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18-05-2013, 22:42   #31
dublinviking
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Posts: 293
While we are talking about the long knives, it is worth exploring the name of this weapon:




Quote:
Old English seax,sax and Old Frisian sax are identical with Old Saxon and Old High German saks,all from a Common Germanic*sahsom froma root*sah,*sag-"tocut" (also insaw,from aPIE root*sek-).The term scramaseax,scramsaxlit."wounding-knife" is sometimes used for disambiguation, even though it is not attested in Old English, but taken from an occurrence of scramasax in Gregory of Tours'History of the Franks.[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seax




So the wiki says it is an old German root *sah,*sag-"to cut and then quickly adds that it all comes from the PIE root sek.


http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Append...-European/sek-


Interestingly enough wiki completely misses to mention Gaelic as a language that has anything to do with Seax or verb sek.
I will now try to fix this and try to expand this etymology with a very interesting word cluster which I found in south Slavic languages and in Irish.


I will start with this citation from a medieval French manuscript:
Quote:
The Gaelic skills of hand-to-hand and their style of fighting was not lost, as a French observer Boullaye le Gouz comments in 1644: "The Irish carry a scquine (scian - knife) or Turkish dagger, which they dart (throw) very adroitly at 15 paces distance; and have this advantage, that if they remain masters of the field of battle there remains no enemy, and if they are routed, they fly in such a manner that it is impossible to catch them. [A common complaint by English Tudor soldiers] I have seen an Irishman with ease accomplish 25 miles a day. They march to battle with the bagpipes instead of fifes, butt hey have few drums and they use the musket and cannon as we do. They are better soldiers abroad than at home."

http://home.earthlink.net/~rggsibiba...gallohist.html


The Irish long knife is called Scean or Scian. What is interesting about this word is that it is just one of a cluster of Irish words with the root sc which all somehow relate to blades, making blades, using blades and consequences of using blades. I will here just list few representative ones; you can consult the dictionary for more:


S(e)caineamh– shingly
S(e)clata– slate
S(e)caineadh-crack, split
S(e)ceallog– chip, thin slice
S(e)cealla– shale, flake
S(e)cablail– chisel work
S(e)caid– husks
S(e)caineach– thin, cracked
S(e)cean,s(e)cian (pronounced shkian) – knife
S(e)cean– crack, split, sever


Now these words, I believe, have potentially root in a stone age. When you look at them they basically describe making of a stone blade from a stone. You get a shingly stone, slate, you chip it, split it until you get a sharp blade. Husks and chips fall off in the process. Then you can use it to cut, split and sever…


From the analysis of the word development from Ogham Irish to modern Irish, we see that the language has lost a lot of vowels. To the above words could have had a vowel between Sc root and this is why I inserted the alternative “(e)” which doesn’t exist in modern Gaelic. We also see insertion of vowels in the south Slavic languages as the words traveled from the Baltic to the Balkans in the early medieval time. In some dialects of the south Slavic languages you can still find the original vowless versions of the words. So I am not sure about the above vowel insertion. Also you will see in related south Slavic words that we find both sk and sek roots.




Here is the corresponding south Slavic word cluster. You will notice that it is a lot bigger and wider than the Irish one, but it covers the same word range needed to describe making of a stone blade from as tone as well as all the metal blades and their usage. The fact that in the south Slavic languages we find all the words connected with the stone blades as well as the metal blades with the same root shouldn't surprise us. It was the Balkans, more precisely within the territory of today’s Serbia that metal blades were produced for the first time in copper, bronze and iron. It is fitting to presume that whoever made these metal blades used the same word s(e)k as the root word for both stone and metal blades. If this is so, what does this tell us about the age of these words?




Školjka– shell. Shells are sharp and could have been what gave people idea to create first blades
Skriljac– slate. This stone can be easily chipped and was used for weapon blades.
Skresati– from kresati. Kresati means to hit one thing with another, so that the hitting thing slides of the side of the thing being hit. The word is used to describe hitting a stone with a stone to chip them or to make fire and for cutting branches of a log, basically to chip or to trim. Skresati means to actually chip a bit of or to cut a brunch off, to separate bits.
Skalja– small thin chips of stone or wood
Sek(sometimes pronounced as sik or sk)– root word meaning to cut but also a blade. Word seći(to cut) comes from sekti.
Sečivo(pronounced sechivo) – blade
Sekira(sikira, skira) – axe
Sekare(škare pronounces shkare) – scissors
Sekia(sekian) – knife. This word is now preserved in Bosnian slang word for knife “ćakija” (sekia). This word can also be deduced from a word škia (pronounced shkia) which is a dinaric dialect word which means a thin hand sliced tobacco.
Sekač.– a one sided blade
Skiljiti– to squint, to make your eyes look like as if they were two cuts.
Skija– a blade on a sled, and later a ski.
Sekutić – front tooth
Usek,zasek – a cut
Sek– a log house where logs, which are also called sek, are connected by interlocking cuts made at their ends.
Seknuti– to strike or hit suddenly
Skratiti– to cut down to cut short
Skrvaviti– to make bloody
Skloca– foldup knife
Škljocati- to make a noise by closing something sharp like teeth or scissors.
Škrgutati– to grind teeth
Škopiti– to castrate, to cut balls off.
Skulj– a castrated ram
Škrip– a cut, a narrow space




This word cluster is possibly based on an onomatopoeic root “sk” which potentially makes it very old. The sound which a blade makes when pulled across something in order to cut it is “sssssssk”. When you cut something off with a sudden hit of blade sound shortens to tsk or tsak. I will leave this here and hopefully someone else will pick it up and cover it in more detail.




What I find is very very interesting is word for scissors. Scissors are a complicated implement and who ever made them first gave them the name that stuck among the people who used them first, which probably related people who were living close together.


In Russian and all central and east Slavic languages (including Bulgarian and Macedonian) it is a form of word nožnice.
In Scandinavian languages it is some form of saks.
In French English and Irish it is ciseaux, scissors, siosúr.
In Greek and Latin it is ψαλίδιand axicia
In Italian it is forbici.


But in Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian, Slovenian, Dutch, German and Latvian it is škare,schaar, schere, š??res…So what is the connection between these people? Is south Baltic the link again, more precisely Elbe valley?


We know that the root word is sekare which comes from south Slavic sek root. Because when we have a look at the word for cut and blade in all these languages we get this:


To cut


German - geschnitten (is this actually sekniten)
Dutch– snijden (this is probably from the above root sekniten)
Latvian– samazin?t
Serbian,Croatian, Bosnian, Slovenian – Seći(Sekti)


Blade


German– Schneide (Sekniede?), Klinge
Dutch– mes
Latvian– asmens


As part of this analysis I have to mention one more word: to slaughter,to kill a living thing using a sharp blade. We need to investigate this word because after all, blades are made for slaughter more than anything else.




In south Slavic languages a word for to slaughter or related to slaughter are:


Klati– to slaughter
Klanje– slaughter
Klan– being slaughtered
Koljač– the one that slaughters
Saklan(zaklan) – slaughtered
Kljakav– someone who is missing a limb due to its being cut off.
Kljuse– a horse which is too old to be useful and which needs to be slaughtered, killed (kolje se)
Kljusav– ready to be slaughtered, killed
Koljivo– a ceremonial meal made from cooked wheat eaten at Serbian “Slava”celebration. Slava is today a family patron saint day celebration,but originally it was a clan ancestral cult celebration. Each family had its own deity as a clan progenitor, and that deity was celebrated as the father of the clan. Originally human sacrifices were made even down to medieval times and maybe even later. In case of Dabog or Hromi Daba, the main deity of all Serbian clans, even first born children were sacrificed. Animals such as lambs, goats and bulls were also sacrificed and are still to this day. Animal sacrifices and particularly human sacrifices sharply distinguished Serbs and other western Slavs from eastern Slavs. During slavisation of the Serbs,blood sacrifices were replaced with cooked wheat but the name remained: koljivo (what was slaughtered as a sacrifice).


Word klati is an onomatopoeic word based on the root “kl” which potentially makes it very old as well.


“kl”or “gl” is, I believe, one of the oldest word roots which is related to things coming out of a throat. It is particularly a sound of choking of gasping for air while something liquid is filling your throat and lungs, like blood when an animal or a person is being slaughtered. If you have ever slaughtered anything you will not easily forget that sound. The sound is kljkljklj….


In south Slavic languages we have this word


Krkljati– gargle
Kuljati– to gush, as in puking or bleeding when a throat is slit, or bleeding when a body is sliced open with a blade, or a head crushed with an axe blow.
kljukati - continuously stuff something down someones throat.

It is interesting how much this klati sound like kill. In wiktionary we find this as etymology of kill:




Quote:
From Middle English killen,kyllen,cüllen(“to strike, beat, cut”),possibly a variant of Old English cwellan(“tokill, murder, execute”)(seequell),or from Old Norse kolla(“tohit on the head, harm”)(compare Norwegian kylla(“topoll”),Middle Dutch kollen(“toknock down”),Icelandic kollur(“top,head”),see coll,cole).Compare also Middle Dutch killen,kellen(“tokill”),Middle Low German killen(“toache strongly, to cause one great pain”),Middle High German kellen. Cognate with Albanian qëlloj(“tohit, strike”).

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kill


I think these words are related, but I will leave this to others to investigate further.




Now we also have word klanac which means a gorge, a deep narrow valley out of which a river flows. These valleys are deep cuts in hills and mountains which look as if they were made by a gods using giant blade. Out of these earth wounds, water, the blood of the earth gushes out.
This is incredible descriptive naming of geological formations, as klanac does also resemble a deep cut made by a blade in a flesh, especially in a neck while slaughtering out of which blood starts gushing out.If you have ever slaughtered anything or anyone you will know what I am talking about.
So klanac is a place where mother earth has been slaughtered. How old could this word possible be?


Now in Gaelic we have this word: Glen. The word is Goidelic : gleann in Scottish and Irish Gaelic, glion in Manx.In Manx,glan is also to be found meaning glen. It is cognate with Welsh glynl.


Wiktionary says that it means: A secluded and narrow valley;a dale;a depression between hills.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glen
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/glen


we also have word claon: inclining, squint, oblique, Irish claon,Old Irish clóin:*kloino-;Latincli@-no,accli@-nis,leaning, English incline;Greek@Gklínw(@Gilong),incline; English lean;Lithuanian szlë/ti,incline; Sanskrit çrayati(do.).


So here we have a link between to slaughter, to cut a slit, to squint,klanac (glen, gorge)…


Also it is interesting that in Germanic languages the word for slaughter has the same root (s-kl) as in south Slavic languages (Schlachten,s(e)klahten), but in east Slavic and central Slavic languages it is based on the root “rez” which also means to cut in Slavic languages. This again shows the affinity of south Slavic languages with Germanic languages. This also shows that south Slavic languages kept their old word for cut (sek) and also absorbed the new Slavic word (rez).

