No christening. Family issues

Whispered · 11-11-2014 3:29am #1

First baby due at the beginning of December and I don't want to have it christened.

Now I'm not against having a belief and I am agnostic rather than athiest. My issue is with the idea of indoctrinating a baby, who knows no better, into a group who at the very least has let the children in its care down time and again.

The idea of going to a catholic school and learning the Catholic religion is not one I'm comfortable with and id rather travel to get my child into a school which isn't run by a religious order. I know a relative who feels similarly to me had her son christened and he is going to a catholic school, so he will fit in. He is in junior infants and she was very upset to hear him recently tell his younger brother that gods light shines from him when he is good.

My husband is going along with my wishes for now, but I know as soon as his family (who are not religious btw) put pressure on he will want to relent for an easy life. Sure everyone does it, why not just go along with it etc. He is worried about the child fitting in, missing out on the "big day" of his or her communion etc.

I gave in with our wedding and had it in a church, this is more important to me. I see it potentially effecting my child's whole life. On the other hand, my husband has as much right to have a say in the decision.

I was wondering how many of you have experienced the same and how you handled it. Also any way I can put it to my husband to help him understand why this is an important decision, not something to just go along with.

Thanks.

brandnewaward · 11-11-2014 3:37am

same as that , when we do have kids. i told the missus that i wouldn't have kids if they had to be baptized. she was worried about the mother and what she'd say and also the school situation , but we've since moved abroad and its not so much an issue

Whispered · 11-11-2014 3:49am

See I'm not sure the school thing is actually still an issue here. I could be wrong of course as I've no experience, but with educate together schools popping up and Ireland becoming more diverse surely not being christened and not being Catholic is becoming more "normal"?

My main challenge is to persuade the hubby that there are good reasons to not do it. My own parents, in particular my father aren't happy about it but I can handle them myself. I will however need his support when it comes to his family. In an ideal world we could say "it's not being done end of story" and it would be dropped. But I know he's gonna end up caught between me saying no and other people pressurising him.

I do not want to be bullied into this, but don't want to effectively bully my husband into not doing it. So a clear cohesive "against" argument so that he's fully comfortable with the decision will be needed

endacl · 11-11-2014 3:52am

I'd wait till the child is 18, and ask him/her what they wish to do regarding their baptism. Seems to me to be the fairest way to deal with the issue.

That's what I'd be telling anybody who didn't have any business having an opinion on the matter.

endacl · 11-11-2014 3:54am

Whispered wrote: »

But I know he's gonna end up caught between me saying no and other people pressurising him.

If he does honestly agree with you, then it's time for him to 'husband up'.

Whispered · 11-11-2014 4:00am

endacl wrote: »

If he does honestly agree with you, then it's time for him to 'husband up'.

I agree but he doesn't have a strong opinion on the matter either way. He's not at all religious, no beliefs what so ever, but would go along with things for a quiet life, where as I would have a more agnostic leaning than him but am very against organised religion as a whole.

bobskii · 11-11-2014 4:11am

I have this exact same dilemma looming . except ill be getting pressure from both sets of parents . my husbands answer is sur why not christen him/her we were all christened .
but I want the child to make up its own mind when it's old enough and not be rail roaded into the Catholic religion 'just because'.

moc moc a moc · 11-11-2014 4:11am

Whispered wrote: »

He's not at all religious, no beliefs what so ever, but would go along with things for a quiet life

You married a mouse, not a man.

Whispered · 11-11-2014 4:13am

moc moc a moc wrote: »

You married a mouse, not a man.

That is very helpful. Thank you.

If you have anything constructive to add, that doesn't involve insulting both me and my husband id be interested to hear it.

Whispered · 11-11-2014 4:16am

bobskii wrote: »

I have this exact same dilemma looming . except ill be getting pressure from both sets of parents . my husbands answer is sur why not christen him/her we were all christened .
but I want the child to make up its own mind when it's old enough and not be rail roaded into the Catholic religion 'just because'.

I have it both sides too, but I find it much easier to let people know when to back off than he does. Haha only yesterday my dad decided that he was going to discuss how I should get rid of my dogs before baby is born. The conversation ended very quickly when I told him that I don't really care what his opinion on it is. The christening conversation was handled in much the same way. I told them, gave my reasons the let them know it was not really up for discussion.

Husband is much less confrontational than I am and more laid back though, it's one of the things I love about him. Most of the time

It's the "just because" that gets me too. If he was religious I'd be happy for him to share that with his child. I'd have to be really. But he's not! I think "just because" is a terrible reason to do it.

Peregrinus · 11-11-2014 4:16am

This is a decision for you and your husband. The feelings of your husband's extended family are a fairly peripheral consideration. Not completely irrelevant, but they shouldn't be driving this.

