Advice Needed re: retrospective planning

helimachoptor · 01-09-2015 2:07pm #1

Hi guys, looking for a bit of advice.

In the process of buying a house (was due to draw down this week)
however it has come to light that the cert of exemption for the utility room (behind garage but at side of house) states that while the utility room (15 sq meters) doesn't comply with planning, it is in situ about 15 years so from a council planning perspective we arent going to be asked to tear it down

The bank are refusing to provide funds

the solicitor have given us a few options the most realistic of which is below

- Engage architect and building engineer to advise on how to bring the utility room up to code. Engage with bank and give commitment that with 6 months of release of funds we will provide cert of compliance

Agree with EA that costs will be deducted from house price (this conversation has happened and EA seems amenable however decision remains with vendor)

What is in the utility room at the moment is an oil boiler (being removed anyway) and toilet, we were going to use to for the washing machine and drier and storage. It has a door to access the garden.

Could anyone ball park the costs?

I've engaged an architect and the surveyor we used so just waiting on them to come back aswell

Strolling Bones · 01-09-2015 2:56pm

Get the seller to sort this out.
Very foolish for you to do so.
You may sort his problem out only for him to gazump you.

Strolling Bones · 01-09-2015 2:59pm

helimachoptor wrote: »

the cert of exemption for the utility room (behind garage but at side of house) states that while the utility room (15 sq meters) doesn't comply with planning, it is in situ about 15 years so from a council planning perspective we arent going to be asked to tear it down

The bank are refusing to provide funds

All self builders / extenders / improvers take note.

Lenders.

The de facto enforcers of building standards in Ireland.

The true cost of exempted development and / or ignoring compliance issues is failure to sell.

helimachoptor · 01-09-2015 3:01pm

Strolling Bones wrote: »

Get the seller to sort this out.
Very foolish for you to do so.
You may sort his problem out only for him to gazump you.

We would only be sorting if the sale is proceeding and they deduct costs from the sale price.

Buy price - Cost of work/planning = new buy price

Strolling Bones · 01-09-2015 3:14pm

helimachoptor wrote: »

We would only be sorting if the sale is proceeding and they deduct costs from the sale price.

Buy price - Cost of work/planning = new buy price

1. Proceed as agreed.
2. You fund the red tape - up front.
3. Council issues Decision to Grant
4. Vendor has "change of heart" . Pulls out of sale.
5. Council issues Grant.
6. After 6 months vendor has another change of heart and places clean property on the market again.
7. You may or may not get refund of expenditure from item 2 above.

Gumbo · 01-09-2015 3:33pm

helimachoptor wrote: »

We would only be sorting if the sale is proceeding and they deduct costs from the sale price.

Buy price - Cost of work/planning = new buy price

A retention application could cost as little as €1000. But it has to go through that statutory process of planning, so newspaper notice, site notice and a 2 month duration without a decision.

Where is the house located?

Strolling Bones · 01-09-2015 3:36pm

Or ...

1. Proceed as agreed.
2. You fund the red tape - up front.
3. Council issues Decision to Grant - with conditions you do not like i.e. financial contribution.
4. Vendor says tough - you pay it.
5. Council issues Grant.
6. You pull out of sale.
7. You may or may not get refund of expenditure from item 2 above.

Strolling Bones · 01-09-2015 3:38pm

Or ...

1. Proceed as agreed.
2. You fund the red tape - up front.
3. Council refuses premision
4. Vendor pulls out of sale crying poor mouth.
5. You may or may not get refund of expenditure from item 2 above.

helimachoptor · 01-09-2015 3:42pm

Strolling Bones wrote: »

1. Proceed as agreed.
2. You fund the red tape - up front.
3. Council issues Decision to Grant
4. Vendor has "change of heart" . Pulls out of sale.
5. Council issues Grant.
6. After 6 months vendor has another change of heart and places clean property on the market again.
7. You may or may not get refund of expenditure from item 2 above.

We wont get into the above position, we have signed but have a condition that we can exit if the bank dont allow us to draw down based on something beyond our control which this is.

We will have to re-sign but we will re-sign at a price minus the cost of the work. We wont be doing anything until we actually take possession.

helimachoptor · 01-09-2015 3:50pm

this is all assuming the bank are still happy to fund the purchase based on us getting permission..

antiskeptic · 01-09-2015 3:54pm

helimachoptor wrote: »

Hi guys, looking for a bit of advice.