Last edited by dublinviking; 18-05-2013 at 23:32.
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18-05-2013, 23:12   #32
dublinviking
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The title of this post was Long beards, long ears, long blades and long spears. We have seen long beards, long blades and long spears. What about long ears? Let’s go back to Labraid Loingsech.


Quote:
The story is told, similar to a legend of the Greek king Midas,that Labraid had horse's ears, something he was concerned to keep quiet. He had his hair cut once a year, and the barber, who was chosen by lot, was immediately put to death. A widow, hearing that her only son had been chosen to cut the king's hair, begged the king not to kill him, and he agreed, so long as the barber kept his secret. The burden of the secret was so heavy that the barber fell ill. A druid advised him to go to a crossroads and tell his secret to the first tree he came to, and he would be relieved of his burden and be well again. He told the secret to a large willow.Soon after this, however, Craiftine broke his harp, and made a new one out of the very willow the barber had told his secret to.Whenever he played it, the harp sang "Labraid Lorc has horse'sears". Labraid repented of all the barbers he had put to death and admitted his secret.[4]
This is a very interesting story and quite unusual. Let’s see if we can find similar legends anywhere else:
1. Midas(Greece).
2. Tarkasnawa (luw."ass") - also known as the false reading Tarkondemos-was a king of the Hittite vassal state Mira in the west of present-day Turkey. He probably reigned in the time of the Great King Tudhalija IV in the 13 th Century BC
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarkasnawa
http://www.britishmuseum.org/researc...30426&partId=1
3. The Goat's Ears of the Emperor Trojan (Serbia).
4. The King with the Horse's Ears (Ireland), Laigin story about Labhradh Loingseach.
5. March's Ears (Wales). This story comes from Ll?n peninsula. Now this is the same Lleynw hose name is thought to be of Irish origin, and to have the same root –Laigin (Laighin) in Irish –as the word Leinster and which also occurs in Porth Dinllaen on the north coast and which was a Laigin colony in wales.
6. In pre-Islamic legend of Central Asia, the king of the Ossounes of the Yenisei basin had donkey's ears. He would hide them, and order each of his barbers killed to hide his secret. The last barber among his people was counselled to whisper the heavy secret into a well after sundown, but he didn't cover the well afterwards. The well water rose and flooded the kingdom, creating the waters ofLakeIssyk-Kul. (Based on available data the bronze age civilsation thatexisted here dates to 2500 years ago.)
http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20071227/94372640.html
http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/type0782.html

Lets see what we can find about these stories and see if we can propose some chronology and direction of spreading of this unusual myth:
Quote:
Sarah Morris demonstrated (Morris 2004) that donkeys' ears (my comment:donkeys or goats ears???) were a Bronze Age royal attribute, borne by King Tarkasnawa (Greek Tarkondemos) ofMira,on a seal inscribed in both Hittite cuneiform and Luwian hieroglyphs:in this connection, the myth would appear for Greeks, to justify the exotic attribute.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midas


Let’s see what we can find about king Midas:
Quote:
The King Midas who ruled Phrygia in the late 8th century BC is known from Greek and Assyrian sources. According to the former, he married a Greek princess, Damodice daughter of Agamemnon of Cyme, Aeolia, and traded extensively with the Greeks. Some historians believe this Midas donated the throne that Herodotus says was offered to the Oracleof Delphi by"Midas son of Gordias" (see above). Assyrian tablets from the reign of SargonII record attacks by a "Mita", king of the Mushki,against Assyria's eastern Anatolian provinces. Some historians believe Assyrian texts called this Midas king of the "Mushki"because he had subjected the eastern Anatolian people of that name and incorporated them into his army. Greek sources including Strabo[23] say that Midas committed suicide by drinking bulls' blood during an attack by the Cimmerians, which Eusebius dated to around 695 BC and JuliusAfricanus to around 676 BC. Archeology has confirmed that Gordium was destroyed and burned around that time.[24]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midas

Now when we look at who Mushki are we get this:
Quote:
The Mushki (Muški; Georgian:Mushkebi) were an Iron Age people of Anatolia, known from Assyrian sources.They do not appear in Hittite records.[1]Several authors have connected them with the Moschoi (Μόσχοι)of Greek sources and the Georgian tribe of the Meskhi. Josephus Flavius identified the Moschoi with the Biblical Meshech. Two different groups are called Muški in the Assyrian sources (Diakonoff 1984:115),one from the 12th to 9th centuries, located near the confluence of the Arsanias and the Euphrates ("Eastern Mushki"), and the other in the 8th to 7th centuries, located in Cappadocia and Cilicia ("Western Mushki"). Assyrian sources identify the Western Mushki with the Phrygians,while Greek sources clearly distinguish between Phrygians and Moschoi.
Georgian historians believe the Massagetae is another name for the Mushki, in contradiction to prevailing opinion which places the Massagetae in Central Asia. They base their argument on statements by Herodotus that the Massagetae lived "beyond the Araxes"(1.201) and that "after crossing the Araxes, Cyrus was sleeping on the territory of the Massagetae" (1.209), while rejecting as a mistake a third statement by Herodotus that "on the west the Caspian is bounded by the Caucasus; eastwards lies an immense tract of flat country ... the greater part of this region is occupied by the Massagetae" (1.204). Georgian historians also point to the similarity of the names Massagetae, Mtskheta and Meskheti, and to the lack of archeological evidence for a Massagetae state in Central Asia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushki
Quote:
The ancient tribes of Meskhi (or Moschi) and Mosiniks are the first known inhabitants of the area of modern Samtskhe-Javakheti region. Some scholars credit the Mosiniks (or Mossynoeci) with the invention of iron metallurgy. From the 2nd millennium to the 4th century BC, Meskheti was believed to be part of the Kingdom of Diaokhi, in the 4th century BC to the 6th century AD part of the Kingdom of Iberia.From the 10th to the 15th century it was part of the united Georgian Kingdom.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meskhetians

This is very interesting about the Georgian Mushki. Some scholars are crediting these Mushki with the invention of Iron. This fits perfectly with the expansion of the Iron age people from the Balkans who under the name Mushki spread around the world conquering countries all the way to central Asia.


Now this is very interesting. King Mita (still a very common name in the Balkans among the south Slavs and Bulgarians also found in form Mitar and Mitra) was the leader of Muški Mushki an Iron Age people of Anatolia…I couldn’t find any proposed etymology of Muški,so I will propose my own: in Serbian and other Slavic languages, word for man is muž. But muž can also mean husband and lord. Word for manly is Muški,but Muški can also mean men, or lords…when we look at the time of his reign,we see that it falls into 8th century BC well after the iron was invented in the Balkans. So was Mita leading the Mushki (men) from Balkans? He was the king of Phrygians. Is there any indication that these Phrygian Mushki could be from the Balkans? There is:
Quote:
Inscriptions found at Gordium make clear that Phrygians spoke an Indo-European language with at least some vocabulary similar to Greek,and clearly not belonging to the family of Anatolian languages spoken by most of Phrygia's neighbors.[1][2]According to one of the so-called Homeric Hymns, the Phrygian language was not mutually intelligible with Trojan.[3]
According to ancient tradition among Greek historians, the Phrygians anciently migrated to Anatolia from the Balkans. Herodotus says the Phrygians were called Bryges when they lived in Europe.[4]He and other Greek writers also recorded legends about King Midas that associated him with or put his origin in Macedonia;Herodotus for example says a wild rose garden in Macedonia was named after Midas.[5] The Phrygians were also connected by some classical writers to the Mygdones, the name of two groups of people, one of which lived in northern Macedonia and another in Mysia.Likewise the Phrygians have been identified with the Bebryces,a people said to have warred with Mysia before theTrojan War and who had a king named Mygdon at roughly the same time as the Phrygians were said to have had a king named Mygdon. The classical historian Strabo groups Phrygians, Mygdones, Mysians, Bebryces and Bithynians together as peoples that migrated to Anatolia from the Balkans.[6]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygia

So if Phrygians came from the north Balkans, then possibly the Serbian story about King Trajan and his goat ears could be the original myth from which all the other ones have been developed. The story about king Trajan comes from the area of the Djerdap gorge, the biggest gorge in Europe, the place where mighty Danube, managed to burst through Carpathian mountains and thus empty the ancient Pannonian sea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonian_Sea

Thus Danube was a sea and a river, the ancient Oceanos potamos of the old Gaia. The Djerdap gorge is the place where we find the most advanced Mesolithic civilization,Lepenski Vir.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lepenski_Vir

This is also the area where we later find Vinca civilization which invented Copper and Bronze 7000 years ago. Just to the south is Hisar, where first iron and industrial iron production sites were found that date to 1400 BC, much earlier than the Hittite finds. We know that the Vinca copper culture spread from the Balkans to Anatolia. I believe that so far still unidentified(proto Illyrian) Iron culture also spread from the Balkans to Anatolia. And they took with them their story about king Trajan and his long Ears. I know that some people will argue that the story is originally Phrygian and that it originates in Anatolia. I would like to ask then, how is it possible that such an obscure story be adopted by the Irish, Serbs and Ossounes,but no one else in between, particularly in greco roman Europe??? Do the Irish and the Serbs have weird taste for legends, and have somehow picked this weird story and made it an obligatory material for the around the fire story telling time, until it became a folk legend?It makes no sense. The only logical explanation is that the story spread from the Carpathian region of Serbia. And then fallowed the Frigians. Now who were these Phrygians? This is what etymology dictionary says:
Quote:
Phrygian- "native of Phrygia,"region in ancient Asia Minor; Phrygian mode in ancient Greek music theory was held to be "of a warlike character."
Is it possible that original Phrygia was not in Asia Minor, but in the north east Balkans, and that the name was brought to Asia Minor during the Phrygian Migrations? This happens all the time. Migrants give their new countries and towns the names from the “old country”. Is it possible that there are many Phrygias? Like Friesland,the area from Jutland to the west, from which our friends Laigin came from? Or this mysterious Island also called Frisland:
Quote:
Frisland,also called Frischlant, Friesland, Freezeland, Frislandia,or Fixland,is a mythical island that appeared on virtually all of the maps of the North Atlantic from the 1560s through the 1660s. It is not to be confused with the similarly named Friesland in the Netherlands.
It originally referred to Iceland ("Freezeland"),but after the Zeno Map (1558)placed it as an entirely separate island south (or occasionally south-west) of Iceland, it appeared that way on maps for the next 100 years. Its existence was given currency in manuscript maps of the 1560s by the Maggiolo family of Genoa and was accepted by Mercator and Jodocus Hondius. Some early maps by Willem Blaeu,such as his 1617 map of Europe, omit it, but it reappears on his 1630 world map as one of many islands shown off the eastern coast of Labrador which was then believed to extend to within a few hundred miles of Scotland. Among its last appearances is in a 1652 world map by Visscher,[contradiction] largely copied from that of Blaeu.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frisland

Is this Frisland island actually Ireland of the Laigin?

