is pure upper bodystrength to be able to turn 22-23 much quicker than I can . For some context I am a 23 min 1500 m swimmer in wetsuit.

I'm nowhere near your level (>30 minuntes 1500m in a wetsuit) but really struggled to raise my cadence above 60 spm all last season.
Anything over 100m and I was stuck at this speed. My hand was entering the water almost a foot further than where I thought.
I was given an exaggerated hand entry drill (think hand entering up near your ears) which felt alien to me and do 4*25m at the start and end of your session.
It made a huge difference and after two weeks I was at ~68 spm for the same effort. This was also after a 4-5 week lay off with no swimming and almost zero training so not a fitness issue.
Probably not a factor but said I'd throw it out there.

bryangiggsy · 06-01-2016 1:29pm

Colt Salmon Mothball wrote: »

That guy is a machine, gets in swims about 4k holding 1.15s/20s all the way with no drop off in pace and gets out. Not the most attractive style but a very fast and powerful stroke. Super upper body strength and fitness to hold that pace for so long.
BTW i hate when he is in the lane as its depressing how many times he overtakes me:)

The fooker even gets out of the pool quicker than anyone else . 4k bang jumps out of pool as if it's t1 and heads for the showers

peter kern · 06-01-2016 2:20pm

many roads lead to rome and a good coach would give different advidse to different swimmers because they have a good understadning what works for certain type of athelte.

and here is the problem you need to understand why somebody would suggest something in the overall system ( if you look at this you understand while gary likes snorkels a lot ) wheras a more strenght focused coach would advocate more paddal work .

overall it is always much better to look at the bigger picture than singeling one or 2 things out . but while he buts differetne accents on overall he speaks the same language as lets say joe fillol that dosnt like snorkels.

I would not really agree with garrys view to not like paddles for slower swimmers but I understand his reasoning , for slower swimmers and he also compensates it with using another toy that has a very similar effect and is more useful for what his main emphasis is on swimming a tougt body.

and of course all those talks are never specific but as long you start to think afterwards they are good.

Me thinks s a coach what you can learn , how calm and precise he is he has a very good presence and communicates very well. iam pretty sure he lost very few people during this talk.

as a swimmer that you have to be present in the water and piss poor training leads to piss poor results.

griffin100 wrote: »

In my experience it seems to me that you will get a different opinion from almost every coach and you will almost always be able to find a coach that says what you want to hear.

Different opinions on:
DPS
Using pull buoys
Using snorkels
Doing drills
Swimming fast in every session
The glide
Stroke rate
Head position
The catch
Etc etc

What needs to be taken into account is that the advice above and in many similar videos is advice for AG triathletes, people who for the most part don't swim big weekly distances and race in wetsuits. From what I've seen at my kids swim squad sessions the advice given to pure swimmers is very different.

Think about the difference between a swimmer and your average AG triathlete. I'm an ok tri swimmer, I try to swim around 8-10km per week and I usually exit the water in the top quarter of the tri pack. My ten year old son can match me over 50m in the pool.

zico10 · 06-01-2016 3:59pm

cart man wrote: »

In my limited experience I think 40% time to swimming is too much. That would be along the lines of what I did last spring. All that ended up happening was that I got out of the water reasonably high up the field and continued to be passed through out the race. This year I will cut back on swimming until June and add an extra 1-2 turbo sessions, I reckon the couple mins (if even) lost in swim will be made up in better bike split and feeling fresher on the run. Anyone wiser have any thoughts on this?

It's not just about the time lost in the water though.

You talk about feeling better for the run, what about being fresher for the bike? I'd suggest that cutting back on your swim training is not the way to go about this. You could be as strong as you like on the bike, but you won't perform to your potential if the swim takes too much out of you. This needs to be a consideration as well.

Apart from this series of videos, I've heard it from lots of sources that now is the time of year you make improvements in the water. Cutting back on your swim now, then increasing it in June, seems counter intuitive to me.

cart man · 06-01-2016 6:22pm

zico10 wrote: »

It's not just about the time lost in the water though.

I've heard it from lots of sources that now is the time of year you make improvements in the water. Cutting back on your swim now, then increasing it in June, seems counter intuitive to me.

Thanks Zico for your feedback, but what if I am happy with my current swim level and not prioritise making improvements? I am time strapped and believe that I will make more net time by adding a 1hr turbo (3rd bike session) than a 3rd pool session.