In the process of buying a house (was due to draw down this week)
however it has come to light that the cert of exemption for the utility room (behind garage but at side of house) states that while the utility room (15 sq meters) doesn't comply with planning, it is in situ about 15 years so from a council planning perspective we arent going to be asked to tear it down

The bank are refusing to provide funds

the solicitor have given us a few options the most realistic of which is below

- Engage architect and building engineer to advise on how to bring the utility room up to code. Engage with bank and give commitment that with 6 months of release of funds we will provide cert of compliance

Agree with EA that costs will be deducted from house price (this conversation has happened and EA seems amenable however decision remains with vendor)

What is in the utility room at the moment is an oil boiler (being removed anyway) and toilet, we were going to use to for the washing machine and drier and storage. It has a door to access the garden.

Could anyone ball park the costs?

I've engaged an architect and the surveyor we used so just waiting on them to come back aswell

Get the seller to apply for planning retention immediately and proceed with purchase process once this is running. Delay the closing day until retention (reasonably likely?) is granted. It takes about 12 weeks I think - and your sale process is going to take nearly that (you could tee up your lender, them delaying granting of funds until that time)

Gumbo · 01-09-2015 3:56pm

antiskeptic wrote: »

Get the seller to apply for planning retention immediately and proceed with purchase process once this is running. Delay the closing day until retention (reasonably likely?) is granted. It takes about 12 weeks I think - and your sale process is going to take nearly that (you could tee up your lender, them delaying granting of funds until that time)

+1

If you lodged a retention application tomorrow (although unlikely due to the time required for prep of plans and particulars) , you would have a decision roughly on 28th October.

helimachoptor · 01-09-2015 3:57pm

sale process is done.

We signed nearly 3 weeks ago and were due to get the keys this friday, but when the solicitor went to draw down on the funds they bank said they werent happy with the cert of exemption from the architect.

also this is an executor sale so not sure if that affects if they could apply for PP as they arent the owner

Gumbo · 01-09-2015 3:59pm

helimachoptor wrote: »

sale process is done.

We signed nearly 3 weeks ago and were due to get the keys this friday, but when the solicitor went to draw down on the funds they bank said they werent happy with the cert of exemption from the architect.

So 2 options

Get seller to apply ASAP, and you wait for t to complete.
You buy and take the risk of applying yourself but what happens if it's refused?

mickdw · 01-09-2015 4:02pm

No engineer is going to guarantee that they will issue cert of compliance within 6 months as the outcome is in the hands of the planning authority.
The bank therefore won't release the funds until sorted.

helimachoptor · 01-09-2015 4:07pm

kceire wrote: »

So 2 options

Get seller to apply ASAP, and you wait for t to complete.
You buy and take the risk of applying yourself but what happens if it's refused?

The architect has said that while its in breach of planning the structure is there so long there's no issue and no one will come calling to take it down. it's well past the 7 year term.

I am confused by the Archs reprort (vendors Arch) on one hand it breaches planning however essentially due to the time passed its now compliant

Paraphrasing, but there are plenty of houses on the street that have the same modification some old some new so i think it would be fine, however i cant guarantee it.

For me the risk is we get X off the sale price, however the cost of the work is > X .

I've engaged with the original surveyor to see what his thoughts are around costs and if there's anything else we need to consider

helimachoptor · 01-09-2015 4:08pm

mickdw wrote: »

No engineer is going to guarantee that they will issue cert of compliance within 6 months as the outcome is in the hands of the planning authority.
The bank therefore won't release the funds until sorted.

Cheers, our solicitor seems confident that the bank will agree but who knows tbh

The bank are reviewing the options presented back by the solicitor so its a waiting game to see what the say

Gumbo · 01-09-2015 4:25pm

helimachoptor wrote: »

The architect has said that while its in breach of planning the structure is there so long there's no issue and no one will come calling to take it down. it's well past the 7 year term.

I am confused by the Archs reprort (vendors Arch) on one hand it breaches planning however essentially due to the time passed its now compliant

Paraphrasing, but there are plenty of houses on the street that have the same modification some old some new so i think it would be fine, however i cant guarantee it.

For me the risk is we get X off the sale price, however the cost of the work is > X .

I've engaged with the original surveyor to see what his thoughts are around costs and if there's anything else we need to consider

Basically after the 7 years the house is still in an unauthorised state and no future planning applications can take place on it but as the 7 year term has passed, it is in-enforceable by the panning authority to the current owners.

The bank only care about their investment so they want a clean site in case anything should happen.
The architect is correct in the wording of their certificate as it covers them also and simply stating fact.

helimachoptor · 01-09-2015 4:32pm

kceire wrote: »

Basically after the 7 years the house is still in an unauthorised state and no future planning applications can take place on it but as the 7 year term has passed, it is in-enforceable by the panning authority to the current owners.

The bank only care about their investment so they want a clean site in case anything should happen.
The architect is correct in the wording of their certificate as it covers them also and simply stating fact.

As the new owners potentially could they ask us to rectify it?