Frisland was shown as a roughly rectangular island with three triangular promontories on its western coast.

Here is the picture of Frisland island:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Frisland_Mercator.jpg


Here is map of Ireland:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Keltoi_Tribes.PNG

Do you see anything similar?Interesting in any case...


Now in England and Ireland we find Brigantes.

Is it possible that Phrygians, Frisians and Brigantes are the same People? I mean how many people are called anything similar? And isn't is interesting that it is exactly these pople that have preserved the story of the king with long ears, which originally came from the old Phrygia in the Balkans?

And what could the name of this nation mean? Is it possible that Phrygians were actually Brigians? In one of the south Slavic dialects the word for a man made hill is Brig. Do you remember the kingdom of Brega, the kingdom of tumuluses in Ireland? Do you remember Tabor Breg, the main tumulus center of Ireland? Are Brigi actually Bregi? Are Brigantes actually Bregantes?Are Phrigians actually Brigians actually Bregians people of the Breg, Tumulus?

By the way the name Trajan is still used in eastern Serbia as a personal name. And the story about king Trajan's ears is not the only story about king Trajan. There is another one in which the king Trojan, the king of some old city located somewhere in Serbia, goes every night across river Danube, where he visits his mistress. But he has to make sure to return back before the sunrises, or else he will melt.

http://mirjanadetelic.com/leksikon/g...&slovo=T&str=1

We find very similar legend in Russia about the Slavic god Hors:
Quote:
Vseslav the prince judged men; as prince, he ruled towns; but at night he prowled in the guise of a wolf. From Kiev, prowling, he reached,before the cocks crew, Tmutorokan. The path of great Hors, as a wolf,prowling, he crossed.
In other words, prince Vseslav reached Tmutorokan before dawn, thus crossing the path of Hors, the Sun. In the mythical view of the world, the Sun has to pass through the underworld during the night tor each the eastern horizon by the dawn. This, and the fact that prince Vseslav is transformed into a wolf during the night, while "crossing the path of Hors", draws a very interesting parallel with the Serbian Dabog, who, as stated already, was believed to be a lame"wolf shepherd" who rules over the underworld. Of particular interest is the fact that Serbian folk accounts describe him as being lame; lameness was a standing attribute of Greek Hephaestus, whom, as we have seen, the Hypatian Codex compared with Slavic smith-god Svarog, father of Dažbog. (In fact, most of Indo-European smith-gods were lame; the reason for this was most likely arsenicosis,low levels of arsenic poisoning,resulting in lameness and skin cancers.Arsenic was added to bronze to harden it and most smiths of the Bronze Age would have suffered from chronic workplace poisoning.) Serbian Dabog, being lord of underworld, was also associated with precious metals, and sometimes was said to have a silver beard.
So here we have two stories with the same theme. One story is about Dabog, Hromi Daba,Crom Dubh, The father and the king ancestral king of the Serbs and the another is about king Trojan? Are these two characters one and the same?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Da%C5%BEbog


Lets see if we can find out what name Trajan means. We can find the answer in Irish:

Here is another interesting word cluster from Irish language:

tré- triad - trojstvo
tréad - flock, heard, congregation - stado,pastva
tréadach - pastoral - cobanski, nomadski
tréadai -shepard, pastor - cobanin, pastor
tréadaioch - hearding -skupljati uterivati stado
treabhcas - tribe - pleme
treabhann -tribune, leader - tribun, lider, bodja
treablaht - household,family - domacinstvo, porodica
treabh - plough - plug
treibh -house, homestead, tribe, race - kuca, domacinstvo, pleme, rasa
trea- spear - koplje
trean - warior- ratnik. So Trean or Trajan is awarrior.
treas- battle - bitka
treasair - conquer - osvojiti
treis - strong,in power - jak, na vlasti
triath - lord, prince - gospodar, princ


This is an incredibly important cluster. I have never seen any other word group that describes iron age society in a better way. And it shows us that Trean or Trojan means warrior. So Is Trea Treas, or Troja, Troas the land of warriors? And if so was the original Troja in the Balkans in the second millennium BC and that Troas in Anatolia is the second Troja ? I think that there are things that point to exactly that.

We know that Hittites, Phrygians and ancient people of the iron age Balkans built tumuluses. Serbian historian Pesic, who first proposed the idea of the Vinca script, and Russian paleography experts have discovered an ancient monogram in Vinca material which was also found in Sarmatian material. The monogram was identified as the symbol of an ancient Pelasgian deity Domatrios, the oldest male deity of Europe. (I would be very grateful to anyone for more material on Domatrios, as i could not find anything on the net). Pesic says that that the meaning of the name of this deity is unclear…

http://www.srpskadijaspora.info/vest.asp?id=4917

Let’s go back to Irish and see if it can help:

dumha– tumulus. In Slavic languages dumati means to think but also to hold meetings. In Russian duma is parliament, and we know from Irish legends, that parliaments were held on top of tumuluses.

domatrios= duma triath (tré)= lord (triad, trinity) of the tumulus…
This brigns us straight back to Ireland and deity Crom Dubh whose one of the names is the head of the mound (tumulus) or lord of the mound(tumulus). And here is the head which is said to represent Crom Dubh.It is the trefaced stone idol of Triglav:


http://www.museum.ie/en/list/artefac...e-09a6a825e141


By the way there are several mountains in the Balkans named Trojan. Is it because Trojan was the same as Triglav?

There is also a folk dance in Serbia called trojanac.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0uNU7s38oQ



One last thing. The area of the eastern Serbia from which the story of king Trajan's long ears is called Tribalian planes.
Quote:
Triballian Plains, Tribalia or Lower Timok is the southern territory of the Timočka Krajina, between Yantra river and Morava river.Its name is derived from the Paleo-Balkan tribe of Triballi who lived in the region.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triballi

Welcome to the rabbit hole…

Last edited by dublinviking; 19-05-2013 at 09:33.
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21-05-2013, 16:48   #33
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While we are talking about same people appearing in multiple places at different times, and while we are talking about Mushki (Or Bregi), here is another tribe which seems to be fallowing them around all the way to Ireland: Iberians or Iverians or Iverni.

In his book "The origin of the Irish race" Mallory expressed skepticism regarding the book if invasions and as an example of how fanciful it is it quoted the part which tells us how the Nemedians sailed from the Caspian Sea all the way to Ireland. Mallory says that this being impossible, the chapter is and example of a later construction which was composed to link the Irish to Scythians and ultimately Christianity. In my opinion this exact chapter certifies that the book of Invasions was compiled from actual old histories. It was later doctored to suit changing ethnic, political and religious needs, but the original material was not an invention but a true description of events that actually happened.

It is very easy to sale from Caspian Sea to Ireland. You have to use the old Volga trading route up to the Baltic and then from the Baltic sea you follow the old Atlantean trading route down to Ireland and further down to Iberian peninsula. The old Caspian Sea - Baltic sea - Ireland trading route was last used by Varangians in the medieval time. I find it very interesting that in Gaelic texts there are so many references to Varangians, which according to the official history should never have set foot in Ireland...

Here you have a text about the Volga trade route:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volga_trade_route

What i find very interesting is that along this trade route we find Iberians in Spain, Iverni or Iberni in Ireland and Iberians at the other end of the trade route in the area between the Black and Caspian sea.

Quote:
Iberia (Georgian — იბერია, Latin: Iberia and Greek: Ἰβηρία), also known as Iveria (Georgian: ივერია), was a name given by the ancient Greeks and Romans to the ancient Georgian kingdom of Kartli[1] (4th century BC – 5th century AD), corresponding roughly to the eastern and southern parts of the present day Georgia.[2][3]

The area was inhabited in earliest times by several relative tribes of Tibareni, Mushki, Saspers, Gugars, Diaokhi, etc., collectively called Iberians (the Eastern Iberians) by ancient Greek (Herodotus, Strabo, etc.) and Roman authors. Iberians called their country Kartli after a mythic chief, Kartlos. One of the Iberian tribes of Mtskheta (the future capital of the Iberian kingdom) dominated the early Kingdom. The Mtskheta tribe was later ruled by a prince locally known as mamasakhlisi (“the father of the household” in Georgian).

The similarity of the name with the old inhabitants of the Iberian peninsula, the 'Western' Iberians, has led to an idea of ethnogenetical kinship between them and the people of Caucasian Iberia (called the 'Eastern' Iberians).
It has been advocated by various ancient and medieval authors, although they differed in approach to the problem of the initial place of their origin. The theory seems to have been popular in medieval Georgia. The prominent Georgian religious writer Giorgi Mthatzmindeli (George of Mt Athos) (1009–1065) writes about the wish of certain Georgian nobles to travel to the Iberian peninsula and visit the local Georgians of the West, as he called them
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Iberia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Iberians

So the at the beginning of the the Caspian - Atlantic trade rout we find Iberians ruled by Mushki. And Georgian old chronicles talk about both Atlantean Iberians and Caspian Iberians being of the same origin.

Now this Caspian Iberian culture is said to be most likely a mix of indigenous culture and (Indo) European culture.

Quote:
The area was inhabited in earliest times by several related tribes in Kura-Araxes culture, collectively called Iberians (the Eastern Iberians) by ancient authors. Locals called their country Kartli after a mythic chief, Kartlos. The Moschi, mentioned by various classic historians, and their possible descendants, the Saspers (who were mentioned by Herodotus), may have played a crucial role in the consolidation of the tribes inhabiting the area. The Moschi had moved slowly to the northeast forming settlements as they traveled. The chief of these was Mtskheta, the future capital of the Iberian kingdom. The Mtskheta tribe was later ruled by a principal locally known as mamasakhlisi (“the father of the household” in Georgian). The medieval Georgian source Moktsevai Kartlisai (“Conversion of Kartli”) also speaks about Azo and his people, who came from Arian-Kartli – the initial home of the proto-Iberians, which had been under Achaemenid rule until the fall of the Persian Empire – to settle on the site where Mtskheta was to be founded. Another Georgian chronicle Kartlis Tskhovreba (“History of Kartli”) claims Azo to be an officer of Alexander’s, who massacred a local ruling family and conquered the area, until being defeated at the end of the 4th century BC by Prince Pharnavaz, who was at that time a local chief.
The story of Alexander’s invasion of Kartli, although entirely fictional, nevertheless reflects the establishment of Georgian monarchy in the Hellenistic period and the desire of later Georgian literati to connect this event to the celebrated conqueror.[7]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Iberia