Mr Tango · 06-01-2016 8:23pm

bryangiggsy wrote: »

Re swimming fast... maybe jb can back me up here as he sees the same guy ... There is a chap in the pool we swim in in Drogheda that is a fish I reckon an 18-19 min 1500 m swimmer ... he gets in the pool and just swims really fast non stop length after length ... he puts 2 lengths of a 25m into me every 6 lengths i have swam..he has a big tumble turn but other than that the only difference between I and him is his cadence speed as his no of strokes per length is exact same as me 22-23. So he uses 22-23 strokes to cover one length but covers the length a lot faster than me . His strength is far superior to mine while his kick like mine does not really play a part as his hips drop like mine... so the difference imo is pure upper bodystrength to be able to turn 22-23 much quicker than I can . For some context I am a 23 min 1500 m swimmer in wetsuit.

Technique - probably many years of club swimming

bryangiggsy · 06-01-2016 8:38pm

MalDoc wrote: »

I'm nowhere near your level (>30 minuntes 1500m in a wetsuit) but really struggled to raise my cadence above 60 spm all last season.
Anything over 100m and I was stuck at this speed. My hand was entering the water almost a foot further than where I thought.
I was given an exaggerated hand entry drill (think hand entering up near your ears) which felt alien to me and do 4*25m at the start and end of your session.
It made a huge difference and after two weeks I was at ~68 spm for the same effort. This was also after a 4-5 week lay off with no swimming and almost zero training so not a fitness issue.
Probably not a factor but said I'd throw it out there.

Cheers for that. Am always willing to try new things

bryangiggsy · 06-01-2016 8:39pm

Mr Tango wrote: »

Technique - probably many years of club swimming

Defo a club swimmer since a young age. Sticks out like a sore thumb as such.

MojoMaker · 06-01-2016 11:49pm

MalDoc wrote: »

I'm nowhere near your level (>30 minuntes 1500m in a wetsuit) but really struggled to raise my cadence above 60 spm all last season.
Anything over 100m and I was stuck at this speed. My hand was entering the water almost a foot further than where I thought.
I was given an exaggerated hand entry drill (think hand entering up near your ears) which felt alien to me and do 4*25m at the start and end of your session.
It made a huge difference and after two weeks I was at ~68 spm for the same effort. This was also after a 4-5 week lay off with no swimming and almost zero training so not a fitness issue.
Probably not a factor but said I'd throw it out there.

The acid test though...did you actually get faster through the water?

zico10 · 07-01-2016 12:12am

cart man wrote: »

Thanks Zico for your feedback, but what if I am happy with my current swim level and not prioritise making improvements? I am time strapped and believe that I will make more net time by adding a 1hr turbo (3rd bike session) than a 3rd pool session.

I don't like lecturing to people on what they should and shouldn't be doing. I often ignore advice and just do what I think needs to done in my own training. If you think you'd be better served with an extra hour on the turbo, then that's your decision to make.

It's just you suggested in your first post that you were considering cutting back on swimming now, then increasing it in June. My advice, for what it's worth, would be to wait until June to cut back on your swimming. You could introduce the extra turbo set then. In the three swim sessions you do, just make sure there is fast swimming in each one. You'll make fitness gains this way, and they will transfer to the bike.

zico10 · 07-01-2016 8:08am

For cart man or any other triathletes pressed for time this would be worth a listen;
http://effortlessswimming.com/podcast/race-ready-with-gerry-rodrigues-of-tower-26/

It's an interview with the same guy in the YouTube video. In summary the 4*1,000 set pgibbo described can be done 4*900, 4*800, etc.

The speaker also details a very specific race set. You might look like a plonker doing it in your local pool, but c'est la vie.

For the really time pressed athletes, he starts detailing the sets, someone only swimming 2/3 times a week should be doing, from 18:30.

Credit to PK for making me aware of this, I'm sure he won't mind me sharing.

pgibbo · 07-01-2016 2:43pm

The other option is to swim race pace all the time

peter kern · 07-01-2016 3:26pm

zico10 wrote: »

I don't like lecturing to people on what they should and shouldn't be doing. I often ignore advice and just do what I think needs to done in my own training. If you think you'd be better served with an extra hour on the turbo, then that's your decision to make.

It's just you suggested in your first post that you were considering cutting back on swimming now, then increasing it in June. My advice, for what it's worth, would be to wait until June to cut back on your swimming. You could introduce the extra turbo set then. In the three swim sessions you do, just make sure there is fast swimming in each one. You'll make fitness gains this way, and they will transfer to the bike.

i think cartman has it right

"In Jan/Feb you should be spending 35-40% of training time swimming"

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