[equivariant]

From today's indo

http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/...n-3200263.html

yet another example of the damage inflicted by the muddled thinking of the religious.
It's also interesting that this article is deemed acceptable enough to warrant (relatively uncritical)
discussion in our national media. One might imagine that 20 years ago, such a report would never have seen
the light of day, or if it did, it would have been lambasted by the church before it ever got to the pages of the
indo.


(maybe this should be in 'Hazards ...' but it might be interesting enough to warrant its own thread)

[haulagebasher]

Yeah it's a terrible delusion they get themselves into and totally selfish too.This article brings to mind the case of Baby K in the USA. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_K . In this case a diagnosis was made early in the pregnancy, usuing ultrasound, that the baby had anacephaly (a monstrosity where the baby has no crainium or brain). Absolutely no chance whatsoever of survival or even developing any semblence of awareness. Anyway the mother demanded to go to term and baby was born. She defied medical advice and insisted on long term artificial life support until the courts finally ruled that it be switched off when the “child” was nearly 3. And why did she do it?? RELIGION

[Sir Digby Chicken Caesar]

parents desperately clinging to hope their children won't die?

what bastards

[Stercus Accidit]

Originally Posted by Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

parents desperately clinging to hope their children won't die?

what bastards

Sarcasm, how unlike you.

[ShooterSF]

Originally Posted by Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

parents desperately clinging to hope their children won't die?

what bastards

Don't be silly. It's the issue of needless suffering people put their child through when there's no hope. I'm not for the life of me going to suggest realising and accepting that should be an easy thing to do but it's something I think people should try to do. We put humans through more suffering than we'd let any other animal go through.

On the topic it still strikes me as strange that this articles is not about atheists as it would make more logical sense. We're the ones (ignoring the atheist who believes in the AL) who think this is the only existence we have where as for many religious not only will their child stop suffering the will go to a better blissful existence where someday they will be reunited for eternity. You'd think we'd be the ones hoping against hope really. Still I guess human nature takes precedent at a time like this and even religions claims can't ease it.

[equivariant]

Originally Posted by Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

parents desperately clinging to hope their children won't die? willing to inflict pain on others because of irrational beliefs

what bastards

FYP.

Believe me, as a parent I know it would break my heart to watch my child die, but it would break my heart even more to watch my child suffer needlessly and to put all her other family members through needless anguish. It's funny how the religious, who often proudly proclaim that death is just a transition to the 'afterlife', are the ones who will deny its reality most fervently in the face of all evidence and reason.

[Galvasean]

Two things from your post shooter, that I was going to bring up:

Originally Posted by ShooterSF

We put humans through more suffering than we'd let any other animal go through.

It always strikes me as strange how when a dog, cat or hamster is terminally ill and in terrible pain we choose the less painful option (which is usually letting them die / 'putting them down') as it is considered the humane thing to do, but when it is other humans in the same situation we, by in large, rarely even consider the 'humane' option.

Originally Posted by ShooterSF

On the topic it still strikes me as strange that this articles is not about atheists as it would make more logical sense. We're the ones (ignoring the atheist who believes in the AL) who think this is the only existence we have where as for many religious not only will their child stop suffering the will go to a better blissful existence where someday they will be reunited for eternity. You'd think we'd be the ones hoping against hope really. Still I guess human nature takes precedent at a time like this and even religions claims can't ease it.

It always strikes me as strange how religious people seem more likely to cling on to life, any life regardless of how painful / uncomfortable, despite their claims to knowing that death is but the beginning and a much more blissful existence awaits. Studies have shown that non-believers tend to be better at 'letting go' in such situations, despite there being no pt of gold waiting for them at the end of the rainbow. I suppose in an atheists case, no life would be considered better than a very painful and undignified one?
In the case of the religious who cannot let go despite the fact that their beliefs tell them that an eternity of bliss awaits, one wonders if they truly believe at all?

[krudler]

Originally Posted by Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

parents desperately clinging to hope their children won't die?

what bastards

but in the Baby K case the affliction is a fatal disease, anencephaly is where a foetus develops with most or all of its brain missing, most are aborted or die during childbirth, that woman kept a child alive with zero quality of life for nearly 3 years. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anencephaly (pic of a newborn with Anencephaly in link so might be a bit disturbing).

We shoot horses who break their leg yet put people through months or years of tortuous medical treatment and for what?

[Northclare]

Originally Posted by Galvasean

Two things from your post shooter, that I was going to bring up:

It always strikes me as strange how when a dog, cat or hamster is terminally ill and in terrible pain we choose the less painful option (which is usually letting them die / 'putting them down') as it is considered the humane thing to do, but when it is other humans in the same situation we, by in large, rarely even consider the 'humane' option.