Quote:
Arian Kartli (Aryan-Kartli; Georgian: არიან-ქართლი) was a country claimed by the medieval Georgian chronicle "The Conversion of Kartli" (მოქცევაჲ ქართლისაჲ, mokc’evay k’art’lisay) to be the earlier homeland of the Georgians of Kartli (Iberia, central and eastern Georgia).
The Georgian Chronicles relate the apocryphal story of Alexander the Great’s campaign into inner Georgia. Alexander reportedly brought Azoy (Azo), the son of the unnamed "king of Arian-Kartli", together with followers, to Mtskheta, principal city of Kartli, and charged him with the administration of Kartli in his absence. The 11th-century Georgian monk Arsen, the author of metaphrastical reduction of "The life of St. Nino" and tutor of King David IV of Georgia, comments on this passage: "We, Georgians, are descendants of the newcomers from Arian-Kartli, we speak their language and all the kings of Kartli are descendents of their kings".[1]
The identification of a polity medieval Georgian writers called Arian Kartli remains problematic. It seems to have preceded the Near Eastern conquests of Alexander the Great, but the precise location of this "kingdom", the date of its foundation, and the identity of its rulers cannot be determined by means of surviving documentary evidence. The word "Aryan" (Noble) comes from the ancient Indian language called Sanskrit suggesting the connection to Indo-Aryans. (Arian Kartli/Aryan Kartli) and Classical sources scholars have inferred that this land lay within the orbit of Achaemenid Empire. Herodotus' list of the Achaemenid provinces, which places the proto-Georgian tribes within the 13th and 19th satrapies, is significant in this regard.[2] These territories partially correspond to the historical Georgian southwest where a number of Georgian scholars, notably Giorgi Melikishvili, tend to place Aryan Kartli.
The early Georgian kingdom of Kartli/Iberia, which clearly emerges in historical accounts of Hellenistic period, seems to have shared the Iranian bonds of Arian Kartli.[2] Cyril Toumanoff equates the region with the Aranē (Greek: ‘Αράνη) of Ptolemy (V.6.18) and the Harrana of the Hittites.[3]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arian-Kartli

So where is this Arian land from which the future rulers of Iberians came and who were they? I propose Balkans and the Vincans during the copper and bronze age of the fourth and third millennium BC. Then Mushki the Iron age Balkan people during the early part of the first millennium BC.

The Caspian Iberians are linked to Kura–Araxes culture.

Quote:
The Kura–Araxes culture or the early trans-Caucasian culture (Armenian: Քուռ-Արաքսի մշակույթ, Georgian: მტკვარ-არაქსის კულტურა), was a civilization that existed from 3400 BC until about 2000 BC,[1] which has traditionally been regarded as the date of its end, but it may have disappeared as early as 2600 or 2700 BC.[2] The earliest evidence for this culture is found on the Ararat plain; thence it spread to Georgia by 3000 BC (but never reaching Colchis[3]), and during the next millennium it proceeded westward to the Erzurum plain, southwest to Cilicia, and to the southeast into an area below the Urmia basin and Lake Van, and finally down to the borders of present day Syria. Altogether, the early Trans-Caucasian culture, at its greatest spread, enveloped a vast area approximately 1,000 km by 500 km.[4]


Economy

The economy was based on farming and livestock-raising (especially of cattle and sheep).[8] They grew grain and various orchard crops, and are known to have used implements to make flour. They raised cattle, sheep, goats, dogs, and in its later phases, horses (introduced around 3000 BCE, probably by Indo-European speaking tribes from the North).[8]
There is evidence of trade with Mesopotamia, as well as Asia Minor.[8] It is, however, considered above all to be indigenous to the Caucasus, and its major variants characterized (according to Caucasus historian Amjad Jaimoukha) later major cultures in the region.[8]
Metallurgy


The extent of the Kuro-Araxes culture (light shading) shown in relation to subsequent cultures in the area, such as Urartu (dark shading).
In its earliest phase, metal was scant, but it would later display "a precocious metallurgical development which strongly influenced surrounding regions".[9] They worked copper, arsenic, silver, gold,[3] tin, and bronze.[7]
Their metal goods were widely distributed, recorded in the Volga, Dnieper and Don-Donets systems in the north, into Syria and Palestine in the south, and west into Anatolia.


Culture

The culture is closely linked to the approximately contemporaneous Maykop culture of Transcaucasia. As Amjad Jaimoukha puts it,
The Kura-Araxes culture was contiguous, and had mutual influences, with the Maikop culture in the Northwest Caucasus. According to E.I.Krupnov (1969:77), there were elements of the Maikop culture in the early memorials of Chechnya and Ingushetia in the Meken and Bamut kurgans and in Lugovoe in Serzhen-Yurt. Similarities between some features and objects of the Maikop and Kura-Araxes cultures, such as large square graves, the bold-relief curvilinear ornamentation of pottery, ochre-coloured ceramics, earthen hearth props with horn projections, flint arrowheads, stone axes and copper pitchforks are indicative of a cultural unity that pervaded the Caucasus in the Neolithic Age.[11]
Inhumation practices are mixed. Flat graves are found, but so are substantial kurgan burials, the latter of which may be surrounded by cromlechs. This points to a heterogeneous ethno-linguistic population (see section below).[citation needed] Late in the history of this culture, its people built kurgans of greatly varying sizes, containing greatly varying amounts and types of metalwork, with larger, wealthier kurgans surrounded by smaller kurgans containing less wealth.[12] This trend suggests the eventual emergence of a marked social hierarchy.[12] Their practice of storing relatively great wealth in burial kurgans was probably a cultural influence from the more ancient civilizations of the Fertile Crescent to the south.[13]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kura-Araxes_culture

So we see that Kura-Araxes culture traded along the same Volga trading route and along other rivers in the area. This suggests that they used boats for transport. They also traded with Mesopotamia and Asia minor both areas where we find Vinca culture inspired new civilizations at the same time.

Also the burrial practices are showing us that the population was mixed and that the elite was burried in Curgans (tumuluses, bregs) the same like all the other cultures somehow related to Ireland and the Balkans. But this is the most interesting: "substantial kurgan burials were in some cases surrounded by cromlechs"

What is a Cromlech?

Quote:
Cromlech is a Brythonic word (Breton/Cornish/Welsh) used to describe prehistoric megalithic structures, where crom means "bent" or "curved" and llech means "slab" or "flagstone".[1] The term is now virtually obsolete in archaeology, but remains in use as a colloquial term for two different types of megalithic monument.
In English it usually refers to dolmens, the remains of prehistoric stone chamber tombs.[2] However, it is widely used in French and Spanish to describe stone circles. Confusingly, some English-speaking archaeologists, such as Aubrey Burl, use this second meaning for cromlech in English too.[3]
In addition, the term is occasionally used to describe more complex examples of megalithic architecture, such as the Almendres Cromlech in Portugal.[4]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cromlech
http://www.libraryireland.com/Antiquities/I-I.php

Now half way between Iberia in the east and Iberia in the west we find Mecklenburg-Vorpommern or as it was once known as Pomerania or Pomorje, the land of Slavic sea pirates and possible land of Fomori. And what do we find there?

Quote:
In the area of present-day Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, Germany, up to 5,000 megalith tombs were erected as burial sites by people of the Neolithic Funnelbeaker (TRB) culture. More than 1,000 of them are preserved today and protected by law. Though varying in style and age, megalith structures are common in Western Europe, with those in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern belonging to the youngest and easternmost—further east, in the modern West Pomeranian Voivodeship of Poland, monuments erected by the TRB people did not include lithic structures, while they do in the south (Brandenburg), west (Lower Saxony and Schleswig-Holstein) and north (Denmark).

The megaliths in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern were erected as burial sites in the Neolithic, by the bearers of the Funnelbeaker (TRB) culture,[1][2] between 3,500 and 3,200 BC.[3] Initially, the TRB people buried their dead in pits, often covered with mounds of clay.[2] Later, they erected dolmens for this purpose,[2] but also continued the use of flat graves.[1] All megaliths were erected during a relatively short time period, spanning about 200 years or about seven generations, with the oldest ones dating to phase C of the Early Neolithic, while most were built in the beginning of the Middle Neolithic.[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megalit...urg-Vorpommern


What happened in Pomerania? Is this the place where Vinca culture spreading from the Balkans northwards met Megalitic Atlantean culture? One other thing is very interesting. If we look at who built these megaliths in Pomerania, we see that they were built by funnel beaker people.

Quote:
The Funnel(-neck-)beaker culture, short TRB or TBK from (German) Trichter(-rand-)becherkultur (ca 4100 BC–ca 2800 BC) was an archaeological culture in north-central Europe. It developed as a technological merger of local neolithic and mesolithic techno-complexes between the lower Elbe and middle Vistula rivers, introducing farming and husbandry as a major source of food to the pottery-using hunter-gatherers north of this line.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Funnelbeaker_culture

Where was the center of this megalith culture which introduced farming and husbandry? It was in the area between Elbe and Vistula, in Pomeranija, the land of Pomori or Fomori. These funnel beaker people descend from Stroke-ornamented ware people who we already mentioned as the guys who first built rondel enclosures or henges.

One very interesting thing about funnel beaker people is that they probably introduced the milk tolerance gene into European population. The distribution of this gene corresponds with the distribution of the funnel beaker culture. But genetically (from the point of view of the male chromosome) this area is very diverse. Actually milk tolerance corresponds most closely with the distribution of the R1b chromosome. Is the R1b the carrier of the Atlantean Megalith culture and and if so where and how did it land in Europe, considering its distribution from west to east? Did it arrive from Caspian Iberia on boats that sailed up Volga river, along the south Baltic coast, and then landed in Ireland Iberia and finally ended up in Atlantic Iberia? Or was the other way round?

Now what is very interesting is the culture that comes after the funnel beaker culture and which is a continuation of the funnel beaker culture: the Corded Ware culture. If we have a look at the spread of the Corded Ware culture, we see that it corresponds with the distribution of Baltic Slavic and Germanic languages. It also corresponds with the distribution of the R1a Y chromosome as well I2 chromosome in Europe.

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/D...g/message/1226


It also corresponds with the territory between river Elbe and river Volga the western most and eastern most edges of the Baltic - Caspian trade route. This is the territory which represents the mixing ground between I2 and R1a and, i believe, the birth place of the (Indo) Europeans. If we look at the distribution of the I2 chromosome, we see that both I2a and I2b have spikes around Volga river. Is this because of the ancient Volga trade route? I think so.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml


If we look at the I2a and I2b distribution in Europe we clearly see that the Balkan Baltic region jumps out as the homeland of the I2. This is the exact place where we later find the Celts, and south western Slavs, Germanics and Balts. The same people the same place the same genes, the same language...