Having said that, not all of the concerns your husband expresses are about his family's feelings - he is also concerned for the child's welfare; doesn't want him feeling different, left out, etc, etc.

Of course, your child will grow up in a world which is quite different from the world your husband (and no doubt you also) grew up in. As you say, I don't think that, as an unbaptised child, your child will be quite as marked by difference as would have been the case twenty or thirty years ago.

Plus, it might help you to talk to a couple of people who were raised as unbaptised children in Ireland - no doubt there are a few on this board, or at least there are people who can point you in the right direction. They can tell you what the experience was like for them, even twenty or thirty years ago. They may be able to allay some of your husband's concerns. It may n ot have been as bad, even then, as he thinks, and it certainly will be less bad still at present, and in the near future.

Assuming you get your husband is onside, be gentle with your husband's family. Stand your ground, but try to do so in a way that makes it easier for them to accept your decision. It's not their decision but, still, best to minimise any confrontation or bad feelign that results from them sticking their noses in. Explain your feelings about raising your child to make his or her own choice. And consider having a naming/welcoming celebration and perhaps even "godparents" for the child - find another term, obviously - so that the extended family can mark his or her arrival in the way they would want to.

Whispered · 11-11-2014 4:21am

Thank you! That's very helpful.

bobskii · 11-11-2014 4:25am

ah I've had plenty of that too . dogs gotta go,in fairness my father wouldn't suggest it cos he knows the answer he'd get which would be similar to the one you gave!!
I can deal with my own family ,mainly my mum on the religion front as my dad is in no way religious .But my father in law is staunch Catholic and I know that will be a tough one . plus like your oh mine is laid back and chilled but also likes to please his father at all times . I honestly don't know what I'm going to do but every time it's brought up its brushed aside(by hubby) probably to avoid the argument!

Whispered · 11-11-2014 4:30am

Have you looked at schools in your area? Do you have a non religious option?

It's a tough one because at the end of the day you can get it done and then forget about it. It just doesn't feel right though. Neither parent on his side is religious. They'd want it done just because too. It's maddness

Actually I think I will send him a link to this forum. If he browses a bit it might make him have an opinion either way.

bobskii · 11-11-2014 4:37am

my cousin goes to the local school and he's not baptised so I'm presuming it'd b ok. like you I don't mind if I have to travel to get to a school which isn't Catholic run.
I have a feeling my oh is Gonna dig his heels in over this but like you I gave into the church wedding for peace sake but don't want to drag a child into a religion that it will question in years to come.

indigo twist · 11-11-2014 5:13am

I was expecting all sort of arguments with my family over not getting our child baptised, but they have been surprisingly quiet on the issue, thankfully. If I were to announce a christening tomorrow, they would be over the moon - but they've accepted it's just not going to happen. I explained to them that it would be hypocritical of me and disrespectful to their faith for me to stand up in a church and lie about how I was going to raise my son.

Maybe ask your husband to actually read the promises you both would have to make as part of the ceremony, including renewing your own faith. Ask him to consider the fact that he would be admitting that his newborn was born sinful and needs to be cleansed of those sins ... I mean, it's not just a case of dressing the baby up in a pretty white gown and taking some photos and having a party - it's a fairly serious ceremony. And it's signing the child up for life. The child can choose to get baptised at any stage of their life - they can never ever get unbaptised though; once it's done, they are counted as a member of the Catholic population for life.

A naming ceremony is a lovely alternative way to welcome the child without making those promises on his/her behalf. I know of a few people who went for a humanist naming ceremony and were very happy - might be worth looking into - there isn't a huge amount of info on the website, but you'll get contact details of celebrants there. If you have religious family members, you might choose to ask them to say a prayer or a blessing at the ceremony, if you're comfortable with that (not sure if this is allowed at humanist ceremonies, but you could always do your own, get a friend or family to officiate, and make up your own rules!)

If it ends up being a case that your husband is firmly in favour of a Catholic baptism and you're firmly against it - well, it very likely won't be the first or the last time that you disagree when it comes to parenting decisions! In making the decision, I would ask whether this will benefit the child, and how? Would you be acting in his/her best interests? How would you feel if your child turns around in twenty years time and tells you how they wish they hadn't been signed up for this; that they wish you'd left the decision to them? For that matter, how would you feel if they decided in twenty years time that they wanted to be a priest/nun?! How would you cope with a five-year-old or a ten-year-old terrified of hell - it'll be a lot harder to reassure them that it's all fairytales when you signed them up for this religion.

Have you thought about further down the line; communions and confirmations? If you go through with these, your child will go through quite a bit of brainwashing in preparation - it's not just a case of turning up on the day - many priests insist on the whole family attending weekly mass coming up to the event. I don't think I could stand watching my child being brainwashed; I'd find it very hard to listen to them talking about God and heaven and hell, and accepting it all as fact. But it's the path you'd be setting them on. If you give in to the baptism, don't you think the same family pressure will apply when it comes to first confessions and communions and all the rest?