Strolling Bones · 01-09-2015 4:38pm

yes

helimachoptor · 01-09-2015 4:41pm

Strolling Bones wrote: »

yes

Cheers SB, i didnt realise that

JonathonS · 02-09-2015 10:10am

Executors can apply for PP.
Don't forget to allow for what the Local Authority may charge as a Development Contribution, depending on size and where the house is located this could be well into 4 figures.

helimachoptor · 02-09-2015 11:36am

JonathonS wrote: »

Executors can apply for PP.
Don't forget to allow for what the Local Authority may charge as a Development Contribution, depending on size and where the house is located this could be well into 4 figures.

Cheers, meeting the Arch tomorrow for he can check out the property, he'll then revert with costs for his work and a schedule for what building work (if any needs to be done) this will then go to the EA and they vendors will need to reduce the price

Angry bird · 02-09-2015 12:25pm

For reasons already outlined in posts above, the seller should be sorting out the planning. However if you as purchaser is going to do it, you will need their written permission included with the planning application. I would also advise to get an airtight agreement that will cover your costs plus reasonable compensation for doing their planning application for them. Also if sale to you does not go through that all costs to you plus larger compensation be paid to you as a burden on the property. Therefore I strongly advise to insist that they sort out the planning, based on Murphy's law that things go wrong even with the best of intentions.

helimachoptor · 03-09-2015 3:08pm

So just back from meeting the architect.

His view is the other architect is wrong.

While the room is at the side of the house its at the rear of the garage, the room also extends past the end of the house so he views the other Arch is using a technicality in the planning regs to say its wrong.

He's going to speak to our solicitor but he said he would be happy to sign it off as exempt

Strolling Bones · 03-09-2015 3:22pm

You must really want the place.

helimachoptor · 03-09-2015 3:36pm

Strolling Bones wrote: »

You must really want the place.

Yep we do, however its a house and after buying one in 2007 thats now worth half what we paid for it we are pretty clinical with this decision.

Basically 2 Archs one saying its compliant and one saying its not. Arch 2 says even though we are taking over the property there is no risk of a state enforced action i.e. demolition of the extension.

We have plans to extend in a few years, Arch 2 says when we are applying for PP for that extension also apply for retention.

Will take the advice of the solicitor and proceed from there

Drift · 03-09-2015 4:10pm

Hi helo,

If you want to be clinical you should make it the vendors issue to solve and be prepared to walk away if he doesn't. Anything else or any other way means you and your family are taking a greater financial risk than you should. You have already been burned once by the finances of a property - I think it would be best to do everything in your power to minimise that happening again. I know it's tough when your heart is set on a place but you are giving the vendor a good price for his property - it's not your job to fix his problems and if it's as minor an issue as people are trying to make you believe then it should be relatively straightforward for the vendor to fix at his own expense.

There's a multitude of things that could go wrong if you do it the way you are suggesting.

If the vendor does it anything that goes wrong is his problem - not yours.

helimachoptor · 03-09-2015 4:21pm

Drift wrote: »

Hi helo,

If you want to be clinical you should make it the vendors issue to solve and be prepared to walk away if he doesn't. Anything else or any other way means you and your family are taking a greater financial risk than you should. You have already been burned once by the finances of a property - I think it would be best to do everything in your power to minimise that happening again. I know it's tough when your heart is set on a place but you are giving the vendor a good price for his property - it's not your job to fix his problems and if it's as minor an issue as people are trying to make you believe then it should be relatively straightforward for the vendor to fix at his own expense.

There's a multitude of things that could go wrong if you do it the way you are suggesting.

If the vendor does it anything that goes wrong is his problem - not yours.

Maybe i'm missing something, but if we have a cert of exemption is that not case closed?

Drift · 03-09-2015 4:34pm

Have you got a "Cert of Exemption" or have you got 3 different oral or written opinions only two of which agree?

If there's any doubt at all now is the time to get the vendor to sort it out. The only people who will confirm that it is actually exempt is the Local Authority Planning Department. If you're the vendor is sure it's exempt get the vendor to supply you with a Section 5 declaration from the Council which will confirm this fact.

helimachoptor · 03-09-2015 5:06pm

Drift wrote: »

Have you got a "Cert of Exemption" or have you got 3 different oral or written opinions only two of which agree?

If there's any doubt at all now is the time to get the vendor to sort it out. The only people who will confirm that it is actually exempt is the Local Authority Planning Department. If you're the vendor is sure it's exempt get the vendor to supply you with a Section 5 declaration from the Council which will confirm this fact.

The Arch that visited the property today will provide a cert of exemption.

2 Archs with different views. one saying its compliant, one saying its not.

Any idea of timelines on the Section 5? The vendors solicitor is on holidays for the next 3 weeks so we can get them to do the leg work during that time, its DLR council if that makes any difference.

Advice Needed re: retrospective planning

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