Now the last but not the least. Our Mushki who came from the Balkans never appear in Hittite records as a separate nation. Is it because Hitties new that Mushi means men, solders, lords and is not a name for a tribe? Were Mushki just Hittite solders? If we look at the distribution of the Balkan I2a Y chromosome we see that it closely corresponds with the borders of the old Hittite empire and even better with the borders of the Asyrian empire and Sumeran empire. Is this a coincidence? I don't think so. We know that the Vinca type artifacts started appearing in Mesopotamia in the mid 4th millennium BC, right after Vincans decided to go and conquer the world. They brought with them their genes, their culture and their shoes. The clue is in the shoe.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyria
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumer
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21-05-2013, 20:20   #34
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Dublinviking, I sure hope you are saving this material somewhere else or in some other format, as well as here.
It would be a shame if your research got lost in cyberspace. These things happen.
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22-05-2013, 10:14   #35
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thanks for your concern. I am. I was burnt once before.
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22-05-2013, 13:32   #36
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Speaking about the Mushki and the link between the Serbs, the Irish and the Georgians i came across this article today which says that based on the frequency of the oldest genetic marker HG2 (no idea what that is so would be grateful if someone would explain it to me and the others), Serbs are more related to the Irish, Scandinavians and the Georgians than to the rest of the Slavs.

Here is the article in Serbian:

http://www.novosti.rs/vesti/naslovna...YL8P0.facebook

According to the article Serbs have the most of this HG2 (what ever it is) and here is the concentration and the spreading path diagram. It shows that the gene has originated in Serbia and has then spread towards Georgia and towards Scandinavia and Ireland...

http://www.novosti.rs/upload/images/...riji-gen_N.jpg

It talks about some research done by Graham Coop. I believe this is the correct article about the results of the research:

http://www.plosbiology.org/article/i...l.pbio.1001555
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22-05-2013, 17:20   #37
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Serb, Sarb, Sirb. All different writing and pronunciation of of the same name for the mountain people of Central Europe.

Here is a peculiar dance from Romania called Sirbian (Serbian) dance. What does it remind you of?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirba

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=GDN9NSAo-WM
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23-05-2013, 14:05   #38
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Have a look at this. When I was I kid I remember seeing an old wooden cross standing in the middle of a field just outside my dad’s village. It was at the edge of the village land, the same like in Ireland and other Celtic lands where holly land is the land that separates tribes. It was a place where village "slava" or the ancestral celebration was celebrated every year. It was always covered in flowers and people used to bring food and drink to it and light candles in front of it. This is still a living tradition in Serbia...


Imagine my surprise when later in life i discovered "celtic" crosses...


http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/3010/dscn3999.jpg
http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/420...bardesktop.jpg
http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/1...krstbl6.th.jpg
http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/5...lasotince4.jpg
http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/2...lasotince4.jpg
http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/7...lasotince4.jpg
http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/5...lasotince4.jpg
http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/3...cileksovac.jpg

So for me going to Ireland was like going to my second home in a way...

You will not find any mention of this in any Serbian history books. No one cares. As if these people and their culture doesn't exist. The only work ever written on this is an obscure little book written by a local school teacher come historian.

By the way the same culture exists in the east Baltic, the land of Pruteni (Prussians). I am about to talk about this if I ever get a chance....

Also did you know that the first "Celtic" crosses came to Ireland from England and were based on earlier wooden crosses and that the oldest wooden "celtic" cross was found in Viking dublin?


The same area of Serbia has a peculiar grammatical construct. They use "na" to express belonging:


Q: "na koga je ovo kuče" (of or on whom is this hound) whose hound is this? This implies belonging or owning being equaled to having the thing in question on one person. This construct is used only for material goods and animals and not for members of the family. This construct is ancient and comes from the time when everything you owned was on you.


A: na petra. (of or on peter)

ovo je kuče na petra (this is the hound on or of petar)

This construct exists in Irish and in this dialect of Serbian which is spoken in my birth place.

Mac na Mara - the son of (na) the sea

By the the word for hound (wolf) is the same in Irish and Serbian (Cu, Ku)

Ku - wolf hound
Ku-ja - she wolf hound
ku-ce - male or baby wolf hound
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23-05-2013, 16:43   #39
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Opanak

Quote:
Opanak (Serbian Cyrillic: Опанак; Macedonian: Опинок; Bulgarian: цървул[a]) are traditional peasant shoes worn in Southeastern Europe (specifically Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, Macedonia, Serbia). The attributes of the Opanci (name in plural) are: a construction of leather, lack of laces, durable, and various ending on toes. In Serbia, the design of the horn-like ending on toes indicates the region of origin. The concept, and the word, exists in Romania (as opincă) which is borrowed from Slavic. The Opanci are considered a national symbol of Serbia, and the traditional peasant footwear for people in the Balkan region.
Official Etymology

Quote:
Serbo-Croatian "opanak", and Bulgarian and Macedonian "опинок", all ultimately derive from Proto-Slavic *opьnъkъ, which itself is a compound of the prepositional *o(b)- "around, on, etc." with final *b assimilated and the resulting greminated consonant cluster *pp being simplified to *p, and the vrddhi-lenghthened root vowel of the verb *pęti, originally meaning "to strain, move" (cf. modern standard Serbo-Croatian verbs conveying the same notion such as nàpēti/на̀пе̄ти, pròpēti/про̀пе̄ти, ràspēti/ра̀спе̄ти, pòpēti/по̀пе̄ти..), but subsequently coming to mean "to climb" (whence the meaning of modern standard Serbo-Croatian pȇti/пе̑ти, pènjati/пѐњати). So literally, opanak would roughly mean "climbing footwear".[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opanak


Here is an excellent web site on European peasant footwear:

http://www.eliznik.org.uk/EastEurope/Costume/opinci.htm


The oldest mention of a footwear that looks like Opanak is found in Azerbaijan. In Sanscrit, the footwear similar to opanak is called upanah (upana). Official etymology is that it comes from upa - to tie up, and nat to bend. It is still worn in certain parts of India as part of Ceremonial dress. We can find depictions of opanak in Iran, Afghanistan, Mesopotamia, Asia Minor, and in Europe from Balkans to Baltic and in Ireland.

In the Balkans only male opanak has the "beak", the front part that curls upwards. It is a symbol of a male genitalia.

Now interestingly enough one culture where we see opanak everywhere are Hittites.


Hittit opanak

Seal of Muwattalli I, depicted in the embrace of the Storm God of Heaven. His Hittite name ‘Muwattalli’ is written on the left, while his Hurrian name, ‘Šarri-Teššup’, is written on the right.

http://www.hittites.info/Images/muwattalli_1_seal_1.gif


Rock inscription of Muwattalli I at Fraktin

http://www.hittites.info/Images/muwa..._1_fraktin.gif


Yazılıkaya (Hatusha)

http://www.atamanhotel.com/whc/hattu...ya-relief.html

http://www.hattuscha.de/02-135_42ff-345x256.jpg
http://www.hattuscha.de/02-135_64-250x346.jpg
http://www.hattuscha.de/02-143_81-300x361.jpg

Various rock carvings

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/9...c9526a6846.jpg
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/1126/0038ji.jpg
http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/2...img2803zf7.jpg
http://antique.mrugala.net/Mesopotam...20offrande.jpg
http://www.hittitemonuments.com/bor/bor05.jpg
http://i41.tinypic.com/21j4toi.jpg


Ilirian Opanak

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...rianCeltic.jpg

The Oldest Known Well-Preserved Leather Shoe from Armenia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Areni-1_shoe#cite_note-2

Irih early medieval leather shoe

http://www.alia.ie/tirnanog/sochis/xviii136.jpg
http://www.alia.ie/tirnanog/sochis/xviiib.html

Now here is the best bit:

In Irish we again have a word opanak and the word for sole of the foot taban identical to the corresponding words in Serbian. We also have the complete etymology of these words:

bonn - base, sole of the foot
tob - quick, instant
tobaine - quickness, suddenness
tobann - sudden, hasty, quick
obann - swift (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobelar)

obann probably comes from o+bonn, on sole of the foot, what we put on sole of the foot, on the base and which makes us swift.

ach - an ending for making a noun from an adjective

oban + ack = obannach = opanak = what makes us swift

in Serbian a word taban means sole of the foot. Tabanati means to run, to go quickly.

Tobann = T+obann = Taban - Sole of the foot, Quick

In Serbian there is also a word "opa!" exclamation which people say when they are jumping and which also means to jump. "opati" means to jump.

How did these two words get to be in Serbian, other south Slavic languages and Irish? I think that it has to be second millennium BC at the time when Mushki went to Asia minor to form Hittite empire. Mushki, the manly solders with opanak which has a beak pointing up to show that they are Mushki (men)? Or maybe even earlier? Any ideas?

Last edited by dublinviking; 23-05-2013 at 17:40.
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24-05-2013, 12:17   #40
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Papuča (plural: Papuče pronounced papuche)

Papuča is a word which in Serbian today means slipper but is actually just another word for the same type of simple leather sole footwear of type opanak.


Here is the official etymology:

Quote:
From Ottoman Turkish پابوج (pâbûc), from Persian پاپوش (pā-puš).
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/papu%C4%8Da


Now what is the word for slipper in various languages:

Albanian - heqël
Afrikaans - pantoffel
Arabic - something that sounds like shimsam

Here is a discussion on various words for shoes used in Arabic languages, just to make sure the word did not come from Arabic languages:

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1272771

Armenian - hoghat’ap’
Azerbaijani - otaq ayaqqabısı
Basque - eskarpia (Sout), eskarpiña (old B) n. ‘slipper’.
Berber - bálgha
Belorussian - Тапачкі (tapachki)
Bosnian - papuča
Bulgarian - чехъл (chehl)
Catalan - sabatilla
Croatian - papuča
Czech - pantofel
Danish - tøffel
Dutch - pantoffel
English - slipper
Estonian - suss
Finnish - tohveli
French - pantoufle, babouche (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babouche)
Galician - chinelos
German - Pantoffel
Greek - pantófla
Gujarati - Campala
Hindi - Slipara
Hungarian - papucs
Italian - pantofola
Latin - CREPIDA
Latvian - tupele or Čības
Lithuanian - šlepetė or šliurė
Macedonian - пантофли (pantofli)
Maltese - krepiduli, papoċċ
Norwegian - tøffel
Persian - pāpoosh (پاپوش), from pa "foot" + poosh "covering."
Polish - pantofel
Portugese - chinelo
Romaian - papuc
Russian - тапочка (tapuchka)
Serbian - папуча (papucha)
Slovak - pantofel
Spanish - zapatilla, pantufla, babucha (clearly showing influence from many languages)
Swedish - toffel
Turkish - terlik
Ukrainian - Гапочка (gapochka)
Yiddish - Ştʻqşwk


Here is a discussion on Iberian words for slipper and shoe:

Quote:
Iberian Peninsula and recorded also north of the Pyrenees: Hispano-Arabic pargha ~ bargha ‘sandals’, sg. parghat (mod. Arabic and Berber bálgha ‘slipper, shoe’), Mozarabic probable *parca, Portuguese alparca ‘sandal’, an apparent Old Cast. alparga ‘sandal’, Arag. and SE Spain albarca id., Valencia abarca {avarca}, Bearn. abarque id. Cast. alpargata id. derives from the same ult. source via Arabic...
http://www.blogseitb.us/basque_boise...-of-Basque.pdf

From the above we can see that the word "Papuča" or a similar word is used for a footwear in Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian, Persian, Ottoman Turkish, French, Spanish but not in Arabic languages, Latin, Greek nor in eastern Slavic and Germanic languages.