I think it's important to make your decision before the child is born, and be ready to present a united front to your families. Something to consider - I don't know of anyone who regrets not having been baptised as a baby, or who regrets not having had their baby baptised. Because if someone wishes they were baptised, well they can go right ahead and do it, at any age. On the other hand, plenty of people wish they hadn't been baptised. Plenty of parents regret giving in to pressure and doing it to keep the peace. You can never undo it once it's been done. And you'll face the same issues with any future children - be careful about the precedent you set here.

Peregrinus · 11-11-2014 5:16am

bobskii wrote: »

my cousin goes to the local school and he's not baptised so I'm presuming it'd b ok.

Depends. If it's a religious school and if demand for places is high, being baptised can definitely get you up the queue.

bobskii wrote: »

I have a feeling my oh is Gonna dig his heels in over this but like you I gave into the church wedding for peace sake but don't want to drag a child into a religion that it will question in years to come.

Trust me. Whatever beliefs you "drag" the child into it will question in years to come.

Still, best not to drag it into beliefs that you don't actually share.

Whispered · 11-11-2014 5:19am

If I could thank that twice I would indigo. Loads to open up a discussion there. Thanks.

11-11-2014 5:21am

It's YOUR baby, yours and your Husbands. It's YOUR decision. Make that decision now and let it be known. End of story!

brandnewaward · 11-11-2014 5:24am

+1 on the naming ceremony, we are having a humanist wedding year after next with bridgit carlin from the humanist society , she had fantastic ideas for the wedding so we probably would do the naming ceremony with her too. communions and confirmations at school will be tricky for the child but they surely will get over it , just bring em somewhere special that weekend and it'll be outta their minds

bobskii · 11-11-2014 5:52am

indigo om going to print that off . It says exactly what I think myself and why I think that way . Thanks.

lazybones32 · 11-11-2014 9:32am

This is your child, not your family-in-law's child. Your husband needs to take your side more than acquiescing to his parents/kin's request regarding your child. Your voice and opinion should be more important than all others when it comes to your family unit.

I may be a bit blunt, aggressive and lacking in tact when it comes to unwelcome intrusion in my decisions but someone needs to be firm and it seems like your husband isn't going to do that. I'm not trying to insult him or you but I can't understand such passivity.

Hotblack Desiato · 11-11-2014 9:59am

Since the formal defection process was abolished a few years ago, the RCC is the Hotel California of religions, you can check out but you can never leave.

RCC is still secretive over its records of child abuse and still refusing to pay the (little) compensation it agreed to pay. Even if I was religious I wouldn't touch this organisation with a bargepole.

School places won't be an issue unless schools are oversubscribed in your area, even so your child still has a right to a school place and Dept Education can direct a school to admit your child. It just might not be your preferred school though.

Lots of children are not baptised and/or don't take part in sacraments, your child will certainly not be the only one. If it wasn't for the kids of non-believers our local CoI school could well be closed by now.

You have the constitutional right to opt your child out of religious instruction in school, the school may object on the basis of supervision etc. but this is their problem to deal with not yours. It just needs a small amount of flexibility and goodwill on the school's part. Oddly, this doesn't ever seem to be a problem to accommodate when it's muslims, hindus etc. asking to opt out of religious instruction..

The bouncy castle catholics seem to be the worst for wanting other people to conform to what they do (which is, go through the motions) as it prevents them from having to question their own choices and beliefs. People who are more religious aren't usually as keen to make non-believers stand up in a church and tell lies.

magicbastarder · 11-11-2014 10:48am

one analogy to use with the in-laws is to point out to them that in no way would they be trying to pressure you to have the kid baptised as muslim as that is not a religion you follow; so expecting you to baptise it as catholic, another religion you do not follow, is just as absurd.

rainbow kirby · 11-11-2014 10:57am

brandnewaward wrote: »

+1 on the naming ceremony, we are having a humanist wedding year after next with bridgit carlin from the humanist society , she had fantastic ideas for the wedding so we probably would do the naming ceremony with her too.