It always strikes me as strange how religious people seem more likely to cling on to life, any life regardless of how painful / uncomfortable, despite their claims to knowing that death is but the beginning and a much more blissful existence awaits. Studies have shown that non-believers tend to be better at 'letting go' in such situations, despite there being no pt of gold waiting for them at the end of the rainbow. I suppose in an atheists case, no life would be considered better than a very painful and undignified one?
In the case of the religious who cannot let go despite the fact that their beliefs tell them that an eternity of bliss awaits, one wonders if they truly believe at all?

Can you copy and paste a link of those Studies Sean thanks.

[legspin]

Never underestimate the lengths a parent will go to to keep their child alive, especially when the cause is hopeless and to all intents and purposes already lost. Grief can cause people to do strange things.

[Jernal]

Originally Posted by Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

parents desperately clinging to hope their children won't die?

what bastards

If their child was shot in the leg, foot, heart, head, arm and torso, they'd have no objection. The problem is these diseases can be quite complicated and invisible. The person on the outside, including the doctor, is often left completely oblivious to the actual suffering the sufferer goes through. The doctor though is able to imagine it a little.

I get it, it's great that parents want their kids to survive, but there comes a point when that just inflicts needless excruciating torture and torment on the child.

[aidan24326]

Originally Posted by Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

parents desperately clinging to hope their children won't die?

what bastards

It depends on the situation. Where there's hope you'll cling to that hope of course and that's understandable but keeping a child artificially alive where their prognosis is extremely bleak is just plain selfish.

I'm sure being told your baby has anencephaly is devestating but it's difficult to see what the mother was trying to achieve by keeping the baby superficially 'alive' when it had no chance at all of ever living anything resembling a human life. I'd accept her mental state could have been anything though.

Originally Posted by Galvasean

It always strikes me as strange how when a dog, cat or hamster is terminally ill and in terrible pain we choose the less painful option (which is usually letting them die / 'putting them down') as it is considered the humane thing to do, but when it is other humans in the same situation we, by in large, rarely even consider the 'humane' option.

This is something that's always baffled me. But there's no doubt whatsoever that it's religiously influenced.

Take the case of Tony Nicklinson in England, who has the nightmarish condition known as 'Locked-in-Syndrome'

Originally Posted by wiki

Locked-in syndrome is a condition in which a patient is aware and awake but cannot move or communicate verbally due to complete paralysis of nearly all voluntary muscles in the body except for the eyes. Total locked-in syndrome is a version of locked-in syndrome where the eyes are paralyzed as well

He's been fighting in the UK Courts for several years to be allowed to die, as he says, 'with dignity'. As he finds his situation completely miserable and intolerable (not difficult to imagine why).

So far he's basically being told that a decision to allow this could only be taken at parliamentary level, which of course would be subject to all the usual political bullsh1t and probably drag on for so long he'll be dead anyway. And of course the Bishops would drone on about interfering with God's will.

Multiple messages to his twitter account make references to God's plan, God's will, God's purpose for him etc etc So he's supposed to accept a life of intolerable misery because that's what God actually wants? WTF are these people on? If Locked in Syndrome is God's plan for me then God can seriously fcuk right off.

[MrPudding]

I have always found it interesting that humans seem to be excluded from being treated humanely, when it comes to medical treatment. Pets - treat them humanely. Humans - make them suffer. That does bug me.

MrP

[aidan24326]

Slightly off-thread, but:


Coincidentally, the guy I mentioned in a previous post, who has Locked-In Syndrome, had his High Court legal bid to be allowed end his life rejected today.

Originally Posted by Yahoo

Locked-in syndrome sufferer Tony Nicklinson has been left "devastated and heartbroken" after losing his High Court battle for the legal right to end his life when he chooses with a doctor's help.

Mr Nicklinson's wife, Jane - standing by her weeping husband's side - described the decision as "one-sided".

She said: "You can see from Tony's reaction he's absolutely heartbroken."
They now plan to appeal against the decision and hope they will be able to organise a hearing before the end of the year

http://uk.lifestyle.yahoo.com/locked...132622494.html


Yet if your pet cat or rabbit was suffering with no hope of recovery you'd be fully expected to give them a humane death??

[haulagebasher]

Yes those anacephalic baby pictures are horrendous. What a monstrous affliction. However some rare cases do survive on their own. Example being Nicholas Coke who has an enclosed cranium but has no brain. Funnily enough though, his eyes move in unision and he makes various facial expression. There must be some bits of brain there, especially with the eyes seemingly being able to move somwhat coherently. Limb movements too. See: http://goo.gl/70NVN for details.OTOH, baby K and others have a more monstrous version with an apparently open skull.An equally if not more terrifying mostrosity is the "harlequin baby" - absolutely fightful stuff, but strangely interesting. Going even more off topic still is the condition "'schistosomus reflexus" - where a fetus is born wholly or partially inside out. Usually happens to calfs and the photos are most horrifying. Apparently, sometimes the calf can be still alive and moving when born - terrifying, t'would be like something out of an alien abduction film.