Why am i boring you with this?

Because of this:

Quote:
Pampooties are raw-hide shoes, which were formerly made and worn on the Aran Islands of County Galway, Ireland. They are formed of a single piece of untanned hide folded around the foot and stitched with twine or a leather strap.[1]
Hide from the buttocks was most often used. The hair was usually left and this improved the shoe's grip.[2] The raw hide is kept flexible by use and the constant damp conditions of Western Ireland. However the shoes are not made to last. They are prone to rot and were usually kept for as little as a month or less.[3]
Pampooties are similar to the Scottish cuaran shoes, and are the precursors to ghillies, Celtic dance shoes. They are also similar in appearance to American moccasins.[2] Ancient shoes found preserved from Stone Age Europe have a similar design.[4]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pampootie

These early shoes (slippers) were being worn in Ireland as early as the late iron age and early medieval period. This is confirmed by the examples found in Irish bogs and which can be seen in the Irish national museum. They were still made and worn in 1950 in exactly the same way in Aran Islands, the most remote and westernmost Island off the coast of Ireland. They were probably worn in Ireland even earlier as they represent the the most rudimentary type of leather footwear and are almost identical to the Armenian prehistoric shoe. Here is an instruction how to make the Pampooties and how to wear them:

http://www.rosieandglenn.co.uk/TheLi...EarlyShoes.htm

Here is an article about 18th century Scottish highland shoes. In the article you can among other find this:

Quote:
Just like the Native American, the Highlander lived in a society where hunting and limited migration formed a large part of daily life. The practicality of the bag-shoe, like the Native American moccasin, was hard to improve upon.
http://www.appins.org/pampooties.htm

What this is saying is that up until 20th century peasants did not have fashion. What worked was made and was used and was worn unchanged for thousands of years. These shoes are a perfect example. Because there is no change in the object, there is certainly no change in the name of the object. So we can assume that the name for these Irish and Scottish shoes was pampootie (paputie, papuche) at least as far back as the early medieval time.

Ron Pinhasi, the man who found the Armenian prehistoric shoe and a lecturer in archaeology at the University College Cork in Cork, Ireland said:

Quote:
Interestingly, the Armenian shoe is very similar to the “pampooties” worn in the Aran Islands on Ireland’s west coast up to the 1950s. “In fact, enormous similarities exist between the manufacturing technique and style of the [Armenian] shoe and those found across Europe at later periods, suggesting that this type of shoe was worn for thousands of years across a large and environmentally diverse region.”

http://today.ucla.edu/portal/ut/PRN-...oe-160052.aspx


In England we find this old word:

Quote:
Babouche - Etymology: from French babouche and Arabic بابوش, from Persian pāpoosh (پاپوش), from pa "foot" + poosh "covering." a chiefly oriental slipper made without heel or quarters.[2][3]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...Persian_origin


Now can anyone here explain to me how is it possible that if the origin of the word pampootie (paputie, papuche, Papuče) is indeed Persian, we find pampootie in Iron Age Ireland?

Unless the origin of the word is not Persian but it actually comes from the prehistoric Balkans again.

What if word pampootie (paputie, papuche, Papuče) originated in the Balkans and was brought to Ireland at some stage of the Vinca or some later bronze or iron age migration? And what if word was brought to Persia and north Africa from the Balkans during Ottoman time when Ottoman Turkish was hugely influenced by the South Slavic languages?

Quote:
The Slavic influence

One of the unexpected results of the Ottoman expansion was an active penetration of Slavic ethnics into the Ottoman armed forces (Janissaries) and even into the ruling elite. Serbians were particularly numerous and the Serbian language could be heard in the Ottoman court; it was used in official documents alongside with Turkish. The Italian historian Paolo Giovio who compiled a book on Turkish history, wrote: “At the court [of Suleyman The Magnificent] several languages are spoken. Turkish is the language of the ruler; Arabic is the language of the Muslim Law, Koran; Slavic (sclavonica) is mostly used by the Janissaries, and Greek is the language of the populace of the capital and other cities of Greece.”
The Polish traveller Strijkowskij wrote that in 1574, when he was in Istanbul, he heard with his own ears kobzari (bards) singing songs in Serbian in the streets and in the taverns about victories of valiant Muslims over the Christians.
Bassano, an Italian visitor to Suleyman’s court, claimed that “he [the sultan] respected and highly valued his wife [Roxolana] and understood her native language to some extent.” One of the sultan’s viziers was Rustem-pasha, a Serb or a Croat.
Ukraine, except for some areas and not for long, was never conquered by the Ottomans but it became a steady source of supplies of white slaves to the empire. The Crimean Tartars were the main suppliers. Mykhailo Lytvyn, a Ukrainian diplomat in the service of the Lithuanian government, wrote in his memoirs dating to 1548–1551 that the krymchaky (Crimean Tartars) engaged only in two trades — cattle-breeding and capturing Ukrainians to be sold to the Ottomans as slaves. “The ships that often come to their ports from across the sea, bring weapons, clothes and horses which are exchanged for slaves who are loaded into these ships. And all the Ottoman bazaars are full of these slaves who are sold and bought to be used in the households, to be resold, to be given as presents… There was one Jew, amazed at the great numbers of these slaves to be seen at the slave markets, who asked whether there were any people left in the land where these slaves are brought from.”
http://www.wumag.kiev.ua/index2.php?param=pgs20044/74

If the footwear and its name pampootie (paputie, papuche, Papuče) originate in the Balkans, that would explain the distribution of this word and the type of footwear much better i think. But is there anything else that could prove that pampootie and Papuče are one and the same and that they come from some old proto Irish-Serbian language? There is:


Quote:
Pampooties are similar to the Scottish cuaran shoes, and are the precursors to ghillies, Celtic dance shoes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pampootie

Quote:
Ghillies are specially designed shoes used for several types of dance. They are soft shoes, similar to ballet shoes. They are used by women in Irish dance, by men in Scottish country dance, and by men and women in Highland dance.
Ghillies are also sometimes known by a variety of other names that include: light shoes, pomps, pumps, and soft shoes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghillies

Quote:
The following is a brief outline of regional Scottish footwear forms in the first half of the 18th century. The terms "pampootie" (Hebridean and Outer Isles), "cuaran" (Highland Gaelic or Erse), and "ghillie" (or "gillie," a misnomer derived from the Gaelic for servant or attendant) all denote one specific form of footwear ‹ the primitive bag-shoe or European moccasin fashioned from hairy rawhide ‹ generally known as "rivelin." Examples of this form of footwear go back to the early Bronze Age in Northern Europe...
http://www.appins.org/pampooties.htm


This is the important bit: "ghillie" (or "gillie," a misnomer derived from the Gaelic for servant or attendant)...

In Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian (Dinaric languages) there is a word "gilje" which is a word for shoes. "giljati" is a word for walking. In Gaelic we have gillie a servant, someone who you send to walk for you and do errands and "ghillie" for poor people's papuche or opanke shoes.

This again shows the connection between Irish and Serbian culture and language which does not exist in other European languages and which i believe points to their coexistence in a very distant past, probably in the Balkans during Vinca time or even earlier.

Interestingly the Armenia (Georgia), Ireland and England and the Balkans are again the same area where we find mushki and bregians...


If anyone has a better explanation for this i would like to hear it...

Last edited by dublinviking; 24-05-2013 at 15:48.
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24-05-2013, 17:43   #41
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Maybe pampootie (paputie, papuche, Papuche) all come from papuk or papak or have the same root with the word papak. Papak is Serbian word for cloven hoof found in sheep, pigs, goats, cows and deer.


http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/papak


Quote:
A cloven hoof is a hoof split into two toes. This is found on members of the mammalian order Artiodactyla. Examples of mammals that possess this type of hoof are deer and sheep.[1]
The two digits of cloven hoofed animals are homologous to the third and fourth fingers of the hand. They are called claws and are named for their relative location on the foot: the outer, or lateral, claw and the inner, or medial claw. The space between the two claws is called the interdigital cleft; the area of skin is called the interdigital skin. The hard outer covering of the hoof is called the hoof wall, or horn. It is a hard surface, similar to the human fingernail.[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloven_hoof


The hard outer covering can be pilled off with a knife and it resembles a shoe a covering for the soft bottom of the foot or hoof.


Quote:
In folklore and popular culture, a cloven hoof has long been associated with the Devil.
This is quite interesting as it gives us a link into Irish:


péac - peak, point
áibhirseoir - adversary, devil


péac ón áibhirseoir - expression meaning limb of satan, and because satan has sheep or goats limbs, the limb of satan is cloven hoof of a sheep or a goat. so péac is cloven hoof as well.


ba - root word for many words associated with sheep, and an onomatopoeic word for sheep as well so it probably is the old word for sheep.


babag - tassle, bunch or hair, wool
bachlag - a shoot, a curl, Irish bachlóg. This word is intersting.
bachal - shepards staff
bàbhun - enclosure for cattle (sheep), ring fort. In medieval Serbian and Bosnian documents there is repeated mention of Babuni as being the simple folk, sheppards, mountain people, non christians and babun language which was banned.
bàdhan - a churchyard (Sutherland), i.e. "enclosure", same as bàbhun.
bán - white (like wool. olann (irish) = woolen (english) = vunen (serbian))
banair - sheep fold
Cabhan = grassy hill
Gabhan - cattle pond. In serbian shepard is čoban, but shepard's hooded rain gown is kabanica (gabanica). Was the original word for shepard in Serbian Gaban?


bá - stupid (in Serbia we say stupid like a sheep)


so


ba + péac = bapéac = papak = cloven hoof...

bapéaca - bapuca - pampoota -papuča - what is pulled over a hoof or a foot to protected it???

Interesting anyway.
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27-05-2013, 13:57   #42
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I have this correspondence with someone regarding my last post on another thread. I believe it is worth posting it here as well.

hi Garry

Thanks for your help and suggestions.

Quote:
I think you are indulging in a little etymological shoe-horning in order to forge a connection between Irish and Serbian words that may not exist.

I like how shoehorning sounds in this context

Just few clarifications:

péac ón áibhirseoir = 'limb of Satan'


This is not my interpretation. I found it in Focloir Gaeilge-Bearla/Irish-English Dictionary as one of the phrases where the word péac is used. Now from this i deduced, and maybe i am wrong, that péac can also mean a sheep or goat or cow limlb (cloven hoof). I hope this makes things a little clearer about this etymology. By the way i recommend the dictionary it is excellent.