I would lean in that direction too - having a humanist wedding next year with Tina Storey and if the families want a day out to celebrate a new arrival then the naming ceremony seems like a good plan. The thought of going through a Catholic baptism for any future child of mine makes me feel a bit sick tbh. Thankfully, not living in Ireland makes the school thing a bit easier - only 15 out of 47 primaries in my borough (Islington) are faith schools.

lazygal · 11-11-2014 11:42am

We are lucky in that we were in agreement before we got married that if and when we had children we would not baptize. If our choice was between baptizing solely to secure a school place or homeschooling, I would homeschool. We reasoned that our parents made their choices about how we were raised which, like many a la carte catholics, involved the ceremonies. That was their decision about us when we were under their control. So when we had our children, pretty much like when we were planning our wedding and a church wedding was mentioned, we pointed out that this was not our parents' day, so this child was ours, and while we welcome having extended family around, the big decisions would be made by us and us alone.
I know it bothers my father greatly that we didn't baptize our children and he sees it as a 'just in case' thing to do. But frankly we cannot and will not take hurt feelings of others into account for all our decisions. There are things I'll give leeway on, like the grandparents giving them treats they'd never get at home, small stuff like that I'll suck it up. But on the big things, like how we raise our children and faith formation and indoctrination, only me and my husband get a say on that. I will say that having not had a church wedding we smoothed the path somewhat for baptism questions. I would encourage your husband to think of you and him as a family unit, and the rest of both your families being outside that when it comes to big decisions.

eviltwin · 11-11-2014 12:58pm

I had my first baptised because it was the done thing at the time. By the time number 2 came along all the scandal had happened and I knew I was atheist anyway so I had cut all ties with the church. There was no way number 2 was going to be baptised after that. Yes people were very upset but we'd already had a civil wedding so we'd kinda nailed our colours to the mast at that point so I doubt anyone was really surprised. But it did cause issues for a while. He's almost 5 now though and no one cares, people will get over it and in a few years will have forgotten about it.

As hard as it may be I think its worth riding the storm if it means that much to you. I wanted to raise my child to be an independent free thinker who respects everyone no matter what their background and I don't think an active involvement with the RCC fosters that.

My son is now in school in an ET and growing up without the albatross that is the church around his neck, he's the first child in either of our entire families ever not to be a Catholic and I have to be honest, I feel pretty great knowing that for my little family at least the cycle has ended. He can do what he wants when he gets older but at least we'll know if he does end up joining a church it will be through his own choice and not because it was forced on him.

Whispered · 11-11-2014 1:34pm

Really glad I posted here now, I was somewhat reluctant. I felt a bit like it left us (and in particular my husband) open to insult but you've all been really helpful.

I think I'll send him a link to this thread so he can see that not only is it not unusual in this day and age but that it is actually an important decision.

Thanks!!

lazygal · 11-11-2014 2:00pm

Your child will by no means be the only one not doing religion if that is part of the school they attend. When I got the 'left out' comments, I pointed out that we tell our children all the time that just because 'everyone else' is doing something doesn't mean you can or should do it. I really, really wish my parents had thought more about simply going through the catholic motions with us. Especially since they never really believed any of the teachings anyway. At the time I might have felt sad about not doing communion and confirmation and all that goes with that, but that's not a good enough reason to start indoctrinating an infant IMO.
There are some groups such as Teach Don't Preach that have good resources on navigating the religious school system when the time comes.

Brian Shanahan · 11-11-2014 3:50pm

Whispered wrote: »

I agree but he doesn't have a strong opinion on the matter either way. He's not at all religious, no beliefs what so ever, but would go along with things for a quiet life, where as I would have a more agnostic leaning than him but am very against organised religion as a whole.

By getting your child christened, in the eyes of the church you are making an irrevocable decision for that child (as there is no mechanism for renouncing your christianity within the rcc, and the church will always count them as catholic). If it were me doing the persuading I would strongly emphasise the sheer immorality of making a decision for another in this matter (were it an actual life or death situation, like getting surgery for the child, it would be different), essentially co-opting them into a club without their consent from which they can never leave in the eyes of that club, and from which membership that club will continue to skew the ruling of this country. But I'm a bit of hardarse when it comes to something like this, so it may not be the best advice.

Whispered wrote: »

Have you looked at schools in your area? Do you have a non religious option?

I can answer this one for the whole country. Unless you are willing to pay through the nose for a private education, all schools are required to have a religious component, as departmental rules state in no unclear terms that "faith formation" (i.e. religious indoctrination) is an essential component of a child's education (the mandarins seem to labour under the delusion that for one to be moral one must have religion). ET schools tend to mitigate this harsh bias somewhat, but mostly in a happy-clappy "all religions are good" saccharine kind of way.

Your best bet for a non-religious education in Ireland is to emigrate, unfortunately.

Whispered · 11-11-2014 4:09pm

If I understand the ET schools correctly, do they cover religion from a more cultural PoV? I have no issue with a child learning about different religions, beliefs, cultures etc so long as he or she is not being told they have to believe it too. I could be wrong and will certainly look into it further.

I don't think schools do much to encourage critical thinking and self development in children on a range of issues (kids in uniform, or very young kids learning while sitting at a desk, for example) but at least on the religion part we have a bit more control.

I'm surprised at how strongly I feel about it tbh.

No christening. Family issues

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