[srsly78]

Originally Posted by fenris

you have to understand the language as it is spoke also.

[fenris]

Bloody phone always thinks it knows best!

[srsly78]

Here is a good example of appropriate interview technique for a native Dublin speaker: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCauc...eature=related

[JustAThought]

You see it in jobs advertised all over the world. There can be a big difference between someones idea of how" fluent" they are, versus a native speaker.

Only in Ireland will the PC brigade try to screw something out of it.

The usual.

For me, I prefer customer facing service who understand directly what I say in the way I choose to say it, not a dumbed down simplistic way; or re-phrased again to make them get-it. However, many non-native speakers speak excellent English . There are nuances in culture and aspect that Employers , or customers, may want or expect. And most Language classes don't teach that.

It's the addded extras...

[Procrastastudy]

This seems pretty clear cut. While its fair to say that a native English speaker may be of various races the corollary of that isn't that a native speaker can be of any race therefore its discrimination on the basis of race.

The issue is with the word 'native' which needs to be given its ordinary meaning unless there is a good reason not to do so. If the company was constantly refusing people based on their language skills - that wouldn't be an issue - assuming, of course, that they were discounting all the 'native' speakers with poor language skills as well (which were not down to a disability).

[confuseddotcom]

I have a feeling the word Native has done a complete 360 in years gone by. The traditionalist in me looks at it in black and white that Native is a Native person, but the realist reckons there'd be quite a few "grey" areas on the context of the word in recent times and at the first chance given there'd be a few people willing to back its' case.

[greendom]

Originally Posted by xDramaxQueenx

Im sure plenty of people are native speakers that aren't native from an english speaking country. Take my friend as an example, she is polish. Moved to ireland when she was 11. She speaks fluent, perfect, unbroken english with a dublin accent. Who cares where she was born?

But the expression native means born with - your Polish friend may be the best speaker of english in the World but it's still not her native language.

[Vaarikas]

I agree with many of you that selecting people according to their mother tongue is pretty restrictive and in my opinion causes segregation and unnecessary tension. Are cases like these rare in your opinion, or does this sort of preference occur often even among employers who would not publicly state that they want a native speaker, but in reality would automatically choose an Irish name over a foreign name?

Also, if I was to report advertisements like these, which would be the best place?

[Procrastastudy]

Originally Posted by Vaarikas

I agree with many of you that selecting people according to their mother tongue is pretty restrictive and in my opinion causes segregation and unnecessary tension. Are cases like these rare in your opinion, or does this sort of preference occur often even among employers who would not publicly state that they want a native speaker, but in reality would automatically choose an Irish name over a foreign name?

Also, if I was to report advertisements like these, which would be the best place?

Its more subtle usually. I'll give you some personal examples. As some of this is going to be a bit controversial let me put my cards on the table. In my experience many young Irish people are terrible employees. The sense of entitlement born out of the Celtic Tiger - in certain parts of Dublin especially - is shocking. I say this so you can see I'm a picky moody bugger regardless of nationality. I'm not Irish for the record.

CVs - The way foreign CVs are structured is sometimes an immediate put off. I am also much more likely to attribute spelling and grammar mistakes to poor language skills than a simple error. Although all CVs with mistakes ended up in the bin as the down turn happened.

Interviews - for certain jobs (I was a retailer) communication skills are key as is how someone comes across - more often than not an Irish person will have a massive advantage here. There is also a real undercurrent (I especially notice it in south Dublin and Wicklow) of people being very intolerant to non-nationals working in retail. This will also influence a decision. (even though it shouldn't! )

Just some rambling thoughts.

[MidlandsM]

Originally Posted by Vaarikas

Also, if I was to report advertisements like these, which would be the best place?

......report all you like, there is now law being broken.

[Procrastastudy]

You could try http://www.equality.ie/en/Home/

[donkey balls]

I don't see how people can/could report companies for not hiring a person who does not speak English to a good level,There are loads of occupations that state a person applying for a job must have a good English language proficiency level..
These jobs rely on people having a good level of English in order for them to do their jobs, you only have to look at the doctor's the HSE took on some time ago there English was very poor.
I really don't see the problem in companies advertising jobs which state native/good verbal English required.

[greendom]

Originally Posted by donkey balls

I really don't see the problem in companies advertising jobs which state native/good verbal English required.

Huge difference between asking for good verbal English and native English. Asking for native English discounts anyone who has English as a 2nd language, regardless of how well they speak it.

I not sure if its breaking any discrimination law but if it isn't it's about as close to the line that you can get.

[Procrastastudy]

Originally Posted by donkey balls

I don't see how people can/could report companies for not hiring a person who does not speak English to a good level,There are loads of occupations that state a person applying for a job must have a good English language proficiency level..
These jobs rely on people having a good level of English in order for them to do their jobs, you only have to look at the doctor's the HSE took on some time ago there English was very poor.
I really don't see the problem in companies advertising jobs which state native/good verbal English required.

An example - A Professor of English at the University of Moscow and a I apply for the same job. They refuse him on the solely basis he's a non-native speaker. Fair?

You have to give native it's ordinary meaning. If they said excellent, impeccable, native level - it would be fine. What these companies seem to be doing is to exempt non-nationals by requiring English as a first language.

Originally Posted by greendom

Huge difference between asking for good verbal English and native English. Asking for native English discounts anyone who has English as a 2nd language, regardless of how well they speak it.

I not sure if its breaking any discrimination law but if it isn't it's about as close to the line that you can get.

I'm also not saying refusing a candidate because their English wasn't as good as another is wrong either. We do it all the time when differentiating between native speakers!

[greendom]

Originally Posted by Procrastastudy

An example - A Professor of English at the University of Moscow and a I apply for the same job. They refuse him on the solely basis he's a non-native speaker. Fair?

You have to give native it's ordinary meaning. If they said excellent, impeccable, native level - it would be fine. What these companies seem to be doing is to exempt non-nationals by requiring English as a first language.



I'm also not saying refusing a candidate because their English wasn't as good as another is wrong either. We do it all the time when differentiating between native speakers!

Absolutely, there's nothing wrong with using how well someone speaks English as a criterium, the problem is when you preclude anyone who doesn't have English as their mother tongue.