Quote:
This seems to be based upon MacBain again. His etymological dictionary refers to Scottish Gaelic, not Irish.
I try to consult as many sources relating to both Irish and Scottish Gaelic. I do that because some old (Celtic Serbian Irish) words were preserved better in Scotland than in Ireland. In Ireland they were sometimes gaelicised almost beyond recognition.


Quote:
The Irish for sheep is caora or caorach. It has nothing to do with 'ba'.
Agreed, never claimed that the Irish word for sheep is ba. I said that it might have been. In modern Serbian the word for sheep is ovca, but in old Serbian we find brav or b(a)rav. The reason why i suggested the existence of word "ba" is because from what i have found so far all the major domestic and wild animals in Serbian have onomatopoeic names. So sheep would be "baaaa" or "baeee" or "beee". Why do i think that people originally used characteristic sounds of animals as their names? Because we are talking the beginning of the language. There were no words, yet people wanted to communicate and pass a message. In case of sheep, the message was simple: Look there is a sheep! Except that they did not have a word for sheep and even if someone decided to call a sheep a sheep, he had no way of explaining to the others what sheep is, because there was no language yet. But everyone have seen a sheep, and have heard a sheep. So if you imitate the sound of a sheep, everyone knows what you are talking about. So "baaa" or "ba" conveys the message: "look there is a sheep" perfectly and simply. Later on people invented other words for sheep, but that was much later when they had a language as means to associate these "sheep" words with "sheep" meaning.

In Irish and in Serbian we have similar onomatopoeic name for cow "bo". This comes from the actual sound of cows which is something between "mpbvooo", "mpbvoouu" "mpbvuuu". Here is a recording:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_EsxukdNXM

You can see that i have put "mpbv" at the beginning. "mpbv" it the undifferentiated sound created by opening your lips and blowing air out. You start with m then go to p then to b and at the very end you get v. This is exactly what you hear when you are listening to cows, and probably what people imitated when they wanted to tell each other that there is a cow somewhere around. Another reason why i put "mpbv" at the beginning of the word is because it is quite difficult to differentiate these sounds without proper training. This is why babies are "babbling", which means they are making "mpbv" sound until they acquire a sufficient control of their speech apparatus. Today this is relatively easy as we get a lot of this skill prepackaged in our genes through epigenetic inheritances, although not everyone gets the same genes and this is why we have languages that sound different. But at the beginning of the language development, people were still trying to learn how to control their mouths to make differentiated sounds and this is why i believe they used "mpbv" sound in "mpbvaaa" or "mpbvoo". This is also the reason why we have words like this:

bó (Irish) - cow
vo (Serbian) - cow, or castrated bull, or bull used for agricultural activities and not for mating.

but we also have all these other bo (vo) related words in Serbian which don't exist in Irish:

bo - stab
bosti - to stab
ubo - stabbed
bodež - knife

But also this:



Quote:
A boyar, or bolyar (Bulgarian: боляр or болярин; Ukrainian: буй or боярин; Russian: боя́рин, tr. boyarin; IPA: [bɐˈjarʲɪn]; Romanian: boier [boˈjer] (help·info); Greek: βογιάρος), was a member of the highest rank of the feudal Bulgarian, Moscovian, Kievan Rus'ian, Wallachian, and Moldavian aristocracies, second only to the ruling princes (in Bulgaria, tsars), from the 10th century to the 17th century. The rank has lived on as a surname in Russia, Romania, and Finland, where it is spelt Pajari.[1]
Etymology

Quote:
The word is likely derived from the plural form of the Bulgarian title boila ("noble"), bolyare, which is attested in Bulgar inscriptions[2][3] and rendered as boilades or boliades in the Greek of Byzantine documents.[4][5] Its ultimate derivation is probably from the Turkic roots bai ("noble, rich"; cf. "bey") and är ("man, men").[4] Another possible etymology of the term it may come from the Romanian word "boi" (bulls); a rich man is an owner of bulls or "boier".[6] The title entered Old Russian as быля (bylya)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyar

Let me suggest alternative etymology which corresponds with already proposed romanian one. Tho word Boyar comes from bó + àire = cow (cattle) + lord. We actially find bó àire in Irish texts describing the Iron age proliferation of ring forts, where each ring fort was owned by a bóàire or a cattle lord. This title was imposed on the Eastern Slavs during the process of merging of the Central European Celts (Western Slavs) and the Rus (Eastern Slavs). Remember how Dumha means tumulus in Irish, but also a place of councils, parliament in Russian. In old Ireland tumuluses were used as places of tribal councils and parliaments where kings were elected for instance. In Brega one of the tumuluses was actually converted into a royal fort. This merging of Celts and Russ basically meant that Celtic (Serbian, west Slavic) military elite became ruling caste of the Russ. This process was described in "The book of Veles" a much disputed ancient Slavic manuscript, but which i believe to be based on actual histories because i found in it things that could not have been invented in 19th or 20th century as the knowledge necessary to forge these things did not exist at the time. From that period of merging we have these words as well:

Mol, Moladh (Irish). Meanings

commend(vt)
commend(vt)
hub(n m1)(of wheel)
nominate(vt)(propose)
propose(vt)
praise(vt)
recommend(vt)
suggest(vt)

Mol, Molba (Serbian). Meanings

Praise
Beg
Plead
Suggest

Mol-im te bože - I beg you, I praise you god
Mol-ba Pleading
Mol-io bih - If i could suggest

Moladjec (Molad je (e) - c) - recommended is - a commendation given to a someone


Quote:
Badhan/badhún is derived from Medieval Irish for cattle (= ba) + fort (= dún). Your grassy hill (= cabhan) is based on the root word cab/cabha (= mouth/hollow/bend) which itself is related to Latin caberna (= hollow/cave/vault).

As for grassy hill (cabhan) i would suggest another etymology:


bán - white (like wool, or milk). Here i think you can see the old word bá + n as meaning that color which looks like things we get from the thing that says "bá". The word bán could have even been used to denote sheep as wee see here:

àire - attention, care, care, minister, lord

banair - sheep fold. Probably comes from banaire - place for caring, owning, keeping sheep.

Now these two words:

Cabhan = grassy hill
Gabhan - cattle pond. In serbian shepard is čoban, but shepard's hooded rain gown is kabanica (gabanica). Was the original word for shepard in Serbian Gaban?

I believe that they come from the same root: ga + ban = stick, spear, stake + sheep. This perfectly describes sheparding: you go to a grassy hill with your sheep and your stick or spear (ga) where you mind the sheep while they graze. Then you bring them to gaban or sheep, cattle pond where you milk them and protect them during the night. The person who carries a stick (ga) and is minding sheep (ba(n)) is gaban (shepard) and he wears gabanicu (hooded rain gown). Speaking of Badhan/badhún being derived from Medieval Irish for cattle (= ba) + fort (= dún), in Serbian we have another interesting word: katun (gadun). This word means shepards settlement in the mountains during summer grazing period. This comes from Ga (stake) and dun (which actually does not mean fort but enclosure). so Gadun is an enclosure made of stakes, ring fort.

We also have this word

Baodhan, baoghan - a calf.

http://archive.org/stream/gaelicname...buoft_djvu.txt

I actually believe that this word used to mean lamb as well or any cattle (cows, sheep) descendant. This comes from:

ba, bo (sheep, cow)

+

ogha - grandchild, Irish ó, ua, g. ui, a grandson, descendant,

http://www.ceantar.org/Dicts/MB2/mb28.html#MB.O

so ba(o)oghan - a child of a sheep or cow


We also have this cluster of words:

Irish

bleagh - milk
bleachdair - milk man
bleoghainn - milking
agh - field, meadow
le - with, by
leagh (Scottish Gaelic) - melt, thaw, dissolve (in liquid) (make liquid)
leacht (Irish) - liquid
àire - attention, care, care, minister, lord

bleagh = ba + leacht (leagh) = ba + leak = baleak = (pronounced) blek (milk) - literally a liquid you can squeeze from this thing on the meadow which says ba.
bleachdair = ba + leacht (leagh) + àire = (pronounced) blek(d)ar - literally someone who cares for getting liquid squeezed from this thing on the meadow which says ba.



http://www.ceantar.org/Dicts/MB2/mb04.html#blàthach
and
Focloir Gaeilge-Bearla/Irish-English Dictionary


Serbian

bleko = "mpbv"aleko = mleko (milk)
blekar = "mpbv"lekar - mlekar (milk man)
blekan = "mpbv"lekan - mlekan (made of milk, to milk)

Interestingly in Serbian we call sounding of sheep "ble". This probably comes from ba + le = sound produced by sheep...

Here we have another interesting word probably related to cattle (sheep, cows) but also women, which were in the olden days considered to be a property in the same way as cattle.

Ban, Bana - woman, girl, female. I think it is interesting how similar this is to Ba, Bo, Ban for sheep and cow. By the way in Bosnia there is a word "bona" which means woman.

Now in the olden days (I like this expression, i got it from Peppa pig which i watch with my son), bands of warriors used to go into cattle and women raids. The aim was to steal as much cattle or women from the enemy tribe. In Irish a group of men is called dáil. From this word we have gardáil from ga(r) (spear) + dáil (group of men) = men with spears.

So from ba(n) cattle, women and dáil (group of men) we have bandáil which is in modern Irish used to mean assembly of women (what ever that means) but originally probably had the meaning of "gang of men going to steal cattle and women". This is probably where word Vandal (bandail) comes from. Vandali, Bandali were probably just gangs of men from Central Europe on gian cattle and women raid. In Serbian and other languages we still have the word "banda" which means exactly that (a gang):

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/banda

This is just one of the words that entered Latin from this central European "Celtic" (Serbian, western Slavic) language.

While we are talking about cattle here are few more words which are the same in Serbian and Irish and is related to cattle:

tuar (Irish) - dung, manure, cattle field, sheep run
tor (Serbian) - sheep run

gùn (Irish) - gown, Irish gúna; from the English gown, from Welsh gwn (*gwun), from Celtic *vo-ouno-

gunj (Serbian) - gown made from wool (vuna is wool in Serbian)

http://www.ceantar.org/Dicts/MB2/mb22.html


Quote:
I think you are indulging in a little etymological shoe-horning in order to forge a connection between Irish and Serbian words that may not exist. I would be more amenable to your argument if you showed a better knowledge of the roots of Irish words.
How's this?

Last edited by dublinviking; 27-05-2013 at 15:09.
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28-05-2013, 09:27   #43
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When i was in Serbia last month i got few dictionaries that cover specific dialects of Serbian language. One of them covers Dinaric Montenegrian dialect, from the same area where they use word Katun (Gadun) for the Shepard's mountain settlement. In the dictionary they had a whole section dedicated to sheep names, given to them based on their appearance and behavior. I know i am mad. In there i found this:

Bleka - completely white sheep
Blekan - completely white ram

Compare this with

bleagh - milk (white)
bleachdair - milk man
bleoghainn - milking

Also as an example of the interchangeability of the "mpbv" sound group i will expand the "bo" word group in Serbian:

bó (Irish) - cow
vo (Serbian) - cow, or castrated bull, or bull used for agricultural activities and not for mating.
bo - stab (like with horns from bo, vo. This is probably how people got an idea for creating stabbing and impaling weapons in the first place)
bosti - to stab
ubo - stabbed
bodež - knife
boj, voj - battle with sharp objects which you can use to stab, like spears, o knives
bojnik, vojnik, bojovnik - solder, a man that has a sharp objects which you can use to stab, like spears, o knives
bojna, vojna - war, a fight with sharp objects which you can use to stab, like spears, o knives
vojevati - to fight in war
boii - not a tribe but the solders, men with spears?
bojati se - to be afraid

You can see here that b and v are practically interchangeable. This apples to Serbi and Servi in the same way. In the Irish language we don't even have v sound. We have p, b, mh and bh. This is a good illustration of the undifferentiated "mpbv" block being partially differentiated.

Now how old are these words? How old is this language?
dublinviking is offline  
28-05-2013, 17:29   #44
dublinviking
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Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 293
To support my theory that the first names of animals with distinct sounds were onomatopoeic, i have here collected the names and sounds of all major European wild and domestic animals. The names are in Serbian and then in English. I would like to ask people here to help me and supply the matching names of animals in other European languages.

I think that it is amazing that every one of the animal names in Serbian is onomatopoeic and very few in English are. As i explained earlier onomatopoeic names were used during the creation of the language, before there was sufficient grammar and word pool to explain the association between the name and the animal. This shows how old the Serbian animal names are. This also says a lot about the age of the Serbian language as a whole.

Most interesting is that the common word for Eagle (Orao) is derived from the sound of the Griffon vulture which only lives in southern Europe. This puts the birth place of Serbian language in the Dinaric Alps.

Wild animals

lav (lion) lions used to live in Europe in distant past.

the sound is laaaow
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_22gJ5kB31k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGnEgAVAVIk

vuk, volk, voulk, olk, oulk

the sound is wouuuuulk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9xhOQ26QYI

(wolf)

the sound is wof,wolf
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvHHi3GI1XU

ris (lynx)

the sound is rissss
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbhkXg9iFYA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8eBrv_JKuk

urs, medved (bear). Medved is the euphemistic name for bear in Slavic languages. It is used instead of the real name for bear, as invoking the real name was considered dangerous. The real name is urs.

the sound is urs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGG616qvxBI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xz05MkWdr9k

svinja, guda, vepar (pig, boar)

vepar (wild boar)

the sound is veeee
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jniH3HfDo7Q

svinja

the sound is sviiiii
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=og5rKt9VYX0

guda (grunting, groktanje)

the sound is goud
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4P5FxuwGlzo


elk, elen, jelen (deer stag)

the sound is eeelk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97ORGksHhKw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOEj4xVKN38

how people imitate elks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uN9Rr8uM5Q4

kuna (marten)

sounds like koun, kuun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pACaNzQXn4o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kW2b-npfHuQ
http://sounds.bl.uk/Environment/Brit...01419-0300V0#_

lasica (weasel)

sounds like lasiiica
http://sounds.bl.uk/Environment/Brit...0001377-1400V0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=On_lQ5k8eO8

Lija, Lisica (fox)

sounds like liaaaa
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6NuhlibHsM

jazavac pronounced iazavac (badger)

sounds like iazavava
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwrG_HdH2oY

jež (hedgehog)

sounds like jeezhjezh
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6w1tIGzOPvo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7VtFnJe-K0

zmija, smija (snake) the ssssss sound comes from the slithereing sound a snake makes in the undergrowth and from the hissing sound an angry snake makes to scare the enemy off

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imR80hOKAJo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQY0b_G_CrI

žaba pronounced zhaba (frog)

sounds like zhabababab
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gn3wFrLxqw

foka - seal

sounds like (f)oook
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-LIqdjqHts

vidra (otter)

sounds like viiii
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUJDmAXsEvs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07zZxaKuKT0

dabar (beaver) the name comes from the sound of wood chewing or maybe from the angry sound

chewing sounds like dabdabdab
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfTubrLqXCE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV8ptd_XU7U

angry beaver sounds like daaaab
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXpSdyFgwvc

veverica (Red squirrel)

sounds like veverver
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Azw7BueVQ0c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8hNASBFDJY

domestic animals


bo,vo (cow)

the sound is mpbvooou
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_EsxukdNXM

ba, barav (sheep)

the sound is baaa
http://www.sheep.com/sounds/baasheep1.wav

koza (goat)

the sound is gooo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giR1o8o5KMw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QU2n8HhOFi0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dp0Bt2cbcc8

konj, konjic, (which makes njiii sound, horse)


the sound is niiiii
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hq6l5767Iek

mazga (mule)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UD90xkKUHYE

magarac

the sound is magaaaa

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWS4Eu8E2z4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wDFGU20P9k


kokoska (chicken)

the sound is koko
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uI7ni7zL8qU

kokot, oroz, pevac (cockerel)

the sound is kokoreku or ooroso
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFhUzAwDEz4


patka (duck)

the sound is pa(k)pa(k) or k(mpbv)a(k)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlbbCPQqV2k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=487jIOnY-yE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCY8jp2tZ1c

guska, gaska (guse)

the sound is guu, gua
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_28ZtSu1iZM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUtFHPnW5MM

ku(ce), ker, pas (dog)

the sound is ouuuu, kouuuu, ku
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF1lwZ24RYI


the sound is kerrrrr
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5y-ewncOomk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuHtyDbyEaA

macka (cat)

the sound is maaaaou
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o52U05Ai5tE


wild birds


orao (eagle)

Griffon vulture, Gyps fulvus, Eurasian griffon. Grifon was one of the symbols of the Serbs

sound is closest to orr, aorr, oarr
http://www.hark.com/clips/tzxdcchmvd...d-gyps-fulvus-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktZ11CGKloA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBErXCxqUEA

golden eagle

the sound is very close to igal or ior
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Le6aZtJ7WPA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMT5ZL-0yeA

soko (Peregrine Falcon)

sounds like sokosokosoko
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P18xYHPGtRo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNO6acbF7n0


gavran, gabran (raven)

sounds like gaaa
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZBfahJmqAQ


Čavka (Jackdaw)

sounds like chaa
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kihVoeSIE7U

vrana (Crow)

sounds like vraa
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UP3pzQnWyb0

kukavica (cucoo)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzKdAr1pLAY


Ćuk pronounced tjuk (Scops Owl)

sounds like tjuk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Km3D2jq1HoQ

gugutka (Eurasian Collared Dove)

sounds like gugugu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xACNJcURd5I

golub (wood pidgeon)

sounds like gogolub
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n84sZIN4lv8


galeb (gull)

sounds like gaaal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qRJoMj92hw


jejina (long eared owl)


sounds like yeye
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWpnonRXLfM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KM7WPdpiwPc

buljina (Eurasian Eagle-owls)

sounds like bu-uu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gnzzMjbOpw

svraka (magpie)

sounds like svrakakaka
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxtORth2BIY


tetreb (capercaillie)

sounds like tetr
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exKHNaZuT64
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jipvjcP3oxE

štiglic, (Eurasian Siskin)

sounds like shtiii
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeQjBuBaIm8


Češljugar (goldfinch)

sounds like cheshcheshljuu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfjgjA_p3vQ

vrabac, dzivdzan (sparow)

sounds like dzivdziv
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PYZeVT_M5E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HHlFKalN0Q

senica (great tit)

sounds like senitc sesenitc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yGy5ZQdq28


roda (stork)

sounds like rodarodarodada
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHWri3VHIVI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YPM3rNfZNI

prepelica (quail)

sounds like prepreprep
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9w_GmaKN2Ik

jarebica pronounced iarebitsa (partridge)

sounds like iariariarebieareb
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fe4l0G5KYY

liska (coot)

sounds like liiis liiis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxZFztVX5DQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8_yEtUbTrY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oEy_vPez7o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqPAref2aJk

čaplja pronounced chaplja (Grey Heron)

sounds like chap chap
http://sounds.bl.uk/Environment/Brit...0001431-1200V0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ay3By1RHUM


lastavica (swallow)

sounds like vicviclalalalaaastavicvicvic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgcipZq5oMQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPri_hTK-rM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUjgirdanV4



insects


zrikavac (cricket)

sounds like zrizri
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZo4ZdKbqwg


cvrcak (cicada)

sounds like cvrrrrrr
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bnd6Ty68FU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqys8lKsu4s

muva (fly)

muva (house fly)

sounds like movazzz
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcuKTheCcsE


zunzara (bluebottle), obad (gadfly, horsefly) any big loud fly


sounds like zuzzzzz
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQiVnxepan4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNUd6cqh5Zk


pčela pronounced pchela but probably comes from (mpbv)(sz)ela like in polish pszczoła (beee)

sounds like mpbvsze
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtK9_EKDg1E

osa (wasp)

sounds like ossssssssss
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0f8vqlmxmY


bumbar (bumblebee)

sounds like bummmm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDMaOdIR9nA

Last edited by dublinviking; 28-05-2013 at 19:59.
dublinviking is offline  
28-05-2013, 22:15   #45
cfuserkildare
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,616
Language

Hi dublinviking,

One slight fly in the ointment is this,

The Irish "Gaelic" language has been changed so much in the last 100 years that an Irishman from the 18th century probably wouldn't understand most of it.

The closest to proper old Irish would be Scots Gaelic.

Quote from Wikipedia:-

"
Around the time of World War II, Séamas Daltún, in charge of Rannóg an Aistriúcháin (the official translations department of the Irish government), issued his own guidelines about how to standardise Irish spelling and grammar. This de facto standard was subsequently approved by the State and called the Official Standard or Caighdeán Oifigiúil. It simplified and standardised the orthography. Many words had silent letters removed and vowel combination brought closer to the spoken language. Where multiple versions existed in different dialects for the same word, one or more were selected.
Examples:
  • Gaedhealg / Gaedhilg(e) / Gaedhealaing / Gaeilic / Gaelainn / Gaoidhealg / GaolainnGaeilge, "Irish language" (Gaoluinn or Gaolainn is still used in books written in dialect by Munster authors, or as a facetious name for the Munster dialect)[citation needed]
  • Lughbhaidh, "Louth"
  • biadhbia, "food" "
This altered the Irish language to a massive extent. A look at the old street signs shows this. Above the modern street signs around in Dublin are still a few of the old cast iron signs and the Irish used in them are very different.


Cheers.
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